London Liverpool Street to Watford Junction

[Revaulx]

Little bit of confusion here: the 2-car sets with open saloons were ex BR(S) 2-EPB (Bulleid style), the 501s were the BR-style 3-cars that they replaced.

Definitely still 501s when I did my morning’s exploring. 1982 probably.

 

[GS250]

Little bit of confusion here: the 2-car sets with open saloons were ex BR(S) 2-EPB (Bulleid style), the 501s were the BR-style 3-cars that they replaced.

Yes....if a scene told a story it was seeing those 2 car trains on the NLL. It was pretty much in keeping with the time though. Loco hauled was being replaced with 2 car 'sprinters'. Older first gen DMU's were being replaced with swanky but shorter units. Did the 2-EPB's ever work regularly in multiple on that route? I do recall them being criticised for being unfit for purpose, especially during the rush hour. However, as I've mentioned, this was a growing theme. Working in multiple was always promised on busier services with new or replacement units. From memory though, it appeared to be something of a hollow promise across the network.

 

[A0wen]

And they clearly weren't timed for the demand of a 9am-5pm working day (which would very much have been the norm back then and still is to some extent), very much a deliberate rundown.

If you wanted it to be used you'd want an 0845 ish arrival at Liverpool St (enough walking time to arrive most offices by 9) and a departure about 1720.

At that point (mid 80s) the working hours were more likely 9 - 5.30pm particularly in the City.

Curtailing office hours to 5pm wasn't that common until the mid 90s.

 

[Taunton]

Did the 2-EPB's ever work regularly in multiple on that route? I do recall them being criticised for being unfit for purpose, especially during the rush hour. However, as I've mentioned, this was a growing theme. Working in multiple was always promised on busier services with new or replacement units. From memory though, it appeared to be something of a hollow promise across the network.

There's a photo of two sets in multiple on the Wikipedia page for Broad Street station

Broad Street station - geograph.org.uk - 640815 - Broad Street railway station (England) - Wikipedia

Having said (or found) that, I never saw one in multiple at all, nor did I see one ever at Broad Street either, which seemed to be the LMR sets until the final day when they changed over to 313s to Liverpool Street, which was the day they started running through from Richmond to North Woolwich instead.

 

[A0wen]

Yes....if a scene told a story it was seeing those 2 car trains on the NLL. It was pretty much in keeping with the time though. Loco hauled was being replaced with 2 car 'sprinters'. Older first gen DMU's were being replaced with swanky but shorter units. Did the 2-EPB's ever work regularly in multiple on that route? I do recall them being criticised for being unfit for purpose, especially during the rush hour. However, as I've mentioned, this was a growing theme. Working in multiple was always promised on busier services with new or replacement units. From memory though, it appeared to be something of a hollow promise across the network.

Worth remembering that the EPBs were 19.5m / carriage against 17.5m of the 501s.

But I remember using the a few times NLL during the late 80s and early 90s and it was never that busy - off peak finding a seat was never a challenge. And the 313s which replaced them only had slightly more seats despite being 3 car, though those at least had better standing accommodation.

 

[Irascible]

Broad Street was damaged in the war and never fully repaired, IIRC.

Not so much Broad St itself, but the Poplar line was heavily bombed & never reopened to passengers. I'm a little surprised trains didn't run Richmond-Stratford before they actually started doing so.

I might have used the Watford train once without knowing it on the section it shared with the rest of the trains, but never did go through Primrose Hill.

 

[jfollows]

Network SouthEast ran services from London Liverpool Street to Watford Junction via the Graham Road Curve, North London Line, Primrose Hill and Watford DC Line from 1986 to 1992. What stations did it serve, what were the journey times from each station and the total journey time?

Today I got a working timetable for the route 2/10/89 to 13/5/90.

For example, 2M99 17:49 Liverpool Street to Watford, calling at Dalston (Kingsland), Canonbury, Highbury & Islington, Caledonian Road & Barnsbury, Camden Road, Primrose Hill, South Hampstead, Kilburn High Road, Queen's Park, Kensal Green, Willesden Junction Low Level and all stations to Watford arriving at 18:59.

