London Fare Zones - Contactless Payment Start 16 Sept 14

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CNash

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My understanding was that TFL requires name, address etc. for Oyster deposit refunds in order to stop people handing in lost or stolen cards and getting £5 for them.
 
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Abpj17

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island - I think you are taking it rather too literally.

Everyone is subject one way or another - it is a crime to launder money or to assist/not report money laundering. Organisations that move money - such as the times you listed- have a greater level of regulation where they are expect to vet their customers and transactions.

A site quoted a TfL letter that said:
Regarding the refund of the£3.00 card deposit, I can advise that as from 19 March 2006, these deposits can be refunded at a tube station ticket office. The deposits were previously processed via the central refunds department because they were classified as 'anonymous funds'.

Consequently, refunds had to meet anti money-laundering regulations which required that deposits be refunded in this way, rather than through individual tube station ticket offices. However, as the deposit is no longer defined as anonymous funds, we can now process deposit refunds at ticket windows.
 

island

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island - I think you are taking it rather too literally.

Everyone is subject one way or another - it is a crime to launder money or to assist/not report money laundering. Organisations that move money - such as the times you listed- have a greater level of regulation where they are expect to vet their customers and transactions.

A site quoted a TfL letter that said:
TfL can say what it likes. Nothing in any regulation requires it to seek or take proof of name or address for refunds. Department stores don't require it if you take something back, for example. I remain to be convinced that TfL's policy is anything other than attempting to obstruct people from getting money that's rightly theirs. And really - with a £95 maximum refund, nobody's going to launder money through an Oyster card anyway.
"anyone else been unable to add an AMEX card to their online account"
Strange. Worked seamlessly for me.
Likewise.
 

Brucey

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I was on the DLR yesterday and noticed the PSA (Passenger Service Agent) using a new device to check Oyster/ITSO/contactless cards. It looked more like a PDA with a (what looked like) much larger colour screen. Also looked as though there was a stylus, so there are presumably multiple options/menus.

Everyone's cards were checked very quickly, so I'm assuming there were no contactless cards on my train.
 

MikeWh

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Why is TfL going for contactless and not just sticking with Oyster?
It's more convenient for occasional use. No deposit for the card. No need to top up. No balance earning TfL interest between uses. Less likelihood of losing the card from one trip to the next.
 

Clip

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I was on the DLR yesterday and noticed the PSA (Passenger Service Agent) using a new device to check Oyster/ITSO/contactless cards. It looked more like a PDA with a (what looked like) much larger colour screen. Also looked as though there was a stylus, so there are presumably multiple options/menus.

Everyone's cards were checked very quickly, so I'm assuming there were no contactless cards on my train.
it also has a slot in the top to read contactless payment cards but I forget what else they do.

By contrast LO are still using the older readers for ticket checks.
 

CyrusWuff

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Why is TfL going for contactless and not just sticking with Oyster?
Ultimately it'll be down to saving money. They're not providing the cards, the issuing banks are, "aftersales" (such as it is) is almost entirely performed by the Helpdesk/website or card issuers, and the only thing front line staff can do is cancel the last touch, and then only if they have one of the new handheld verifiers.

Said devices provide the same information as the old MoVIE devices for Oyster (i.e. the last 8 PAYG journeys, last 3 PAYG topups, up to 3 seasons and any discounts), and whether a CPC has been read successfully.
 
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talldave

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it also has a slot in the top to read contactless payment cards but I forget what else they do.

By contrast LO are still using the older readers for ticket checks.
Why would you need a "slot" for contactless cards?
 

En4orc3R

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Given the relatively small values involved, it wouldn't really be a very effective way of laundering money. It could be in case the card is subsequently reported as stolen though - otherwise anyone finding a card could take it into the station and claim £5 + any credit. A bit like we used to do with pop bottles when I was a kid :oops:
Exactly.
When you purchase an Oyster, you are encouraged to register it so that if it is lost or stolen it can only be refunded by the owner.
If you loose an unregistered Oyster, its lost, includig any pay as you go balance and the price of any tickets loaded.

So register your Oyster (if you are still using one now).

With the amount of 'dippers' on the Network, if TfL were to refund unregistered Oyster's all it would do is encourage them to steal your Oyster for the refund.

CPC hand held checking devices cannot capture the whole CPC number (data protection) but they can check that you have correctly validated for the journey you are taking.
For instance on London Buses, the new device is put onto the Oyster reader and captures the Oyster and CPC data for that trip and is transferred to the device so when the inspection is done your CPC can be matched if correctly validated on boarding.

London Buses have prosecuted for unvalidated CPC the same as for unvalidated Oyster or no ticket or pass produced.
 
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tsr

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Why would you need a "slot" for contactless cards?
I'm yet to have a play with one of the devices, but my understanding is that the slot is not strictly necessary for reading contactless cards, but rather that the readers have them built it. No doubt somebody will correct me if I'm wrong (or I'll come back here and post again later!).

