London - Liverpool

[Krispo]

Would this be valid on WSMR at all?

 

[mathmo]

My interpretation of the Routing Guide is that it might well be valid to Tame Bridge Parkway and then you'd have to change there, but not any further. I wait to be corrected though!

 

[me123]

London-Liverpool, on an "Any Permitted" ticket. From the routeing guide:

CC+GC: NO (Shows validity from Marylebone, but not beyond Birmingham)
CH+LC: NO (WCML via Chester)
LC: NO (Direct)
LC+ML: NO (Allows Euston-Wrexham-Liverpool via Shotton)
MA+ML: NO (WCML via Manchester)
MA+NL: NO (WCML via Manchester)
ME+TV: YES, provided you join at or after Wolverhampton

It's not a direct train service.

I have not checked, but I seriously doubt that WSMR provide the shortest route.

There are no relevant easements.

So in short, it would appear that you need to travel to Wolverhampton on the WCML and transfer onto the WSMR service there. You would then need to go onto Liverpool from Wrexham. Quite a complicated scenario!

The only services from Marylebone valid with this ticket terminate at Birmingham; none of the maps show Marylebone-anywhere useful served by WSMR as a valid route. It may be worthwhile checking with WSMR, however. They may well accept the ticket.

EDIT: NXEC appear to be selling tickets for London Marylebone-Liverpool via Wrexham on the 20:03 departure if you play about with it a bit, which suggests to me that it may well be valid. That said, you arrive the next day. This could easily just be a flaw in the system, though.

RE: mathmo's post, I don't really have enough local knowledge to speculate validity at Tame Bridge Parkway.

 

[clagmonster]

London group and Liverpool group are both routing points.
CC+GC:
Marylebone-Wembley Stadium-West Ruislip-High Wycombe-Banbury-Leamington Spa-Coventry-Birmingham-Perry Barr-Walsall-Stafford-Crewe-Runcorn-Hunts Cross-Liverpool
Paddington-Greenford-West Ruislip-High Wycombe-Banbury-Leamington Spa-Coventry-Birmingham-Perry Barr-Walsall-Stafford-Crewe-Runcorn-Hunts Cross-Liverpool
Can also go into Wolverhampton, Stoke, or Warrington on the way on both the above. These would be valid via Wrexham and Shropshire Marylebone-Tame Bridge.

CH+LC
Euston-Willesden Jn-Watford Jn-Bletchley-Rugby-Nuneaton-Tamworth-Lichfield-Rugeley-Stafford-Crewe-Chester-Hooton-Liverpool
Also valid via the West Mids and/or via Stoke. Can use Rugby-Nuneaton-Coventry in any permutation. Can go into Northampton.

LC
Above West coast routes but going Crewe-Runcorn-Hunts Cross-Liverpool.

LC+ML
As above West Coast routes, but can go:
Crewe-Warrington-Hunts Cross-Liverpool.
Crewe-Warrington-Earlstown-Huyton-Liverpool.
Crewe-Chester-Shotton-Wrexham-Liverpool

MA+ML
As above West Coast routes, but can go:
Stoke/Crewe-Manchester-Wigan-Huyton/Kirkby-Liverpool
Stoke/Crewe-Manchester-Newton le Willows-Earlstown-Huyton-Liverpool

ME+TV
Euston-Bletchley-Birmingham-Wolves-Shrewsbury-Wrexham-Liverpool (via either Chester and Hooton or Shotton).
So this one allows you WSMR Wolves-Wrexham.

I assume from Runcorn-Liverpool always going via Hunts Cross, that ATOC don't actually know where Hunts Cross is.

 

[John @ home]

CC+GC: NO (Shows validity from Marylebone, but not beyond Birmingham)

That's not quite right. Map GC shows Marlebone - Birmingham Group is OK by both WSMR routes, via Coventry or Solihull. Aston and New Street are both members of Birmingham Group and every WSMR service passes through one of these so we're OK to Birmingham. Beyond that, every WSMR service goes from Birmingham Group to Walsall Group (Tame Bridge Parkway) and most go to Wolverhampton, all of which are on map CC. But then, if one has come from Marylebone, it's only valid to go on to Liverpool via Crewe, not via Shrewsbury.

ME+TV: YES, provided you join at or after Wolverhampton

Tame Bridge Parkway is part of Walsall Group, so ME+TV show that Tame Bridge Parkway - Wrexham is permitted with a London - Liverpool route Any Permitted ticket, provided London - Tame Bridge Parkway is undertaken from Euston, not Marylebone.

In conclusion, every inch of the WSMR route is part of a permitted route from London to Liverpool, but there is no route that allows you to go the whole way Marylebone - Wrexham. In reality, nobody is likely to complain.

Just another example of why the National Routeing Guide is not fit for purpose.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I assume from Runcorn-Liverpool always going via Hunts Cross, that ATOC don't actually know where Hunts Cross is.

Services between Runcorn and Liverpool Group pass through Hunts Cross Group because Hunts Cross Group comprises Hunts Cross and Liverpool South Parkway.

 

[OwlMan]

That's not quite right. Map GC shows Marlebone - Birmingham Group is OK by both WSMR routes, via Coventry or Solihull. Aston and New Street are both members of Birmingham Group and every WSMR service passes through one of these so we're OK to Birmingham. Beyond that, every WSMR service goes from Birmingham Group to Walsall Group (Tame Bridge Parkway) and most go to Wolverhampton, all of which are on map CC. But then, if one has come from Marylebone, it's only valid to go on to Liverpool via Crewe, not via Shrewsbury.

As you are not allowed to leave the train at Wolverhampton (pick up only) it is not a valid route via Wolverhampton.


