London - Return Tickets - Child £6.60

[sb123]

Hello!

I bought a ticket which is valid from:
Ilford to Chessington South

It cost me £6.60, and on the ticket it says:
'Any Route Permitted'

What does this mean? As I went from:
Ilford - Waterloo - Surbiton - Chessington South

Instead of going from:
Ilford - Waterloo - Chessington South

At Surbiton, 4 Fare-Evasion Officers 'ganged up' on me, and I feel I was treated extremely unfairly. I asked for his name which he refused but wanted me to fill out some book for fare evasion.

How can it be classed as 'Fare Evasion' when it would cost no more that what I paid going the route I did, and on the ticket it does say 'Any Route Permitted'

Can anyone help me out here please? Should I have to pay £20-00

Thanks
Stephen

 

[yorkie]

An RPI (Tom C on here) told me you cannot be penalty fared for being off-route.

I think you were off-route, as although it is reasonable to want to go via Surbiton to get to Chessington South for the bus (I know - I've done it myself via the bus and the direct train having stayed there a few days!), it is not a valid route to get to Chessington South.

The fare is the same.

I think the correct action is to give you an excess, which in this case is £0.00.

You should move "oop north", here you'd just say to the friendly guard "I missed the train to ABC, I know the fare to XYZ is the same price, can you give me a zero excess?" to which the guard would say "Don't worry about it mate" and wave you on and everyone would be happy.

The really odd thing is that the fares in the travelcard area are PRICED zonally but are issued to a specific station rather than a specific zone. If they were priced zonally like on LU you'd have had no problems.

 

[sb123]

Thanks Yorkie!

I really really appreicte your help with this.

I wish they were like that down here... I didn't even realise I had done something wrong until my ticket wouldn't work!

Showed it to the guard who then ripped it up and saying just two words. 'Not Valid, Not Valid.' I asked for the ticket back or for him to let me through the gate, but he wouldn't.

Then he called over another guy, who said it wasn't valid, but I told him how the Waterloo staff said it was alright.

But he pointed at the map, at the 'massive' distance between Surbiton and Chessington South. It's only a 13 min Bus Journey so I told him he was having a laugh.

Then I realised I have 4 of them around me.

I asked for their names to make a complaint, which they covered up, and he now insisted I filled out some book. He said if I made a complaint it would end up with me having to pay more as they would use their CCTV systems to show how I was wasting their time. It did not need 4 of them though.

I said I needed to use the toilets, so he walked me downstairs and I had to find another way out.

Was really upset, about this as I'm only 16, and didn't really need this sort of abusive behavoir towards me before work.

Thanks very much for your support though.

 

[will1337]

£6.60 is a lot for that journey, a Z1-6 child travelcard is cheaper and Chessington South is in Zone 6.
Edit: Oops, 30p more.

 

[sb123]

Yeah, it's very similar.

But I believe a Return Ticket to Surbiton is also £6.60 the same price as a Return Ticket to Chessington South.

 

[will1337]

You'd obviously have the flexibility of extra journeys and no problems with RPIs I guess though. Oddly enough, buying a child zone 1-6 off peak for my brother recently an SWT machine charged £3.50 for the ticket instead of £2.

 

[yorkie]

Thanks Yorkie!

I really really appreicte your help with this.

You're welcome!

I wish they were like that down here... I didn't even realise I had done something wrong until my ticket wouldn't work!

Showed it to the guard who then ripped it up and saying just two words. 'Not Valid, Not Valid.' I asked for the ticket back or for him to let me through the gate, but he wouldn't.

Remember this: they can take your ticket off you BUT THEY MUST GIVE YOU A RECEIPT.

Then he called over another guy, who said it wasn't valid, but I told him how the Waterloo staff said it was alright.

Interesting. I am not sure what the official rule is, but I would have thought the Waterloo staff should have advised you an excess would be required (which is £0.00) and issued that.

But he pointed at the map, at the 'massive' distance between Surbiton and Chessington South. It's only a 13 min Bus Journey so I told him he was having a laugh.

Then I realised I have 4 of them around me.

I think what he is saying is that it is not a permitted route - although he should be using the Routeing Guide maps to 'prove' that, and not any old map.

I asked for their names to make a complaint, which they covered up, and he now insisted I filled out some book. He said if I made a complaint it would end up with me having to pay more as they would use their CCTV systems to show how I was wasting their time. It did not need 4 of them though.

