London - Manchester : Alternative Routes ?

[garnon]

I regularly travel between Manchester Piccadilly and London. Often i purchase an off peak single/return (rather than an AP - Virgin only).

Can i use this ticket on routes other than via Stoke or Crewe ? In particular, what would i have to do to travel via Sheffield and the MML ?

Thanks

 

[yorkie]

Before "simplification", it was simple: a cheaper Route Chesterfield ticket existed, at just a few pence less, the ticket type was called a "Saver".

Now, the "Any Permitted" Saver priced by Virgin, has become the Off Peak fare, priced at £66.10. The "Chesterfield" Saver priced by EMT has become Super Off Peak, due to draconinan restrictions recently introduced to that route. The Off Peak route Chesterfield ticket is a whopping £85 but has less restrictions out of St Pancras.

In theory, the excess to the cheaper Super Off Peak Route Chesterfield is Zero, but I am not sure if this means that you have to obtain a zero excess, or if your ticket is automatically valid, or if no excess is possible to the "Super" version.

A similar conundrum exists on the East Coast route, where "simplification" has made the issue a lot more complex when the Saver also became Super Off Peak if the journey was to/via Stevenage or London.

 

[charley_17/7]

AFAIK, the VT priced 'Any Permitted' ticket allows travel via either WCML or MML routes, so you wouldn't need to excess for 'Change of Route', as it is already valid.

If you held a 'Route Chesterfield' ticket, then you would have to excess, because it is the cheaper ticket, to allow travel on any other 'Any Permitted' routes.

Routing guide allows:

CM+GC (Manchester - Birmingham/Coventry, then Birmingham/Coventry to Marylebone/Paddington via Banbury

MM+PS (Manchester - Sheffield via Hope Valley, then Sheffield - London St Pancras via Derby/Nottingham)

CS (Manchester - Birmingham/Coventry, then Birmingham/Coventry to Marylebone via Banbury/Reading/Redhill)

CS+GM (as CS, but allows via Warrington/Earlestown too)

CM+GC+GM (as CM+GC, but allows via Warrington/Earlestown too)

MA (WCML via Trent Valley/West Mids)

GM+MA (WCML via Trent Valley/West Mids, also Warrington/Earlestown)

 

[yorkie]

AFAIK, the VT priced 'Any Permitted' ticket allows travel via either WCML or MML routes, so you wouldn't need to excess for 'Change of Route', as it is already valid.

If you held a 'Route Chesterfield' ticket, then you would have to excess, because it is the cheaper ticket, to allow travel on any other 'Any Permitted' routes.

That certainly was the case but I am unsure that it is now. The Off Peak Route Chesterfield ticket costs a lot more than the Off Peak Any Permitted, because it is not really the same product! The ticket that was called the same thing (Saver) is now called Super Off Peak on the Chesterfield route.

I'm not sure if this actually affects routeing or validity, as it possibly depends on interpretation. Someone with top-secret FRPP access may be able to figure it out.

 

[charley_17/7]

VWC-priced 'Any Permitted' SVR (Off Peak Return) is £66.10, restriction code 9I, is a M-F restriction, allows departure from EUS 0905-1514 (incl.), and at or after 1832, arrival at or after 1055. It allows departure from STP 0901-1629 (incl.), and at or after 1859, arrival at or after 1006.

EMT-priced 'Rte Chesterfield' SVR (Off Peak Return) is £85.00, restriction code 9J, which is a M-F restriction, allows departure from STP between 0901 and 1629 (incl.) and at or after 1859, or outward portions from STP are valid anytime on Fridays after 0901. Arrival restriction is at or after 1006.

EMT-priced 'Rte Chesterfield' SSR (Super Off Peak Return) is £64.80, restriction code CJ, which is a northbound M-F restriction, allowing departure from STP between 1026 and 1515 (inclusive) and arrival at or after 1129.

From that information, I think you are correct! How unfair, as well as confusing, for the passenger! Who would pay more to use a slower route?

 

[glynn80]

This issue was brought up previously and is not straight forward.

The routeing guide states the following on said issue:

You may only use all the permitted routes if the fare is unrouted or the route is described as "any permitted". An "any permitted" ticket cannot be used for travel on a route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a higher priced route specific fare exists. It can be used on any route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a lower priced route specific fare exists...

...All fares comparisons must be made using one of the following single ticket types:

• Standard Open Single (SOS)
• Standard Day Single (SDS)
• Saver Single (SVS)
• Cheap Day Single (CDS)

In exceptional circumstances, due to local fares policies, a direct comparison may not be possible. If this is the case and the origin station or destination station has a lower fare of the type selected than all its routeing points, the Standard Single (Day or Open) fares should be used for comparison purposes.

What the above states is that if you hold an "Any Permitted" routed fare, you may take any route listed within the guide unless a higher prices "route specific" fare exists within the same flow.

Due to simplification this comparison is not so simple. To explain, here are the two respective entries for Manchester Stns to London Terminals

rte CHESTERFIELD

FOS 166.00
FOR 292.00
SOS 122.50
SOR 211.50
SVS 84.00
SVR 85.00
SSS 63.80
SSR 64.80

rte Any Permitted
FOS 193.50
FOR 387.00
SOS 123.50
SOR 247.00
SVS 65.10
SVR 66.10

So for the FOS, FOR, SOS and SOR, the "rte Any Permitted" flow is of higher price than the respective "rte CHESTERFIELD" flow. However when comparing the SVS and SVR fares, the opposite is the case.

