London Midland seek talks over new units (rumour)

Discussion in 'Traction & Rolling Stock' started by jcollins, 20 Nov 2011.

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  1. jcollins

    jcollins Veteran Member

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    I've heard a rumour that London Midland is seeking talks with the government on part funding two orders of new carriages for the LM area. They are apparently seeking an add on order of 26 class 172 vehicles and an add-on order of 90 Desiro City vehicles. They would apparently release their 150s, 153s and 323s if the orders happened.
     
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  3. Class172

    Class172 Established Member Quizmaster

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    I do hope they get the add-on order of 172s. It will cover a well needed capacity increase.
     
  4. IanXC

    IanXC Emeritus Moderator

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    As I understood it the option for 26x 172s would be to replace LMs remaining non 172 diesel stock. Given its 150 (3), 153 (10ish) and 170 (17x 2car, 6x 3car) I would suggest 16 3 car and 10 2 car would seem to match the number of units replaced. However is there not a platform length problem with 23m coaches on the Marston Vale line?

    As for Desiro City units, 90 vehicles split into 3 car sets would fit nicely on the Cross City, increase of 4 units and would allow the 323s to move to Lancashire to resolve the platform length issues there.

    Seeing as how LM seem to get lovely shiney stock all the time this would seem to be likely and helpful to other areas with possible cascades.
     
  5. WillPS

    WillPS Established Member

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    I'd love it for the 172 follow-on order to happen (and it'd certainly be politically favourable given the Thameslink PR disaster).


    I thought the option for more 350s was spent now though?
     
  6. ainsworth74

    ainsworth74 Moderator Staff Member Moderator

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    LM are talking about Desiro City units (same as Thameslink) not more 350s.

    Well certainly seems a sensible enough idea would release some more sprinters to be deployed elsewhere and the 323s would also be quite handy either for Lancashire or perhaps on an electrified valley lines?
     
  7. Old Hill Bank

    Old Hill Bank Member

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    Was the LM option for 172 add on 26 vehicles not units, that would fit with losing the remaining 150s and the 153s. Marston Vale could operate with SDO.
    As for the 90 Desiros, 90 would be a standsill on capacity if the 323s all go and the Redditch and Bromsgrove extensions happen.
     
  8. anthony263

    anthony263 Established Member

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    Do London Midland have enough 323's to work the valley lines if they are wired?


    I think the other operators would love additional units especially if it meant they could free up a unit for refurbishment to make them DDA compliant.

    I know the WG want more rail services and additional capacity on service in wales so additional units would be welcomed the Cambrian and the marches routes are crying out for additional capacity.

    I must admit I wouldnt mind traveling up the Heart of wales line on a class 170 if ATW get some.
     
  9. Class172

    Class172 Established Member Quizmaster

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    The 170s aren't going to be replaced by the add-on order, just the 150/153s I thought.

    I'm not sure what's happening on the Marston Vale line, following the order how about sending a couple of pacers from FGW to operate the line?
     
  10. IanXC

    IanXC Emeritus Moderator

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    Ah yes so it is. That makes much more sense then. 13 2 car I'd guess then, allowing for the 4 car operation 153s are so useful for. Net increase of 10 vehicles though, LM had better diagram its stock more intensively or be prepared to loose a couple of 170s to CrossCountry.

    Ah yes I had forgotten about the Redditch and Bromsgrove extensions. Hard to see how else 90 vehicles would be used though. How many LM 323 diagrams are currently doubled up?
     
  11. Pumbaa

    Pumbaa Established Member

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    Rumour rumour rumour wibble wibble froth.

    If any proof of these plans come to light, somebody let me know. Until then I'll assume it's unfounded.
     
  12. Class172

    Class172 Established Member Quizmaster

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    The Bromsgrove extension isn't confirmed yet, it may not even happen for another decade.
     
