London Midland Advance Tickets

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Searle

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I was looking at traveling from Watford Junction to Rugby on London Midland, knowing how cheap their advanced fares are, however when I went to National Rail Enquiries to look at fares, I can find trains London Midland, but all of these are Off Peak tickets at the cheapest, as shown here.

However, when I look at fares from London Euston to Rugby, I am able to buy an advance fare (at a cheaper price than from WFJ) as shown here. The 11:46 from EUS gets into WFJ at 12:01, and costs under a third of the price!

Is there a way to get around this, because it seems completely illogical to me. If not, would I be able to buy a fare from EUS and just get on at WFJ without having to pay a penalty fare?

Thanks for any help!
 
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yorkie

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I was looking at traveling from Watford Junction to Rugby on London Midland, knowing how cheap their advanced fares are, however when I went to National Rail Enquiries to look at fares, I can find trains London Midland, but all of these are Off Peak tickets at the cheapest, as shown here.
OK. You can't actually buy tickets from National Rail Enquiries, but I looked on a WebTIS-powered site (e.g. LM, EC etc) and you're right, there are no Advance fares shown for Watford Jn- Rugby.
However, when I look at fares from London Euston to Rugby, I am able to buy an advance fare (at a cheaper price than from WFJ) as shown here. The 11:46 from EUS gets into WFJ at 12:01, and costs under a third of the price!

Is there a way to get around this, because it seems completely illogical to me.
Train ticket pricing is market-driven and is not always logical.
If not, would I be able to buy a fare from EUS and just get on at WFJ without having to pay a penalty fare?
You could be refused entry at the barrier at [stn]WFJ[/stn] if starting your journey there, as the ticket is only valid starting at Euston.

If you did board the train at Watford Jn and a ticket inspector realised you started short, I don't think a Penalty Fare (of 2 x £28 = £56) would be applicable. I think it would simply be the Anytime fare of £28.
 

Searle

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Well I was going to travel from St Albans Abbey to Watford beforehand, so getting onto the platform should be ok. Don't really want to get a penalty fare, so I'll have to look more into it. Thanks for the help!
 

Pumbaa

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Try instead a Watford - Nuneaton Super Off-Peak return. Break of Journey allowed on return portion of the ticket.

Worth noting Rugby is the mid-point; LM seem to divide their route into north of and south of Rugby. You can buy the Super Off-Peak tickets from say Watford to Nuneaton or Stafford to Northampton, but Stafford to Nuneaton is a no-no, ie not between two points on the same section of route.
 
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SS4

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Break of Journey is only disallowed on the outbound portion of the Super Off-Peak.

LM price the fares from Euston to WCML stations south of, and including, Northampton so they can't sell LM only fares. North of Rugby is largely VT territory so LM can have LM only tickets (which is why it's cheaper to travel from Euston to Birmingham than Euston to Northampton if I can travel super off peak!)

Stafford to Nuneaton is priced by LM (both Any Permitted and not via Birmingham)


For the OP there are Advance fares from St Alban's Abbey to Rugby at about £7.50 in each direction changing at Watford Junction.
 

Searle

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For the OP there are Advance fares from St Alban's Abbey to Rugby at about £7.50 in each direction changing at Watford Junction.
Oh yeah, never thought of doing that! Bit of an idiot moment by me there it seems :D

Also thanks Pumbaa, will keep that in mind for the future!
 

jkdd77

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If you did board the train at Watford Jn and a ticket inspector realised you started short, I don't think a Penalty Fare (of 2 x £28 = £56) would be applicable. I think it would simply be the Anytime fare of £28.
I think it would be an excess fare, as per Conditon 16 of the NRCoC:
http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/nrcc/NRCOC.pdf

NRCoC said:
If you start, break and resume, or end your journey at an intermediate station when you are not entitled to do so, you will be liable to pay an excess fare. This excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have used.
At the times suggested, the excess fare would be to the LM-only Super Off-Peak Single, with a debatable point as to whether an admin fee could be charged on top.

However, the guard would not be obliged to sell this excess fare, and might instead report for prosecution under either bye-law 18 or section 5 of the RRA 1889. That would, however, be unlikely if the excess fare was paid immediately on demand, unless the guard suspected deliberate fare evasion.
 

bb21

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Can the excess be to a ticket of a different origin, in this case, Watford Junction?

My understanding is that it cannot, which means that it would either have to be excessed to London Terminals - Rugby Route Any Permitted Off-Peak Single, plus an admin charge, which would then permit starting short at Watford Junction, or a brand new ticket purchased for the journey, which in this case would be Watford Junction - Rugby Route Ldn Midland Only Anytime Single.
 

jkdd77

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Can the excess be to a ticket of a different origin, in this case, Watford Junction?

My understanding is that it cannot, which means that it would either have to be excessed to London Terminals - Rugby Route Any Permitted Off-Peak Single, plus an admin charge, which would then permit starting short at Watford Junction, or a brand new ticket purchased for the journey, which in this case would be Watford Junction - Rugby Route Ldn Midland Only Anytime Single.
The NRCoC itself expressly states that:
"this excess fare will be the difference between the price paid for the ticket you hold and the price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have used."

I believe that this, as a core contractual condition in the NRCoC itself, ought to take precedence over conflicting 'internal' rules on excess fares and admin fees.

Therefore, my interpretation of the correct excess fare would be:
Price of the lowest priced ticket(s) available at a ticket office for immediate travel that would have entitled you to start, break and resume, or end your journey at that station on the service(s) you have used= LM only single from Watford Junction to Rugby
less
Amount of advance fare already paid

Having said that, Megatrain T&Cs claim to expressly "amend the NRCoC" so as to expressly allow, in such circumstances, for the charging of a full Anytime Single, without any consideration at all of the fare already paid (and also to exclude refunds for delays).

Since Article 8-2 of the Ticketing and Settlement franchise agreements provide that the NRCoC is a intrinsic part of the contractual agreement, it is also debatable whether such "amendments to the NRCoC" to remove passenger rights is lawful.

TOCs may add additional contractual requirements to those contained in the NRCoC, but may not, at least in my view, use such supplementary T & Cs to remove passenger rights contained in the NRCoC except where the NRCoC expressly permit (and they do expressly permit TOCs to restrict BoJ).
 

yorkie

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I will stick by my suggestion of a new £28 Anytime Single ticket as the correct course on board, however if the customer asked at the ticket office before the train departed Euston then, arguably, the passenger is entitled to amend the Advance ticket as per the rules on changing Advance tickets. This could be an excess to the cheapest available ticket, plus the £10 admin fee.

This is because Advance tickets are considered to hold no value once the train has departed the origin station without the passenger on it (unless the passenger is delayed on a previous train service).

However, for the return journey, then if the passenger was on the correct train from the correct origin and merely finished short, then an excess would apply as per the NRCoC, I believe.
 

rail-britain

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To the OP, why not use the London Midland website for their prices

When I am making these journeys, I plan using their website
However I also note that in general the Off Peak fares are cheaper than the Advance fares
Equally, splitting Super Off Peak fares can be considerably cheaper
I pointed this out to London Midland, but they simply responded with marketing blurb about finding the best fares and theirs were cheaper than other train companies; less than helpful
I have always assumed this is to compare their Advance fares to those offered by Virgin Trains, where they can offer these at a premium (even saving £1 over VT may convince passengers to use their service instead)
 
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