London Midland 110mph

[Geezertronic]

Virgin Trains cannot object to this improvement in service - there are no grounds for it once the Moderation of Competition agreement expires. It'd be futile.

But they wouldn't object if they wern't contractually obliged to at the moment would they?

 

[Eagle]

Misses out Euxton, so that's old and invalid...

It misses out a lot of stations, actually... it's a network map. :roll:

 

[pt_mad]

That sounds fair - for all those getting excited about "more Intercity" they need to consider that the DfT may well think that a 185 interior is perfectly suitable for such journeys (and that an "Intercity" standard of interior isn't going to automatically be what it was under BR twenty years ago)

Why is it that Pendolinos/FGW HSTs/444s and Voyagers have mainly airline style seatig for Intercity, yet semi fasts like the 350s seem to have more tables and more leg room?

Shouldn't it be short distance trains with airline seating? Like in the 1980s when the Sprinters had just blue seats facing inwards and MK3s had the tables and leg room?

 

[Eagle]

Why is it that Pendolinos/FGW HSTs/444s and Voyagers have mainly airline style seatig for Intercity, yet semi fasts like the 350s seem to have more tables and more leg room?

The airline seating on the former is just a pure and simple way to increase capacity (this is especially welcome on the stuffed XC 22x network, as was tearing out the space-consuming shops).

 

[pt_mad]

The airline seating on the former is just a pure and simple way to increase capacity (this is especially welcome on the stuffed XC 22x network, as was tearing out the space-consuming shops).

Too true. So Intercity doesn't seem to mean a lot anymore since some of the Mk3s and Voyagers aren't even as comfortable as commuter trains.

In what way is a Pendolino actually more confortable than a 350 with 2+2?

 

[Eagle]

In what way is a Pendolino actually more confortable than a 350 with 2+2?

It isn't.

But comfort isn't the most important factor in train design any more; speed, acceleration and capacity are the main factors nowadays.

 

[pt_mad]

It isn't.

But comfort isn't the most important factor in train design any more; speed, acceleration and capacity are the main factors nowadays.

It seems to blow people out of the water that say '350s are commuter trains and aren't suitable for travel on long distances'. In that case neither is a pendolino.

 

[Eagle]

It seems to blow people out of the water that say '350s are commuter trains and aren't suitable for travel on long distances'. In that case neither is a pendolino.

To be fair, Pendolinos are faster though, and have more seats, and catering facilities.

 

[tbtc]

It seems to blow people out of the water that say '350s are commuter trains and aren't suitable for travel on long distances'. In that case neither is a pendolino.

For me there's no "black/white" Intercity/non-Intercity, every train has its advantages/disadvantages.

I suppose, to be fair to the 350v390 argument the door position seems to matter a lot to some posters (end doors being more "Intercity"), plus the level of facilities on board (is there a shop etc).

Generally, give me a seat and I'll be happy though

 

[Eagle]

Generally, give me a seat and I'll be happy though

A seat, and the ability to purchase some kind of beverage if I'm on the train for more than 90 minutes.

And of course the faster it gets me there, the better.

 

[Nym]

A seat, and the ability to purchase some kind of beverage if I'm on the train for more than 90 minutes.

And of course the faster it gets me there, the better.

Bring on HS2 then, and franchise branches of Weatherspoons on board, then maybe the only drinkable thing won't be John Smiths...

If I'm on a busy IC journey I tend to prefer the airline seating anyway, also on 185s, you get a shed tonne more legroom.

 

[Anon Mouse]

It isn't.

But comfort isn't the most important factor in train design any more; speed, acceleration and capacity are the main factors nowadays.

pretty comfy in 1st class though!

 

[34D]

London Midland?

What a lovely map. Thanks for posting the link.

 

[transmanche]

Bring on HS2 then, and franchise branches of Weatherspoons on board, then maybe the only drinkable thing won't be John Smiths...

Not a crazy idea. They sell draught beer on the ICE & CityNight Line in Germany...

 

[the sniper]

What a lovely map. Thanks for posting the link.

No problem. It's from this nice little site here. There are a few more maps like that on that page.

 

[HSTEd]

What about having tables on one side of the aisle and airline seats on the other?

 

[cle]

Could any other EMU routes benefit from 110 running with new trains?

Do any other slow lines allow such a speed?

How about the new Thameslink trains? They could use it a lot on the MML and also the GN routes.

 

[asylumxl]

How about the new Thameslink trains? They could use it a lot on the MML and also the GN routes.

I would hope so since Brighton/Bedford trains spend a lot of their time on the fast lines north of St Pancras, with some peak services using them for the whole 50 miles nearly I believe.

 

[cle]

Yep - there are some which are St Albans - Luton - Flitwick - Bedford.

If following a EM train which stopped at Luton Airport Parkway, that could probably be pathed nicely at 110.

It might help on the GN route around Welwyn having the faster trains (Finsbury Park - Stevenage) running at 110 also. And could maybe make Cambridge Cruiser journeys faster if they were to be absorbed (doubtful currently).

 

[34D]

Yep - there are some which are St Albans - Luton - Flitwick - Bedford.

If following a EM train which stopped at Luton Airport Parkway, that could probably be pathed nicely at 110.

It might help on the GN route around Welwyn having the faster trains (Finsbury Park - Stevenage) running at 110 also. And could maybe make Cambridge Cruiser journeys faster if they were to be absorbed (doubtful currently).