  13. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    (EDIT: Didn't read the last couple of posts above this one before posting) The add-on order would be for twenty six vehicles, not twenty six additional units, so no chance of LMs' 170s being replaced. The order should replace LMs' remaining 150s and 153s though. I think the order being split into 4 x 3-car 172/3 and 7 x 2-car 172/2 would work quite well. Might be enough to allow 170s to be replaced on the Chase line by 172s, but not enough to get rid of all of London Midlands' 170 diagrams. I think the 170s are better suited to the longer distance regional workings, such as Hereford and Shrewsbury, than 172s with the same interiors as the current fleet anyway.

    I'm very, very pleased to hear that LM and DfT are talking about the prospect of the class 172 add-on order. I was worried that it was going to be another of those missed opportunities that we see so often in the rail industry.

    As for the possibility of ninety Desiro City vehicles, it seems unfair that London Midland are getting so much shiny new rolling stock when their existing fleets aren't in general that old or unsuitable for the services they operate. Meanwhile, Northern are operating large numbers of Pacers and many trains that are far too short for the number of people they are carrying and have to face the prospect of this continuing to be the case for a number of years to come as the release of second hand 319s for the electrified North West network will be delayed.
    --- old post above --- --- new post below ---
    LMs' twenty six 323s would be insufficient to operate all the Valley Lines services. The entire fleet of forty three 323s would probably just about be able to cover it.
     
    Last edited: 20 Nov 2011
  14. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    Different people have different definitions of what the "Valley Lines" are, in terms of electrification.

    For me, its the routes that run through Queen Street during the regular daytime service pattern (ignoring Ebbw Vale/ Maesteg etc).

    That would need around thirty DMUs/EMUs, by my calculation, though a 323 would mean no need to double up on normal duties. So you'd be able to replace all ATW Pacers (without needing to wire any further).

    Then again, as I can't see a credible source for the rumours being discussed on here, I don't know how much detail its really worth going in to...
     
  15. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

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    One question I'd like to ask is are they looking for Desiro City in fixed length like Thameslink or small units with walkways like on the 350's?

    (and Why can I see LM introducing Desiro Cities before Thameslink?)
     
  16. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    Good point, I'd failed to consider that there are quite a few doubled up Pacer workings on the Valley Lines, which would be replaced by a single EMU. In that case, and excluding the Ebbw Vale and Maesteg branches, then twenty six 323s probably could cover all services.

    I tend to treat the Ebbw Vale and Maesteg branches as part of Valley Lines electrification proposals, even though they aren't part of the "core" Valley Lines network. Of course, the Valley Lines network is prefectly suited to a phased process of electrification, with Treherbert/Aberdare/Merthyr treated as one phase, Rhymney another and then Ebbw Vale and Maesteg as the final one.

    Though as you say, it's probably not worth thinking about too hard at this stage really.
     
  17. tbtc

    tbtc Veteran Member

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    The Queen Street services are nicely self contained. Whilst some services taper out at the far ends, meaning only an hourly service (e.g. beyond Barry to Bridgend), they are generally frequent enough to justify wiring.

    Ebbw Vale and Maesteg are only hourly, plus there'd be the disruption to GWML passengers if the Cardiff - Bridgend main line was wired (without doing the full thing to Swansea).

    Then again, as this is all based on rumour, I agree that its not worth working out the number of diagrams as things stand (unless the OP can tell us where this rumour came from?)
     
  18. Old Hill Bank

    Old Hill Bank Member

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    How plausible is this guys, consider the political thing which is how rail investment is done.

    Manchester-Liverpool wires are up and no electric trains, red faces all round!!!

    Siemens can deliver trains quickly but just give another order to them in preference to the UK builder, not good for votes!!!

    So some 377s for Southern and some 172's for LM ordered from Derby, Desiro Citys from Germany then they only have to scratch their heads about votes for the Crossrail order.
     
  19. The Planner

    The Planner Established Member

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    It is a lot further forward than that, an awful lot of work has been done for it. The station and infrastructure is 95% designed, the timetable is nearly there, the only big decision for it is for one turnback or two.
     
  20. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Is there really that much of a need for capacity improvements in the Birmingham area? Aside during disruption whenever I see local trains in the morning and evening peak they aren't that crowded. Looking at the ''finding a seat'' page on the LM website, services aren't that busy, and those that are even out after just a few minutes into the journey.