There were also trains:

• 2M91 09:01 Liverpool Street to Willesden Junction Low Level (09:38)
• 2M89 10:40 Liverpool Street to Willesden Junction Low Level (11:17)
• 2M95 16:22 Liverpool Street to Willesden Junction Low Level (16:57)

Up services

• 2L58 07:49 Watford Junction to Liverpool Street (08:54)
• 2L60 09:58 Willesden Junction Low Level to Liverpool Street (10:31)
• 2L02 15:37 Willesden Junction Low Level to Liverpool Street (16:14)
• 2L04 17:06 Willesden Junction Low Level to Liverpool Street (17:38)

I recall travelling on 2M99 soon after its introduction; I can't recall how far I went on it but probably as far as Willesden would be my guess.

EDIT Referring back to post #2, the Stratford services had all been removed by my October 1989 timetable. One 313 unit was all that was required for the complete service that remained.

 

[GS250]

Just to resurrect this thread as its fairly closely related.

Did direct services ever run from Watford and then East along the NLL to the like of Hampstead Heath? I know there is a line that joins the Southbound WCML and the Eastbound NLL up but I'm not convinced it was ever DC electrified.

 

[jfollows]

Just to resurrect this thread as its fairly closely related.

Did direct services ever run from Watford and then East along the NLL to the like of Hampstead Heath? I know there is a line that joins the Southbound WCML and the Eastbound NLL up but I'm not convinced it was ever DC electrified.

Yes, see 2B66 07:38 Watford Junction to Broad Street from 1980 wtt attached, I think this is what you mean, EMU Watford-Willesden-Hampstead Heath-Broad Street.
In this timetable there was a mix of services like these and those via Primrose Hill although I think the majority of Watford-Broad Street services went via Primrose Hill.

 

[Taunton]

Just to resurrect this thread as its fairly closely related.

Did direct services ever run from Watford and then East along the NLL to the like of Hampstead Heath? I know there is a line that joins the Southbound WCML and the Eastbound NLL up but I'm not convinced it was ever DC electrified.

Yes, there seemed to be just one or two DC services went this way instead of by Primrose Hill, the link from just east of Willesden Junction Low Level DC line station is still there. One inbound from Watford in the morning peak seemed usual, then serving all the North London line stations. Other terminating services from Broad Street would come down this way from Kensal Rise into the Low Level platforms at Willesden.

 

[30907]

Yes, there seemed to be just one or two DC services went this way instead of by Primrose Hill, the link from just east of Willesden Junction Low Level DC line station is still there. One inbound from Watford in the morning peak seemed usual, then serving all the North London line stations. Other terminating services from Broad Street would come down this way from Kensal Rise into the Low Level platforms at Willesden.

Pre-Covid at least, the connection was still regularly used at beginning and end of service. The connection off the main lines was never electrified on DC (it was electrified AC with the NLL for freight.

 

[GS250]

Thanks for confirming that. Yes a quick google map reveals the link (which would surely have been electrified DC back then) that runs just East of Willesden Jnc LL up to the NLL. This particular link had escaped from my memory completely! The one I had in mind was the line that runs up to the NLL just before Willesden Junction LL. However...I believe this link doesn't touch the DC lines and is presently freight only?

Can partially recall an old image from Harrow and Wealdstone Station that alluded to 'direct' trains to Euston, Broad Street and Hampstead Heath. That's why I popped the question. It did also mention Kew Gardens and Richmond but unless anything has dramatically changed.....that would have required change at Willesden Jnc?

 

[Bald Rick]

it was electrified AC with the NLL for freight.

The City Lines. AC electrified in the late 90s. Quite a complex job due the sectioning and gradient.

The New lines from Willesden LL to Kensal Green were DC electrified st the same time as the NLL.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Pre-Covid at least, the connection was still regularly used at beginning and end of service. The connection off the main lines was never electrified on DC (it was electrified AC with the NLL for freight.

The City Lines. AC electrified in the late 90s. Quite a complex job due the sectioning and gradient.

The New lines from Willesden LL to Kensal Green were DC electrified st the same time as the NLL.

The City Line(s) were identified for a novel "U-Bahn" Speedlink service from Willesden to Peterborough for connections towards other ECML destinations. The first train was a bit of a gala job with 3 diners attached for guests and so on.

Regrettably - as we know Speedlink did not flourish , but an useful bit of electrification till it was further remodelled on the NLL.

 

[StephenHunter]

Got a link with more about that?

 

[Taunton]

but an useful bit of electrification till it was further remodelled on the NLL.

Actually, there seemed to be a number of separate projects along there around the 1990s which broke the passenger service for some long periods, months each time, which just happened to coincide with when I wanted to use it. Do I remember :

- Relining of Hampstead tunnel to suit containers.
- Works for Eurostar that were never used.
- Re-electrification at 25kV.

