London Overground Class 172

[YorkshireBear]

Has there been any news on where the 172s will end up after GOBLIN electrification?

Not seen any mention at all, simply that the new Class 710 will be replacing them.

 

[Harbornite]

I seem to remember hearing that they could end up at Chiltern.

 

[D365]

Similarly, I'd like to know what work they're doing during the electrification blockades.

 

[Domh245]

Similarly, I'd like to know what work they're doing during the electrification blockades.

Sunbathing at Willesden? The weather has been pretty good for that of late!

 

[swt_passenger]

I seem to remember hearing that they could end up at Chiltern.

Well, people have been proposing that ever since they were first delivered, presumably because they are such similar units, and also because the parent companies are related. (The latter as far as I can work out is no real justification at all.)

But has it ever been formally confirmed? In principle they could go anywhere at the Roscos discretion.

 

[Clansman]

Wales? They'll need something to replace the Pacers by 2020, although the numbers wouldn't cancel out without needing new build stock (8:30).

 

[swt_passenger]

Wales? They'll need something to replace the Pacers, although aren't there no plans of yet?

This is a very small fleet we're taking about, 8 x 2 car, they wouldn't replace much of anyone's existing fleet. I reckon if not with Chiltern or LM they'll end up merged with someone else's existing Turbostars.

Who knows, perhaps they are convertible for Southern's purposes vice ex-SR 170s...

 

[43074]

Anglia could do with a few more DMUs as well, maybe to replace the short set and some of the 15x units. I wouldn't have thought it was too difficult to install a disabled toilet if necessary as presumably the vehicles are a modular design with the structural integrity to support such facilities being installed at a later date?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

This is a very small fleet we're taking about, 8 x 2 car, they wouldn't replace much of anyone's existing fleet. I reckon if not with Chiltern or LM they'll end up merged with someone else's existing Turbostars.

Who knows, perhaps they are convertible for Southern's purposes vice ex-SR 170s...

I'd say London Midland - they're quite different to the Class 170s, so I'd guess they'll go to London Midland and will displace a similar number of Class 170s to move elsewhere.

 

[Clansman]

Not to turn this into an auction or anything, but Northern? The 8 units could certainly help ease capacity on a lot of route corridors such as Manchester/Leeds/York and Manchester/Sheffield/Doncaster etc, although they are routes (especially the latter) commonly served by the pacers and will probably get the new CAF trains, unless they are displacing other units (150/153s) from longer distance duties?

 

[D365]

Northern's 153s are being replaced along with their Pacers.

 

[Clansman]

Northern's 153s are being replaced along with their Pacers.

Edited my post just before you posted. What about the 150s, are they going too?

 

[43074]

What about the 150s, are they going too?

No, they're actually receiving more 150s - the 3 LM units are moving up North first, followed by the GWR 150/1 sets in December 2017 and the GWR 150/0 sets in April 2019, at the end of the current GWR franchise.

 

[Clansman]

No, they're actually receiving more 150s - the 3 LM units are moving up North first, followed by the GWR 150/1 sets in December 2017 and the GWR 150/0 sets in April 2019, at the end of the current GWR franchise.

So that's Northern probably out of the equation then (not that it was ever in)

172 Auction
Northern - Already receiving new units from CAF and cascaded units from GWR, LM and Scotrail
Arriva Trains Wales - Unlikely
Chiltern -Most likely
Great Western Railway - Need to replace 8 Pacers by 2020, same number of 172s going off-lease
Greater Anglia - Could replace some 156s from Ipswich or Norwich for use on Northern
London Midland - Possible
GTR Southern - Could fit in with 171s on Uckfield Line

 

[XDM]

I imagine RMT will be watching eagle eyed to see where they go. They are go anywhere DOO with southern/scotrail type carriage cams & monitors in the cabs.

 

[D365]

Why would GWR (and to a lesser extent, LM/ATW) be interested in a microfleet when they are planning to give up some of their DMUs in the near future?

 

[Clansman]

Why would GWR (and to a lesser extent, LM/ATW) be interested in a microfleet when they are planning to give up some of their DMUs in the near future?

Didn't say they were. Just taking into account the fact they were looking for some a few years ago to displace 158s around Bristol and Cardiff. More or less the list is a template to try and prevent repetitive suggestions. Also, GWR need rid of the Pacers by 2020, and they have 8 class 143s - so maybe the 172s wouldn't be a bad idea for a temporary solution until new stock is acquired.