Pretty sure they are not allowed to hide their names but I'm sure someone else can confirm...

I said I needed to use the toilets, so he walked me downstairs and I had to find another way out.

Was really upset, about this as I'm only 16, and didn't really need this sort of abusive behavoir towards me before work.

Thanks very much for your support though.

Glad you got away from them! :grin: Sadly though they won't change their attitude - they need challenging and told that their behaviour is not acceptable, but I realise that would be very daunting when there is only one of you and you are unsure of the rules.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

You'd obviously have the flexibility of extra journeys and no problems with RPIs I guess though. Oddly enough, buying a child zone 1-6 off peak for my brother recently an SWT machine charged £3.50 for the ticket instead of £2.

Then don't put any cash in the machine and find another machine! If there is no alternative then just say you only had £2 and pay on the train.

I'd also write and complain. Not that £1.50 is a lot, but out of principle they should not be overcharging. It's a shame we can't 'penalty fare' them when they overcharge us

 

[sb123]

Yeah!

I always get the travelcards, especially at the weekend as they are £2.00

The machines were showing half price of an Adult ticket for children which is the wrong fare. Apparantly they flashed all the machines incorrectly, so I got my tickets from the desk.

But yeah they gave me a return ticket that day and said it wasn't a problem as it covered all the zones, so I won't be fined whatever route I go.

But I see that isn't the case.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
That £3.50 was the off-peak child fare, which was charging people incorrectly for weeks.

Look how much money they would have made from that.

An extra £1.50 per child.

They gave me no receipt for my ticket, and he did just use a standard rail and underground map.

Are they receiving commission for the amount of fines they process?

I believe they don't work direct for the train companies either... are they a separate company?

I would make a complaint but I am too scared because of the things he said to me that day... and that I got away without paying, they might find something to get even more money off me because of this.

 

[yorkie]

Check your PMs.

 

[sb123]

Thanks =)

Replied to it.

Are child tickets on the Underground upto 16 years old? I have an Oyster card which expires in Sept 08, but they always issue me with Child Tickets without me having to ask

 

[Daniel]

If your 16 you can't get child fares on National Rail. My Child Oyster expires 30th Sept 08, and I am 16 - it should be valid until you leave full time education, (so 30th Sept is the next educational year, which for me would be Year 12 - non-mandatory).

On Transport for London services, (Tube, DLR etc), you can get a child rate ticket with your oyster card.

However, on National Rail, if your 16 or over, a child ticket isn't valid for you =]

 

[yorkie]

If your 16 you can't get child fares on National Rail. My Child Oyster expires 30th Sept 08, and I am 16 - it should be valid until you leave full time education, (so 30th Sept is the next educational year, which for me would be Year 12 - non-mandatory).

On Transport for London services, (Tube, DLR etc), you can get a child rate ticket with your oyster card.

However, on National Rail, if your 16 or over, a child ticket isn't valid for you =]

I thought the rule was that you can if it is wholly within the london zonal area?

I know for a fact members of this forum have had travelcards when aged 16/17 in conjunction with Child rate Oysters! Was that wrong?

 

[djw1981]

They have to legally give you the name on their name badge which is the name by which they want to be known at work. They do not have to give you their real name.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

As far as I am aware, the ticket is not valid via Surbiton and therefore you were travelling without a valid ticket in a penalty fare zone. This is grounds for a penalty fare to be issued.

The RPIs MUST give you their name as it appears on their name badge when they issue a penalty fare.

You have 21 days to appeal against it and if you state they did not give you a name, on top of the other details, they should accept your appeal. SWT do not run the appeals process.

 

[Mojo]

Others above are correct with regards to identification. From the Penalty Fares Rules: -
"Each authorised collector must carry, and produce if asked, identification which proves that he or she is authorised to collect penalty fares on behalf of a specific operator or operators...Authorised collectors must allow passengers to make a note of the relevant details of their identification and authority." [5.4]

I have to disagree with the above poster, however. From the Policy document, it is made clear that instructions to authorised collectors must make clear that a Penalty Fare can not be charged to "a passenger who has a ticket for the journey they are making, but who is using a route on which their ticket is not valid." [4.29] Instead an excess may be paid in line with the National Conditions of Carriage.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/

 

[metrocammel]