Maybe others. You are the expert

 

[Bald Rick]

Actually, there seemed to be a number of separate projects along there around the 1990s which broke the passenger service for some long periods, months each time, which just happened to coincide with when I wanted to use it. Do I remember :

- Relining of Hampstead tunnel to suit containers.
- Works for Eurostar that were never used.
- Re-electrification at 25kV.

Maybe others. You are the expert

The latter two are the same project, west of Camden at least.

There was another project to rebuild the NLL (resignal, re electrify, rebuild stations and track) between Camden and Dalston in 2010.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Got a link with more about that?

Afraid not - but I did go out and see it pass through the Harlesden area - a posh train with white roofed MK1 diners and a carefully chosen rake of air braked vehicles (all spotlessly clean) - probably an equally clean 86......

Very much a token working for PR purposes.

 

[StephenHunter]

OK, thanks.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Not for the first time , I regret not keeping a diary !

The long closure of the NLL for Eurostar purposes in 1995 / 1996 overan by no less than 6 months ! - it involved on a total block Willesden HL to Camden Road , and wiring towards Kensington Olympia and Acton Central. Tricky for service provision - which was 2 tph Willesden LL - North Woolwich via Primrose Hill , and 2 tph Camden Road to Stratford (plus some innovative bus provision)

When the line was handed back - we (my own idea) had 313020 named "Parliament Hill" at Hampstead Heath. We were short of Traction Inspectors that day , so I took the first train over it as Operations Manager , carefully getting the driver to break the banner at just the right speed.

 

[Taunton]

The long closure of the NLL for Eurostar purposes in 1995 / 1996 overan by no less than 6 months !

Compared to Crossrail, that's brilliant

2 tph Willesden LL - North Woolwich via Primrose Hill ... (plus some innovative bus provision)

I remember one of those, though it's probably a regular London bus. Saturday afternoon, at unfamiliar to me Swiss Cottage, thought I would, just for the interest, take the bus I saw on the station map, northwards to Hampstead Heath (or Gospel Oak, can't remember which), train round to Canning Town. Single deck bus came, labelled Kings Cross. Well the obvious way from there to Kings Cross is down Finchley Road and along Marylebone Road, so I must be stupidly waiting on the southwards side. Not like me to get that wrong, but I cross the road to the opposite stop. Eventually same route bus comes, for Paddington or somewhere. Ask driver, treated like a know-nothing (the worst bit), cross road again, get to Hampstead Heath station, after quite a long walk as well, having wasted about an hour since Swiss Cottage - closed! By the time I got home the whole afternoon squandered.

And even worse, reading just now that you were running specially 2 tph from South Hampstead, right round the corner from Swiss Cottage, now 25 years later I feel even more aggrieved with myself ...!

 

[nw1]

At that point (mid 80s) the working hours were more likely 9 - 5.30pm particularly in the City.

Curtailing office hours to 5pm wasn't that common until the mid 90s.

Though the term "9 to 5" was in use much before that, for example the songs by Dolly Parton and Sheena Easton were considerably older than that.

In the 80s (while still at school) I always considered 1700 the typical end of the working day, with some variation. The Waterloo peak seemed to cover the period 1700-1830 in the 80s; Waterloo is someway out of the city but that might translate to a 'leave office' time of 1630-1800, average 1715 - so yes, a bit after 1700. The 'prime' peak service on the Portsmouth Direct was the 1750, again translating to a 1720 office end time, so maybe there is something in post-1700 ends to the working day. But that might just have been for diagramming convenience, as the hourly CIG-BEP-CIG set used on the Portsmouth fasts was due into Waterloo around xx25. But I've always thought of 1745 as the "peak of the peak", so that would fit.

I wonder whether Liverpool Street more generally had an earlier peak than other terminals, incidentally, due to being in the City, with extras starting perhaps 1630 and finishing not long after 1800? I do remember travelling on a 1612 extra in 2001 to Colchester, a 4-car 312-operated fast terminating at Colchester Town; for other terminals this would seem quite early for a peak extra.

Definitely still 501s when I did my morning’s exploring. 1982 probably.

I never saw 501s but they were mentioned as still-extant units in the first Ian Allan "Multiple Units" book I received, at Christmas 1982.

 

[Cricketer8for9]

I think your bus was the 46. It was, and still is a route not taken for the end to end journey.