 

[Harbornite]

There's no chance of the Wales franchise getting them.

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Didn't say they were. Just taking into account the fact they were looking for some a few years ago to displace 158s around Bristol and Cardiff. More or less the list is a template to try and prevent repetitive suggestions. I'll happily score from the list

They'll got to London Midland or Chiltern - they're really very different underneath compared to the Class 170s, with different engine, gearbox, final drive and bogies.

They in turn may cascade out Class 165, Class 168 or Class 170 units which can go to any Class 170 operator, such as Greater Anglia or CrossCountry etc.

 

[TH172341]

They'll got to London Midland or Chiltern - they're really very different underneath compared to the Class 170s, with different engine, gearbox, final drive and bogies.

They in turn may cascade out Class 165, Class 168 or Class 170 units which can go to any Class 170 operator, such as Greater Anglia or CrossCountry etc.

Yep exactly - either Chiltern or London Midland would be suitable homes for them. Can't really see them going anywhere else but them.

 

[northwichcat]

So that's Northern probably out of the equation then (not that it was ever in)

172 Auction
Northern - Already receiving new units from CAF and cascaded units from GWR and LM
Arriva Trains Wales - Unlikely
Chiltern - Most likely
Great Western Railway -
Greater Anglia -
London Midland -

Note Northern will also be getting 170s from Scotrail in 2018 and the franchise spec says they will get 16 x 2 car by 2022 which must be equivalent in quality and performance to 170s. Maybe the LO 172s to LM to release some 170s for Northern?

 

[Clansman]

Note Northern will also be getting 170s from Scotrail in 2018 and the franchise spec says they will get 16 x 2 car by 2022 which must be equivalent in quality and performance to 170s. Maybe the LO 172s to LM to release some 170s for Northern?

The 172s have less capacity so there wouldn't be a real benefit in swapping 172s for 170s other than on the maintenance front. It would however, be beneficial as a complement to the London Midland City fleet and would seem logical to do so.

 

[eastmidschris]

To me the most logical place would be London Midland to enable the final diagrams booked for 170s to be removed from the Snow Hill route.

 

[fgwrich]

No, they're actually receiving more 150s - the 3 LM units are moving up North first, followed by the GWR 150/1 sets in December 2017 and the GWR 150/0 sets in April 2019, at the end of the current GWR franchise.

When was it announced that GWs /0s were leaving? I thought they were due to stay longer term, hence why they are being modified to be closer to the standard /1s, DDA'd and repainted into GWR livery.

 

[Harbornite]

To me the most logical place would be London Midland to enable the final diagrams booked for 170s to be removed from the Snow Hill route.

I'm not sure about that. Aren't the 170s also used to retain route knowledge for diversions?

 

[43074]

When was it announced that GWs /0s were leaving? I thought they were due to stay longer term, hence why they are being modified to be closer to the standard /1s, DDA'd and repainted into GWR livery.

It's in the Northern franchise agreement, on the incoming fleet section it shows 2x3 car 150 units arriving in April 2019, along with 150202, 216 and vehicles 57209 & 57212. It hasn't been announced but there's been a fair bit of discussion in the Northern franchise threads on this. Worth pointing out the GWR Direct Award ends in April 2019 as well, presumably its just a case of the /0s not being available to the next franchisee whoever they will be.

EDIT - it's in Table 2 of this document, p152: https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa.../file/537465/northern-franchise-agreement.pdf

 

[northwichcat]

The 172s have less capacity so there wouldn't be a real benefit in swapping 172s for 170s other than on the maintenance front. It would however, be beneficial as a complement to the London Midland City fleet and would seem logical to do so.

A 2 car 172 with a commuter interior has less capacity than a 2 car 170 with a regional interior? Are you sure about that?

 

[jopsuk]

on a source, the LM layout has 67 seats in the A coach and 54 in the C coach for a total of 121

LO's 172s have 120 seats, but they have extensive standing areas near the doors.

 

[ert47]

Aren't the LO 172 fitted with Tripcocks like the Chiltern units?

 

[Philip Phlopp]

Aren't the LO 172 fitted with Tripcocks like the Chiltern units?

The Chiltern and London Overground Class 172 units aren't fitted with tripcocks - they've no mounting bracket available on the B5005 bogies. They can only be used on LUL track when sandwiched by a pair of units fitted with tripcocks.