As for London Overground, some contractor RPIs are using the newer-style readers to which we refer.
 

Be3G

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London Buses have prosecuted for unvalidated CPC the same as for unvalidated Oyster or no ticket or pass produced.
I hope none of the prosecutions were for someone who, expecting to be able to pay cash, had a kind stranger pay for them via CPC but the good samaritan left the bus before the cash-less passenger finished their journey…
 

MikeWh

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CPC hand held checking devices cannot capture the whole CPC number (data protection) but they can check that you have correctly validated for the journey you are taking.
For instance on London Buses, the new device is put onto the Oyster reader and captures the Oyster and CPC data for that trip and is transferred to the device so when the inspection is done your CPC can be matched if correctly validated on boarding.

London Buses have prosecuted for unvalidated CPC the same as for unvalidated Oyster or no ticket or pass produced.
Whilst that will work on buses, it will not be possible on trains or trams.
 

hassaanhc

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On Friday a couple of SWT RPIs (between Clapham Junction and Waterloo!) were checking with the new readers. Also got checked elsewhere recently with the new reader but can't remember where!
 

En4orc3R

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There must be a way of ticket checking on those modes?
I'll ask around and post here if I get an answer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
They must be able to capture the validated data remotely or the devices themselves can pick up a mark left there through validation?

Again, I'll have to enquire further with that.
 

PermitToTravel

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I'm yet to have a play with one of the devices, but my understanding is that the slot is not strictly necessary for reading contactless cards, but rather that the readers have them built it. No doubt somebody will correct me if I'm wrong (or I'll come back here and post again later!).

As for London Overground, some contractor RPIs are using the newer-style readers to which we refer.
The device just needs to know the card's number, which can be gotten from the chip if it's (in)conveniently refusing to communicate contactlessly
 

Tetchytyke

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They must be able to capture the validated data remotely or the devices themselves can pick up a mark left there through validation?

Again, I'll have to enquire further with that.
The way I've seen it explained is that the device will record every card that it checks, but not in "real time". It's only at the end of the day when, in the back office, they apply a maximum fare to any cards which were checked by the device and had not been properly touched in.
 

MikeWh

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The way I've seen it explained is that the device will record every card that it checks, but not in "real time". It's only at the end of the day when, in the back office, they apply a maximum fare to any cards which were checked by the device and had not been properly touched in.
Correct. TfL do not write anything to the CPC. I don't even think that the zero charge transaction counts towards any tally of contactless transactions. The idea being that no card should be rejected by needing a PIN entry.
 

londonbridge

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I hope none of the prosecutions were for someone who, expecting to be able to pay cash, had a kind stranger pay for them via CPC but the good samaritan left the bus before the cash-less passenger finished their journey…
From previous discussion I understood the readers were set to reject multiple touches from the same card. Therefore if the "good samaritan" had already touched in for their own fare with a CPC and then, several stops down the line, offered to pay another person's fare, wouldn't the card be rejected? Or are they only programmed to reject multiple touches made within a certain time limit? If, however, the good samaritan had a CPC AND an Oyster, they could use whichever one they had not used for their own fare to pay the fare of the other passenger, but again if they then left the bus first and an RPI then boarded, that would still leave the second passenger in the position of being unable to show a valid ticket or other travel authority.
 

Feathers44

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From previous discussion I understood the readers were set to reject multiple touches from the same card. Therefore if the "good samaritan" had already touched in for their own fare with a CPC and then, several stops down the line, offered to pay another person's fare, wouldn't the card be rejected? Or are they only programmed to reject multiple touches made within a certain time limit? If, however, the good samaritan had a CPC AND an Oyster, they could use whichever one they had not used for their own fare to pay the fare of the other passenger, but again if they then left the bus first and an RPI then boarded, that would still leave the second passenger in the position of being unable to show a valid ticket or other travel authority.
It's an interesting point and one that would never have occurred to me. I'm not in the habit of paying other people's bus fares but I've never looked at Oyster in terms of being able to 'show' a valid ticket.

I guess the reality is that I'd only ever doube pay for someone else who was actually travelling with me but it's still worth noting.
 

londonbridge

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I guess the reality is that I'd only ever double pay for someone else who was actually traveling with me but it's still worth noting.
Which, as I've suggested, would only be possible if you had a CPC AND an Oyster, (or two CPC's), as you couldn't use the same card twice when boarding the bus with your traveling companion. This goes back to the point I raised a while back about how the situation would be handled if one person wished or intended to pay the fares of several people for whatever reason-although I took on board the reply made at the time, which was that it would be unusual for such a situation to arise these days, as the majority of people will have either their own Oyster or CPC.
 