I have to disagree with the above poster, however. From the Policy document, it is made clear that instructions to authorised collectors must make clear that a Penalty Fare can not be charged to "a passenger who has a ticket for the journey they are making, but who is using a route on which their ticket is not valid." [4.29] Instead an excess may be paid in line with the National Conditions of Carriage.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/rail/legislation/pf/

That is very well, but using that logic I could have a ticket between Orpington and Ilford, and use it at Surbiton- and argue that 'you can't issue a penalty fare, because I'm off route!' Surely there is a limit to how 'off route' you can be!? Also, I don't believe you can 'officially' issue change of route XS fares if there is not alternative route (which there wouldn't be for an Ilford to Chessington S ticket- as the only ticket is 'Any Permitted'- and Surbiton is most definately not a permitted route). So, I'm not sure what type of XS would be issued in this scenario. (Possibly an Over Distance, but again, that *should* be to/from a station on the same route as the original ticket.

I would make a complaint but I am too scared because of the things he said to me that day... and that I got away without paying, they might find something to get even more money off me because of this.

Did you actually 'escape' then? As, if so, do not complain - or else you may have legal action taken against you- Im pretty sure if you've been stopped by an RPI, you are liable to be taken to court if you refuse to pay a PF / run away, but don't quote me. Also, did you say they didn't work for SWT, and were gateline staff? If that is similar to Great Eastern, then there gateline staff are employed by a 3rd party, in GEs case, that is 'Meteor Security', and Im pretty certain they do not have the 'power' to issue PFs- I don't know the gateline situation on SWT though.

 

[Chris B]

I have to disagree with the above poster, however. From the Policy document, it is made clear that instructions to authorised collectors must make clear that a Penalty Fare can not be charged to "a passenger who has a ticket for the journey they are making, but who is using a route on which their ticket is not valid." [4.29] Instead an excess may be paid in line with the National Conditions of Carriage.

THat works if you travel beyond the station your ticket was valid for, or alight short where a higher fare might be valid.

The journey made was Waterloo - Surbiton, and the poster did not have a ticket for the journey made.
The Penalty fare would be correct unfortunately. If a passenger wants to stray off route, they are responsible for checking validities, and getting an excess / change of ticket where necessary.
However, the fact that the RPIs failed to allow you access to gather their names will render any penalty unfair, so appeal immediately.

If there were a member of SWTs Customer Panel on here, they ought to take this case forward & complain to management about the treatment metered out in this case.

 

[yorkie]

I still can't believe it can possibly be right to issue a PF to someone who has paid a zonal fare to a Z6 station and then travelled to a nearby Z6 station, having paid the correct fare.

If it is 'right' then the rules need to be changed immediately.

This isn't about revenue "protection" whatsoever. This is about unfairly raising revenue by bullying customers who have paid the correct fare.

 

[Chris B]

So...by your argument any trip worth £6.60 could be undertaken using a ticket to Chesington South?

Because that is effectively what you've just said. Just because they're not many miles apart shouldn't matter. You can't legislate for simply distance.

But zonal tickets ought to follow, I agree.

 

[thefab444]

Is it possible to excess tickets for £0.00, I remember when I asked for a Bristol Parkway ticket and ended up with Bristol Temple Meads (from Salisbury), the FGW guard tried to excess it to Bristol Parkway but couldn't. I believe this was because there is no price difference on SAL - BRI/SAL - BPW.

 

[Tom C]

I am not so sure that this is "off route" and more about travelling beyond validity to be honest. Not working for SWT I could not be 100% sure but if you were going to Chessington South then the last station that it would be valid for on the Surbiton line would be Raynes Park and thus going beyond there would be travelling beyond validity.

Regardless of the fare charged, the ticket is only valid between the two points stated on the ticket and even with the routing taken into concideration it would be more to do with travelling beyond validity.

This isn't about revenue "protection" whatsoever. This is about unfairly raising revenue by bullying customers who have paid the correct fare.

I don't see what you mean.

Does that mean that someone who buys a ticket from London Terminals to Streatham should be able to use their ticket between St Pancras and Cricklewood just because the single fare is £2.90?

It doesn't matter what the fare says on the ticket, it is about what is printed on the ticket. Although the fares are based on what zones you pass through the ticket does not print zones on it, simply Ilford to Chessington South.

However, the fact that the RPIs failed to allow you access to gather their names will render any penalty unfair, so appeal immediately.