Just what I was thinking. IIRC the highest limit south of Welwyn north is 110 - 125 comes in after Woolmer Green I think. It would certainly help things - maybe create an extra peak path?

I know from experience that dusty bins can do 105mph - I'd imagine all would be capable of it. Isn't the bogie derived from the mk 3 coach (which of course is 125mph compatible).

 

[Class377/5]

Yep - there are some which are St Albans - Luton - Flitwick - Bedford.

If following a EM train which stopped at Luton Airport Parkway, that could probably be pathed nicely at 110.

It might help on the GN route around Welwyn having the faster trains (Finsbury Park - Stevenage) running at 110 also. And could maybe make Cambridge Cruiser journeys faster if they were to be absorbed (doubtful currently).

Add in the fact the 377 are that much quicker off he blocks that even at 100mph they can match the EMT services that stop on the patch given a small head start.
The new stock will be even quicker.

Just what I was thinking. IIRC the highest limit south of Welwyn north is 110 - 125 comes in after Woolmer Green I think. It would certainly help things - maybe create an extra peak path?

I know from experience that dusty bins can do 105mph - I'd imagine all would be capable of it. Isn't the bogie derived from the mk 3 coach (which of course is 125mph compatible).

All stock can do easily 10% than maximum without alterations. The question is what's the safety risk.

 

[Chris125]

If Siemens can get 110mph from the existing Desiro's and Thameslink and Crossrail designs then Bombardier really need to get their thinking caps on...

Chris

 

[HSTEd]

If Siemens can get 110mph from the existing Desiro's and Thameslink and Crossrail designs then Bombardier really need to get their thinking caps on...

Chris

All the bombardier 100mph stock would also be 110mph capable.

Assuming a Cl170 has the power.

 

[WatcherZero]

Yes all rolling stock has a 10% overspeed safety margin, the question would be on stock ordered for 100mph whether raising its speed to 110mph it would still have enough slack for a 10% overspeed margin of 121mph, 21% more than its original specified requirement.

 

[HSTEd]

Would Mark 4s have been qualified to 154mph in that case or just to the 125mph overspeed margin? (137.5mph?)

 

[sprinterguy]

Would Mark 4s have been qualified to 154mph in that case or just to the 125mph overspeed margin? (137.5mph?)

They certainly had a shortened 225 set up to 154mph on a press run in 1994/5, and the maximum speed a class 91+mark 4s has got up to is 162mph with 91010 during pre-service trials, so I think that it is quite likely that they probably had a stated overspeed of 140mph + 10%.

 

[MKB]

No, Virgin run the exact timetable that was developed by the DfT for the VHF service, and object to competition proposals because that is what DfT requires them to do in their current franchise specification. The local complaints are quite wrongly being directed at Virgin. If Virgin did not object to any other TOC's plans for the WCML, they would be in breach of their contract. It was the draft VHF timetable that DfT produced for the route that dropped offpeak calls at Nuneaton.

People are very quick to blame Virgin, but they just play the hand they were dealt, always have...

I attend the local Rail User Group meetings, and there was correspondence from the DfT which said that it was VT who said that it would be impossible to stop any additional services at Nuneaton, and that VT was free to propose such additional stops if it wished. The DfT's position was that it's franchise stopping patterns was only a minimum requirement.

If you want to understand VT's motivation, look at its Saturday southbound LIV-EUS service at 0848 which does have time to call at Nuneaton. This same service on weekdays does not have time to call at Nuneaton which VT told us was due to path availability and to improve reliability. However, no evidence of this has ever been forthcoming. And of course, the obvious explanation would be that, were this fast service to stop at Nuneaton on weekdays, it would be off-peak and might cause some passengers to switch from the earlier fast peak services.

This pretty much encapsulates all that is wrong with rail privatisation, where passenger inconvenience is secondary to profit. Make no mistake, VT is as much to blame as the inept DfT.

 

[Eagle]

Could any other EMU routes benefit from 110 running with new trains?

If the SWML was OHLE it could easily be 110-capable... wonder if it's possible to upgrade the 3RE to 110 standard (never before attempted, I don't think) as I'm sure the 444s' speed could be nudged up.

 

[Hydro]

If the SWML was OHLE it could easily be 110-capable... wonder if it's possible to upgrade the 3RE to 110 standard (never before attempted, I don't think) as I'm sure the 444s' speed could be nudged up.

They did manage to get 108 out of a 442, maybe with some CRE fettling and shoegear mods 444's could manage it. Dare to dream!

 

[pt_mad]

I attend the local Rail User Group meetings, and there was correspondence from the DfT which said that it was VT who said that it would be impossible to stop any additional services at Nuneaton, and that VT was free to propose such additional stops if it wished. The DfT's position was that it's franchise stopping patterns was only a minimum requirement.

If you want to understand VT's motivation, look at its Saturday southbound LIV-EUS service at 0848 which does have time to call at Nuneaton. This same service on weekdays does not have time to call at Nuneaton which VT told us was due to path availability and to improve reliability. However, no evidence of this has ever been forthcoming. And of course, the obvious explanation would be that, were this fast service to stop at Nuneaton on weekdays, it would be off-peak and might cause some passengers to switch from the earlier fast peak services.

This pretty much encapsulates all that is wrong with rail privatisation, where passenger inconvenience is secondary to profit. Make no mistake, VT is as much to blame as the inept DfT.

By the sounds of it though, Nuneaton might get back what it had prior to 125mph running. An hourly service throughout the day at 110mph on the fast route. So Euston will only be 1hr 7m away at any time.