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London - Gatwick fare differentials

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yorkie

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With regard to 3), the question is whether it is legitimate, in effect, to walk (nominally at least) from Denmark Hill to Victoria (not via Battersea Park) in order to abide by the Southern-only restriction on a route (not via Battersea Park) operated by Southeastern.
Of course it is, you could use any alternative method of transport you wish. However you don't actually have to do that portion of the journey, as break of journey is permitted, which means starting & finishing short is allowed.

If I have a London - York GC Only ticket, and board a Bradford service and alight at Doncaster, I can either purchase a new Doncaster - York ticket to continue my journey, or I can simply finish short. If anyone suggests you can't do that, then I'd want to see a very good reason and where it's documented that you can't. It would absolutely defy logic to say that you can't do that!
 
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hairyhandedfool

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....The only one i'm not sure about is St Pancras as the rule south of the river is normally that St Pancras is only a London Terminal from the north - but is this a valid rule?....

You can only go to/from or via Farringdon on FCC (Thameslink) services when the ticket is (a) valid for cross London transfer, (b) to London Thameslink, or (c) to a specifically named station. This is noted in the NFM/FRPP/The Manual and on the NRES website.
 

johnnycache

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I'd like to understand a bit more about when you can "walk" (ie travel by some means not covered by your train ticket)

i) if you are making a journey from A to D via B and C its ok to cover A to B or B to C or C to D by some other means of transport as long as the train ticket permits break of journey

ii) its not ok if your ticket does not allow break of journey

iii) in the case we were talking about where the passenger holds a ticket from London Bridge to Gatwick Airport it is OK to simply start the journey at Victoria instead as long as Victoria is on a permitted route between London Bridge and Gatwick Airport and no double back is involved

iv) If Victoria did not qualify as being on a permitted route then walking there does not make it permitted.

Anything i'm getting wrong here?
 

hairyhandedfool

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....Anything i'm getting wrong here?

Well.....

....iii) in the case we were talking about where the passenger holds a ticket from London Bridge to Gatwick Airport it is OK to simply start the journey at Victoria instead as long as Victoria is on a permitted route between London Bridge and Gatwick Airport and no double back is involved....

A doubleback is only not allowed if you are using a mapped route. If a direct train or the shortest route doublebacks, it is allowed.

In this case though I think we can safely say it isn't the shortest route and I doubt there is a direct train via Victoria.
 

craigwilson

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St Pancras is only a London Terminal from the north - but is this a valid rule?
You can only go to/from or via Farringdon on FCC (Thameslink) services when the ticket is (a) valid for cross London transfer, (b) to London Thameslink, or (c) to a specifically named station. This is noted in the NFM/FRPP/The Manual and on the NRES website.

And so for the purposes of the London Terminals question, approaching St Pancras from the south, after leaving City Thameslink (a London Terminal), you'd have to pass through a non-London Terminal (Farringdon) to get to it. Therefore it cannot be a London Terminal from that direction as any "To: London Terminals" tickets are no longer valid after City Thameslink.

Is that a correct reading of what that rule means for London Terminals tickets?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
A doubleback is only not allowed if you are using a mapped route. If a direct train or the shortest route doublebacks, it is allowed.

Or of course if an easement specifically allows it....
 

johnnycache

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Help me here. Not sure how a shortest route could double back. It would always be shorter still without the doubleback.
 

clagmonster

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I will illustrate with a couple of (non Gatwick related examples).

The shortest route from Chathill to Berwick is to double back to Alnmouth, as all trains to Chathill terminate there, yet the line continues.

Similarly, the shortest route from Deighton to Brighouse involve doubling back between Deighton and Brighouse as no Huddersfield-Brighouse trains call at Deighton (I am assuming it is shorter to do the double back rather than go via Mirfield to illustrate the point - I suspect it is anyway).
 

johnnycache

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Ok i get it. In cases where you want to go from A to B but trains from A don't stop at B so you have to travel A to C and then C to B.
 

yorkie

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Ok i get it. In cases where you want to go from A to B but trains from A don't stop at B so you have to travel A to C and then C to B.
Yep, that's right.

Dore - Chesterfield, for example. The ATOC data contains an error, and mistakenly believes this can be done avoiding Sheffield. Not only are there no trains avoiding Sheffield, but it would actually require a shunt reversal, so is impossible in regular passenger service. They 'fixed' it by putting in an easement allowing doubling-back, however this situation has other, unintended consequences (which I won't go into here) that both benefit and dis-benefit customers. The shortest route is, in fact, via Sheffield, regardless of what the ATOC data says.

Another example would be Tutbury & Hatton to Tamworth. You have to go via Derby, as the only trains that call at Peartree are a few trains on the Tutbury route. So the shortest route is via Derby.
 
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