    The Snow Hill lines don't have ''finding a seat'' chart online, but anecdotal evidence would say that crowding here isn't that bad.

    Those services that are busy tend to be the longer distance services IME.
     
  21. Chris125

    Chris125 Established Member

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    It would almost certainly be a 3-car unit, which would probably either look like a 380 (i.e with corridor connection) or the Thameslink stock (without).

    Chris
     
  22. Old Hill Bank

    Old Hill Bank Member

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    Sorry Mojo having commuted out of Snow Hill for many years I can say that full and standing is the norm in the peaks, then if you get a short formed or a cancellation go down the pub and come back in an hour mate.
     
  23. Class377/5

    Class377/5 Established Member

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    That's sort of what I was asking. Are they looking for units that you can walk through when attached or more like the 185 and Thameslink stock rather than length.
     
  24. IanXC

    IanXC Emeritus Moderator

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    Given the timescales involved the 10 153s released could be the first units to be put through reforming to 155s and DDA refurbishment. They could then provide the backfill capacity for other DDA works.
     
  25. anthony263

    anthony263 Established Member

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    I did think of that myself.
     
  26. sprinterguy

    sprinterguy Established Member

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    Some of the Cross City and Snow Hill lines services can get very cosy at peak times with full and standing being the norm, though not normally to the extent of crush loaded conditions.

    For instance, at 2009 passenger levels, 377 passengers alighted at New Street from the 08:03 Lichfield City to Longbridge, which at the time was a 3-car 323 intended to seat 289. In the evening peak, there were 405 passengers boarding the 16:17 Lichfield Trent Valley to Redditch, again a single 3-car 323, and 388 and 396 on the 16:47 Lichfield Trent Valley to Redditch and 16:54 Four Oaks to Longbridge respectively, both 6-car services. And these figures fail to take into account those passengers travelling through New Street on these trains from Cross City north to Cross City south.

    On the Snow Hill lines, once again using 2009 figures, 283 passengers were counted alighting at Snow Hill from the 07:33 Worcester Foregate Street to Dorridge and 229 from the 07:47 Leamington Spa to Worcester Foregate Street (Following on from 117 passengers alighting at Moor Street). Both these services were 5-carriage 150 formations. 205 alighted at Snow Hill from the 08:10 Kidderminster to Marylebone service, and 213 from the 08:14 Stourbridge Junction to Shirley, the former a four car Chiltern 168, the latter a 4-car 150.

    In the evening peak, 242 passengers boarded the 16:55 Stourbridge Junction to Stratford upon Avon at Snow Hill, a 3-car 150, and a further 65 at Moor Street.

    For reference, a 3-car hybrid 150 seats 212 passengers, and a 2-car 150 unit 141.
     
  27. 387star

    387star Established Member

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    Explains why the 321s haven't been touched internally.

    A very good idea. EMT could benefit from those 170s?


    What are LMs plans for the remaining 150s- will they be repainted?
     
  28. Mojo

    Mojo Administrator Staff Member Administrator

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    Standing on commuter railways is commonplace the world over.
     
  29. Class172

    Class172 Established Member Quizmaster

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    Well the local news certainly doesn't indicate that!

    Thing is, I don't really see how Bromsgrove justifies 4tph to Birmingham (3 stoppers, 1 fast). Would it not be cheaper and more beneficial to make the service from BHM to Worcester 2tph, with it potentially linking to the new Tamworth/Nuneaton cross-city service?

    Snow Hill line services can get really crowded, not just in the central section: at peak times the Droitwich-Worcester section can get really packed, I know, I have to use the luggage racks sometimes. ;)
     
  30. swt_passenger

    swt_passenger Veteran Member

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    I think the proposal is for a 3 tph service, alternating with a 3 tph to Redditch?

    But whatever the stage of the actual planning, the Oct update to the CP4 delivery plan reported that the third party funding (from the local authority?) was yet again 'in doubt'...
     
  31. 150001

    150001 Member

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    Why replace the 323s! Perfectly fine and the desiro cities could go to Northern instead, so they can have some new stock for a change. The 323s are fine here and still relatively young by todays standards! however I do agree with the 172 add on order.
     
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