The Penalty Fare has an "Authorised Collector Number" at the bottom which is used by IPFAS to identify the issuer of the Penalty Fare. They should give you their first names and their badge number which is enough to identify the issuer.

If that is similar to Great Eastern, then there gateline staff are employed by a 3rd party, in GEs case, that is 'Meteor Security', and Im pretty certain they do not have the 'power' to issue PFs- I don't know the gateline situation on SWT though.

Not correct I'm afraid

When Thameslink were still around I trained several Meteor guards who were working on behalf of Southern. They went through the normal ticket training, Penalty Fare course and I believe they were also trained to issue MG11's. Wouldn't be to confident that all agency staff are complete novices!

Is it possible to excess tickets for £0.00, I remember when I asked for a Bristol Parkway ticket and ended up with Bristol Temple Meads (from Salisbury), the FGW guard tried to excess it to Bristol Parkway but couldn't. I believe this was because there is no price difference on SAL - BRI/SAL - BPW.

Advantix can issue zero fare excess tickets as can any booking office machine. I have issued hundreds of them for people going to Kings Cross Thameslink with a London Terminals ticket as it is technically travelling beyond validity and is much easier to address by issuing a zero fare excess.

 

[yorkie]

So...by your argument any trip worth £6.60 could be undertaken using a ticket to Chesington South?

The fare is the same and it is a reasonable journey to want to make so yes it should be valid. A ticket to Fishguard is valid to Pembroke for example!

But zonal tickets ought to follow, I agree.

Absolutely. And the fact that the TOCs are charging zonally but not giving people that flexibility and then having the cheek to try to PF them, means we should, IMO, demand zonal ticketing to be introduced immediately.

 

[Tom C]

The fare is the same and it is a reasonable journey to want to make so yes it should be valid. A ticket to Fishguard is valid to Pembroke for example!

A ticket from Fishguard is valid to Pembroke but a ticket to Chessington South is not valid to Surbiton.

Absolutely. And the fact that the TOCs are charging zonally but not giving people that flexibility and then having the cheek to try to PF them, means we should, IMO, demand zonal ticketing to be introduced immediately.

It was a TFL request to TOC's to start issuing tickets by zones but the actual tickets are exactly the same as they were and are valid from point to. Tickets do not carry any zonal information on them it is just they are priced based on zones.

I think it would be much easier to adapt fares to be like the Underground where tickets simply show the zones for the amount purchased. However until such time as that is introduced the rights and wrongs are quite simply that a ticket is issued from a to b and until that changes people need to realise that going beyond b regardless of the fare may be treated as travelling beyond validity.

 

[Chris B]

I am not so sure that this is "off route" and more about travelling beyond validity to be honest. Not working for SWT I could not be 100% sure but if you were going to Chessington South then the last station that it would be valid for on the Surbiton line would be Raynes Park and thus going beyond there would be travelling beyond validity.

Regardless of the fare charged, the ticket is only valid between the two points stated on the ticket and even with the routing taken into concideration it would be more to do with travelling beyond validity.

the ticket is only valid between the two points stated on the ticket which makes the ticket invalid to Surbiton. Just because the Chessington route leaves the main line at Raynes Park doesn't mean the rest of the main line is beyond validity. So, by your argument, you couldn't be penalty fared using that ticket to Woking, Winchester or Southampton? Rubbish!

I think the grippers have a good reason (unfortunately) to see the ticket as invalid & to issue a penalty fare in this case.

The official Routing Guide is available on the internet & can be checked.

BUT, as they were wrong in two cases - not issuing a receipt for the ripped up ticket, and refusing to provide ID when asked, the penalty fare in this case alone would likely be annulled on appeal.

 

[yorkie]

...So, by your argument, you couldn't be penalty fared using that ticket to Woking, Winchester or Southampton? Rubbish!....

I would argue that the ticket is effectively to Zone 6 and going beyond Zone 6 to e.g. Woking should be treated as over-distance.

The TOCs have made such a huge deal about introducing zonal fares, yet they want to have their cake and eat it by making them point to point. The sooner they are forced to issue them to/from a zone, to reflect the actual fare paid and to be in line with their own fare policy and existing LUL practices, the better.

It's bonkers to have so-called zonal ticketing that is not really zonal ticketing, and criminalising a customer for not understanding their complex rules about how they are zonally priced but not really zonal is insane.