If you get off at Tame Bridge you can not get a train back to Birmingham as you will be doubling back through Hamstead.
You can not go via Walsall & Rugeley as the route is not valid via Rugeley (on map CC).
You can travel to Walsall and then direct to Wolverhampton - but that is only 1 train per day (1936 from Walsall)

- In other words WSMR is effectively not usuable between Marylebone and Tame Bridge although you could get off at Banbury and then use XC or Chiltern to Birmingham.



Peter

 

[me123]

That's not quite right. Map GC shows Marlebone - Birmingham Group is OK by both WSMR routes, via Coventry or Solihull. Aston and New Street are both members of Birmingham Group and every WSMR service passes through one of these so we're OK to Birmingham. Beyond that, every WSMR service goes from Birmingham Group to Walsall Group (Tame Bridge Parkway) and most go to Wolverhampton, all of which are on map CC. But then, if one has come from Marylebone, it's only valid to go on to Liverpool via Crewe, not via Shrewsbury.

Yes, I can see that now. In my sleep -deprived state, I think I assumed that the train had to call at Birmingham. (Don't ask where I got that drivel from; I really don't know!) But also see ColbyPS's post above. I had not accounted for Tame Bridge Parkway in my initial considerations as mentioned, and "ignored" Wolverhampton.

 

[Krispo]

Thanks a lot for your help everyone.

I'm still undecided as to what I will do.

 

[clagmonster]

Is Banbury not pick up only going northbound, so you couldn't get off there.
I know see the point about Hunts Cross, thank you John.
If you pick a weekend when the southern west coast is shut, some Wrexham services will stop additionally at New St. This coming Monday is an example of this. Due to the engineering works, it is possible that travel will be vllowed from Marylebone on the routes normally allowed only from Euston. You would need to check the advice from Virmin.

 

[John @ home]

As you are not allowed to leave the train at Wolverhampton (pick up only) it is not a valid route via Wolverhampton.

Sorry, I missed that.

So one can use the ticket on WSMR between Marylebone and Tame Bridge Parkway and there is then a permitted route from Tame Bridge Parkway to Liverpool via Crewe, but not much of a service over that route. In reality one would probably buy a local ticket, such as a £4 single to Wolverhampton which is valid on the half-hourly through service via Birmingham, and resume the Liverpool ticket at Wolverhampton.

Alternatively, one can travel from Euston to Tame Bridge Parkway then use the ticket on WSMR between Tame Bridge Parkway and Wrexham.

But the rules don't allow both parts on WSMR.

 

[bengolding]

On a slightly similar theme (WSMR and routes), are walk-on single tickets from stations such as Wrexham and Telford to Birmingham Stations valid on WSMR changing at Tame Bridge Parkway? The online journey planners seem to suggest this is a valid route (e.g. Telford-Birmingham via Tame Bridge), but I thoguht that any tickets to 'Birmingham Stns' were not valid at all on WSMR to Tame Bridge?

 

[Railjet]

On a slightly similar theme (WSMR and routes), are walk-on single tickets from stations such as Wrexham and Telford to Birmingham Stations valid on WSMR changing at Tame Bridge Parkway? The online journey planners seem to suggest this is a valid route (e.g. Telford-Birmingham via Tame Bridge), but I thoguht that any tickets to 'Birmingham Stns' were not valid at all on WSMR to Tame Bridge?

With a CDR from BHM to Wrexham, I went via Tame Bridge and WSMR without any problem.

 

[OwlMan]

Is Banbury not pick up only going northbound, so you couldn't get off there.

So one can use the ticket on WSMR between Marylebone and Tame Bridge Parkway and there is then a permitted route from Tame Bridge Parkway to Liverpool via Crewe, but not much of a service over that route. In reality one would probably buy a local ticket, such as a £4 single to Wolverhampton which is valid on the half-hourly through service via Birmingham, and resume the Liverpool ticket at Wolverhampton.

Alternatively, one can travel from Euston to Tame Bridge Parkway then use the ticket on WSMR between Tame Bridge Parkway and Wrexham.

But the rules don't allow both parts on WSMR.

1) Banbury is only pick up so you should not get off there (sorry I forgot that)

2) Can you break a journey at one station and resume at another? I am not sure whether it is allowed by the routeing guide

3) Would the gripper on the WSMR know which way you travelled to Tame Bridge if you got off at Tame Bridge and then got on the next WSMR train?

4) Would a WSMR gripper know the ticket was not valid for the whole journey anyway?

Peter

 

[John @ home]

2) Can you break a journey at one station and resume at another? I am not sure whether it is allowed by the routeing guide

It's allowed by the National Conditions of Carriage:
C. USE OF TICKETS
16. Starting, breaking or ending a journey at intermediate stations
You may start, or break and resume, a journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) at any intermediate station, as long as the ticket you hold is valid for the trains you want to use. You may also end your journey (in either direction in the case of a return ticket) before the destination shown on the ticket. However, these rights may not apply to some types of tickets for which a break of journey is prohibited, in which case the relevant Train Companies will make this clear in their notices and other publications.

In the absence of any rule to the contrary, the passenger is free to interpret this condition to permit breaking their journey at one station and resuming at another (being careful to avoid doubling back except between Group stations).

3) Would the gripper on the WSMR know which way you travelled to Tame Bridge if you got off at Tame Bridge and then got on the next WSMR train?

... or even the same WSMR train!

Possibly not with WSMR, but there are some train companies, eg. TPE and NXEC, where the ticket may be stamped with the 4-digit train code.

4) Would a WSMR gripper know the ticket was not valid for the whole journey anyway?

In my opinion, not unless they read this forum.