Be3G

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If, however, the good samaritan had a CPC AND an Oyster, they could use whichever one they had not used for their own fare to pay the fare of the other passenger, but again if they then left the bus first and an RPI then boarded, that would still leave the second passenger in the position of being unable to show a valid ticket or other travel authority.
Yep, this is the scenario I'm thinking of (and have seen played out) – habitual Oyster user boards the bus, later on someone wanting to pay cash boards, Oyster user twigs they have a CPC which can be used to pay for the newly boarding passenger, the grateful passenger gives the CPC owner the cash for the bus fare, everyone's happy. Until a ticket inspector boards, which is the only aspect of this that I haven't yet seen play out.

I would add though that this only works if an Oyster traveller ‘lends’ someone their CPC; in the opposite arrangement, it could be against the rules as Oysters are strictly bound to be used by the named cardholder only unless they're PAYG with no discount entitlement.
 

infobleep

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Someone's card didn't work on the bus the other day so a formed gave her, her CPC. The bus driver didn't complain. Could they have been breaking the law or at best the regulations governing all of this?

What happened with children and parents you use a CPC?
 

En4orc3R

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Yep, this is the scenario I'm thinking of (and have seen played out) – habitual Oyster user boards the bus, later on someone wanting to pay cash boards, Oyster user twigs they have a CPC which can be used to pay for the newly boarding passenger, the grateful passenger gives the CPC owner the cash for the bus fare, everyone's happy. Until a ticket inspector boards, which is the only aspect of this that I haven't yet seen play out.

I would add though that this only works if an Oyster traveller ‘lends’ someone their CPC; in the opposite arrangement, it could be against the rules as Oysters are strictly bound to be used by the named cardholder only unless they're PAYG with no discount entitlement.
Every passenger has to have a ticket (or have paid for their travel) and to have it ready for inspection at any point in their journey, so if a Good Samaritan pays for your journey it is also worth getting a contact number or email address of that Good Samaritan because if he/she gets off before you, the inspector will report you for 'failing to produce' a valid ticket.
However, you contact the Good Samaritan later and get confirmation from him/her that you both had a valid ticket. No further action required.

If however, you cannot prove someone paid your fare and got off, you risk a Penalty Fare or worse, a prosecution!

Therefore before you board, always make sure you have or can pay your own fare.

With CPC, only the owner should be using their own CPC, inspectors can withdraw any ticket, pass or Oyster as that is written within the Conditions of Carriage, however, they cannot withdraw CPC's
If you use someone else's CPC you risk Police being called!
 

Feathers44

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Every passenger has to have a ticket (or have paid for their travel) and to have it ready for inspection at any point in their journey, so if a Good Samaritan pays for your journey it is also worth getting a contact number or email address of that Good Samaritan because if he/she gets off before you, the inspector will report you for 'failing to produce' a valid ticket.
However, you contact the Good Samaritan later and get confirmation from him/her that you both had a valid ticket. No further action required.

If however, you cannot prove someone paid your fare and got off, you risk a Penalty Fare or worse, a prosecution!

Therefore before you board, always make sure you have or can pay your own fare.

With CPC, only the owner should be using their own CPC, inspectors can withdraw any ticket, pass or Oyster as that is written within the Conditions of Carriage, however, they cannot withdraw CPC's
If you use someone else's CPC you risk Police being called!
While that makes sense, it is never publicised and once again puts the passenger at risk of prosecution for something that simply isn't understood. It's frightening really, at least in the sense that there are so many rules 'out there' that we risk falling foul of that simply aren't advertised.

(I'm not somplaining that the rules are 'wrong' or 'unfair', simply that if we are supposed to abide by them then we need to be aware of them.)
 

infobleep

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While that makes sense, it is never publicised and once again puts the passenger at risk of prosecution for something that simply isn't understood. It's frightening really, at least in the sense that there are so many rules 'out there' that we risk falling foul of that simply aren't advertised.

(I'm not somplaining that the rules are 'wrong' or 'unfair', simply that if we are supposed to abide by them then we need to be aware of them.)
A conspiracy theorist might say they want people not to understand it so they can make additional revenue out of them.

Personally I don't think that is the case. They just haven't thought it through well enough.
 

Be3G

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If however, you cannot prove someone paid your fare and got off, you risk a Penalty Fare or worse, a prosecution!
As someone has suggested before (can't remember if it was on this forum or elsewhere), a good solution to all this prosecution malarky would be if TfL allowed a ticket to be printed off on a bus when a CPC is used. But no, that would be TfL making people's lives too easy. :roll:
 

jon0844

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Yes, a printed ticket would solve the problem.. but for now, it's quite obvious that nobody can lend their contact less card to another person in their family or friend to use, as your issuer doesn't allow it. I'm sure loads of people do it though, with partners knowing the PIN code to make purchases over £20.

And if someone else paid for you, you'd fall foul of the rules on having a ticket/card you can present.

The first thing might be obvious, although people would think TfL wouldn't care (and they probably wouldn't, even if they had any way of knowing) but the second thing is something that possibly people wouldn't think of. They will think that tapping a card to pay means they've paid and that's it.

It wouldn't be hard to explain why this assumption is wrong and I expect most people would then see why, but until then...
 
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