 

[Tom C]

the ticket is only valid between the two points stated on the ticket which makes the ticket invalid to Surbiton. Just because the Chessington route leaves the main line at Raynes Park doesn't mean the rest of the main line is beyond validity. So, by your argument, you couldn't be penalty fared using that ticket to Woking, Winchester or Southampton? Rubbish!

What in Gods name are you talking about!

Firstly, I AM an authorised collector and I actually do know what I am talking about when it comes to the issuing of a penalty fare.

If you actually issue penalty fares you will know that on the slip there are a number of reasons of which one must be ticked in order for the penalty fare to be issued correctly........

1) No ticket - Person had a ticket so can't use this
2) Adult on child - Doesn't appear to be the case so cannot use that either
3) Std to 1st - Obviously useless
4) TRAVELLING BEYOND VALIDITY - Means the person has gone beyond the validity of his/her ticket
5) Off route - CANNOT be used
6) Restricted ticket - CANNOT be used
7) Other

So to be issued it would have to be no 4 wouldn't it?

If you read what I said, I said that the reason this penalty fare would have been issued was not for routing (which you cannot issue) its travelling beyond validity as the ticket would stop being valid at Raynes Park.

READ what is being said before you start your guff

 

[yorkie]

5) Off route - CANNOT be used
6) Restricted ticket - CANNOT be used

are these former valid reasons which can no longer be used due to a change of rules? if so, that's a very good change and more changes like that would be welcome.

are the boxes still on the old pads but not on new ones or something?

 

[devon_metro]

Why should you have to pay a penalty fare when they refuse to allow you to make a valid complaint. Totally unjust! The Penalty fare system is quite frankly flawed and RPIs often seem to target the most vulnerable. How many 16 yr olds know in the ins and out of the routing guide? Personally I think the routing guide should be scrapped and a new one, based on common sense should be produced. At least make it understandable to the public. My view is that if the routing guide is as complicated as it is, it is unfair to PF against somebody on an invalid route, unless it is clearly and quite obviously invalid. The ticketing system is far too complicated and it is about time it was standardised and made easy for EVERYBODY to understand and not just the odd few who know what they are talking about. I know a few shortcuts to save me some money but quite frankly I am baffled by the ATOC routing guide!

 

[yorkie]

Liam - I agree to a point, that the RG should be easier to understand. ATOC simply said RJIS is the answer to everything but then they don't let us customers access it.

For the London area, all this could be avoided if they used zonal fares. Oh wait, they just did.... shame they bodged it in a way that normal pax can easily get chinged

 

[Tom C]

are these former valid reasons which can no longer be used due to a change of rules? if so, that's a very good change and more changes like that would be welcome.

You will no longer be charged a penalty fare if your ticket is not valid due to being off route or holding a ticket which is not valid simply because of the ticket type.

I also forgot two others which are No Supporting Document which refers to railcards and Out of date which speaks for its self.

Why should you have to pay a penalty fare when they refuse to allow you to make a valid complaint.

Of course you can make a complaint. When you are issued with a Penalty Fare you are given a a slip. This includes the authorised collectors number on the bottom and also includes the address for IPFAS and also the date in which you have to submit your appeal. In no way can anyone stop you making an appeal or indeed a complaint against the person issuing the penalty fare.

The Penalty fare system is quite frankly flawed and RPIs often seem to target the most vulnerable.

In what way is the system flawed?

Penalty Fares have actually been changed to protect the very people you are going on about in regards to the routing guide and routes and also the baffling numbers of ticket types available to a person. You should no longer be issued with a penalty fare if your are off route and nor will you be issued a penalty fare if your ticket is restricted. For example the evening peak restrictions on TL north of Radlett would be an ideal opportunity to Penalty Fare hundreds of people every day who buy Cheap Day Returns or Off Peak travelcards yet you will only ever be charged an excess fare as the rules were changed to protect people for exactly the reasons you mention!

The only reasons that you may be issued with a penalty fare is if you don't hold a ticket at all, your ticket is out of date, you are travelling with a discount and cannot substantiate that discount, you travel you are an adult who buys a child ticket or you travel in 1st class whilst paying for a standard class ticket or you go beyond the point where your ticket is valid.

I personally resent the fact that you tarnish all RPI's with the same brush, saying we only target vulnerable people. I certainly target no one and neither do any of my colleagues. My job is to ensure people are travelling with a correct ticket, you may not like that but thats the way it is.