The routeing guide quote above, states that the SOS, SDS, SVS or CDS fares must be used when comparing, but does not state what the situation is when comparing separate ticket types yields different results.

Also not clarified is if you need to use the "single" ticket type that corresponds with the ticket you hold, for example, if I hold a SVR do I need to use an SVS for fares comparison purposes or can I use any ticket type of my choosing.

 

[nag67]

The routeing guide states the following on said issue:

"You may only use all the permitted routes if the fare is unrouted or the route is described as "any permitted". An "any permitted" ticket cannot be used for travel on a route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a higher priced route specific fare exists. It can be used on any route not listed in the Routeing Guide for which a lower priced route specific fare exists..."

What the above states is that if you hold an "Any Permitted" routed fare, you may take any route listed within the guide unless a higher prices "route specific" fare exists within the same flow.
.

I don't agree with this interpretation of the part of the guide quoted.

What it actually says is that "any permitted" can be used on all permitted routes in the guide.

The judgement as regards an "any permitted" ticket not being permitted on a higher priced route-specific fare only arises when that route is not normally permitted by the guide.

That is to say if there were a Manchester to London "route Doncaster" fare that was more expensive than the "any permitted" fare, the "any permitted" ticket would not be valid as Doncaster is not a permitted route in the guide.

However, because "route Chesterfield" is a permitted route, then the guide states that the "any permitted" ticket is valid by that route. The fact that "route Chesterfield" might be more expensive is not relevant, according to the guide, because Chesterfield is a permitted route.

At least that is how I read it.

 

[glynn80]

I don't agree with this interpretation of the part of the guide quoted.

What it actually says is that "any permitted" can be used on all permitted routes in the guide.

The judgement as regards an "any permitted" ticket not being permitted on a higher priced route-specific fare only arises when that route is not normally permitted by the guide.

Ah yes, you are correct.

I think I actually made that same mistake last time as well.

After your correction, it seems the Any Permitted tickets are valid via Chesterfield regardless.

 

[tony_mac]

While I would definitely agree with that interpretation, it is directly contradicted by one of the examples in the routeing guide.

It doesn't seem to be how the rules are applied (at least in this case, although I may have got it wrong)

Manchester to Reading
route Any Permitted, SVR £61.40
route + London £76.10
(LONDON is a permitted route)

..you can't buy a ticket via London for £61.40

...edit...
although, for some other journeys this doesn't apply.
Huyton to Chester Any Permitted SDS is £4.70
Route Warrington is £7.10

You can buy an Any Permitted ticket for travel via Warrington

 

[garnon]

AFAIK, the VT priced 'Any Permitted' ticket allows travel via either WCML or MML routes, so you wouldn't need to excess for 'Change of Route', as it is already valid.

If you held a 'Route Chesterfield' ticket, then you would have to excess, because it is the cheaper ticket, to allow travel on any other 'Any Permitted' routes.

Routing guide allows:

CM+GC (Manchester - Birmingham/Coventry, then Birmingham/Coventry to Marylebone/Paddington via Banbury

MM+PS (Manchester - Sheffield via Hope Valley, then Sheffield - London St Pancras via Derby/Nottingham)

CS (Manchester - Birmingham/Coventry, then Birmingham/Coventry to Marylebone via Banbury/Reading/Redhill)

CS+GM (as CS, but allows via Warrington/Earlestown too)

CM+GC+GM (as CM+GC, but allows via Warrington/Earlestown too)

MA (WCML via Trent Valley/West Mids)

GM+MA (WCML via Trent Valley/West Mids, also Warrington/Earlestown)

Thanks for the advice chaps.
So would the Any Permitted ticket be valid on WSMR, boarding at Tame Parkway ?

 

[mark_hammond75]

Well, if it's any help the staff at St Pancras have let me excess a SSR to Sheffield to a SVR to Manchester before…

I’d rocked up with a Super Off Peak return to Sheffield on a Friday evening as they’re timetable says that afternoon restrictions for Off Peak tickets are waved on Fridays (or something like that)… Seeing as there’s only three types of tickets now, I debated for a while with them that my ticket was indeed an Off Peak ticket (albeit a ‘super’ one), and therefore valid. Of course they were never going to agree, so I just asked for an excess to Manchester (about 50p more I believe), and they let me on the next train as I now had an real Off Peak ticket

The only difference here is that the ticket was from Gatwick, and there isn’t any ‘Chesterfield’ route from there - I guess the same would be true from Clapham…

 

[yorkie]

Gatwick-Sheffield Route Chesterfield £72.80 SSR / £96.00 SVR
Gatwick-Manchester Route Any Permitted (valid via Chesterfield) £73.40 SVR (no SSR)

So if going from Gatwick to Sheffield (or similar journeys) customers should purchase tickets between Gatwick and Manchester for greater flexbility.

This is because EMT used "simplification" (which was anything but!) as an excuse to add an extra tier of fares to erode the rights of customers and increase fares by massively more than inflation (which is, in theory illegal, but they are able to get round it. Someone should sue them for committing fraud!)