London Terminal Transfer Min Connection

[Felix A]

Hiya all,

Next Tuesday I will be travelling from Harringay to London Liverpool Street in order to connect to the 0600 to Norwich, for which I have bought an advance single for.

I intend on leaving my house around 0430, in order to arrive in good time for the 0501 out of Harringay for London Kings Cross, arriving at 0513. NRE then suggests I take a H&C labelled the 0523 (which I found confusing due to the 15 minute connction time). It then says this will take me into Liverpool Street for 0544 which I find hard to believe as I know it does not take 21 mins to make the short hop.

I have also noticed on BR Times that the KGX - LST connection befor 0529 is 20 mins labells 'transfer' as oppose to 'tube'.

Would I be respecting the minimum connection times and therefor be liable to delay repay on the split if either the tube is down or if GN cancel / delay my train?

Sorry if I sound a bit clueless this is my first time doing travel as early as this so I am trying to be cautious in my journey.

Many thanks,
Felix A

 

[tiptoptaff]

TRUST returns it as a valid connection

 

[Jona26]

I have also noticed on BR Times that the KGX - LST connection befor 0529 is 20 mins labells 'transfer' as oppose to 'tube'.

I think this means that there is no tube connection at this time and that you would have to take a bus/cab/walk/etc between stations.

 

[Hadders]

There used to be a table in the Great Britain Passenger Timetable which gave the minimum connection time between Kings Cross and Liverpool Street as 41 minutes, although it did caution that additional time should be allowed during early mornings/late evenings and at weekends without actually specifying what this should be.

Nowadays electronic journey planners calculate the time required. For your journey this will be the minimum interchange time at Kings Cross (15 minutes) + the interchange time between Kings Cross and Liverpool Street (21 minutes between 00:01 and 05:20) + the minimum interchange time at Liverpool Street (15 minutes). This gives a total interchange time of 51 minutes.

Between 07:00 and 17:59 the interchange time between Kings Cross and Liverpool Street is 11 minutes so the overall interchange time at that time of the day is therefore 41 minutes, which is identical to the time quoted in the table of the old GB Passenger Time Table

You can find the interchange times at brtimes.com

Unfortunately you only have 47 minutes between arrival at Kings Cross and departure from Liverpool Street so this isn't an official connection and journey planners will not offer it. How 'enforceable' this is is debatable because as far as I know interchange times are no longer documented anywhere, you have to use journey planners which are programmed as described above.

 

[Haywain]

Between 07:00 and 17:59 the interchange time between Kings Cross and Liverpool Street is 11 minutes so the overall interchange time at that time of the day is therefore 31 minutes.

41 minutes, not 31.

 

[Hadders]

41 minutes, not 31.

Oops post corrected.

 

[Felix A]

Hi all,
Thanks for the responses. I have also noticed that it notes the interchange time past 0529 as 15 mins, adding a 15 min connection at Liverpool Street, would that make my connection valid if I did the interchange by tube past 0529?

 

[Hadders]

Hi all,
Thanks for the responses. I have also noticed that it notes the interchange time past 0529 as 15 mins, adding a 15 min connection at Liverpool Street, would that make my connection valid if I did the interchange by tube past 0529?

In a word, no.

The interchange times between Kings Cross and Liverpool Street are as follows:

http://www.brtimes.com/#!board?stn=KGX&show=info&date=20190420

LONDON LIVERPOOL STREET
TRANSFER From 0001 until 0629 21 minutes
TUBE From 0630 until 0659 16 minutes
TUBE From 0700 until 1859 11 minutes
TUBE From 1901 until 2359 16 minutes

But you have to add the minimum interchange time at both Kings Cross (15 minutes) and Liverpool Street (15 minutes) to the above figures.

 

[SickyNicky]

This is actually a rather interesting case, and will require some thought. I think that Felix A is suggesting that although they arrive at Kings Cross at 0513, they should delay taking their tube connection until 0530, at which point the data allows for a 15 minute connection. Therefore, 15 mins on the tube and the 15 minute connection time at Liverpool Street = 6.00am. And therefore the connection is valid.

Very interesting indeed.

Edit: Actually it would have been interesting, but Hadders has just posted the actual data, which shows the connection doesn't change until later on in the day, So in this case it's not valid. But it's still worth thinking about for other cases.

 

[yorkie]

Yes there is no change in the data at 0529.

The official connection into the 0600 from Liverpool Street is the 0434 from Harringay: http://www.fastjp.com/#journeys?orig=HGY&dest=NRW&odate=20190423&otime=0400&maxres=22&maxch=4

In practice, the 0501 is almost certain make the connection, but this isn't official, so if delays occurred you are not covered.

The fastest route may be to take a bus, depending on where you are actually starting from in Haringey, which I note is not near the station.

 

[alistairlees]

Yes there’s a dead time zone effect here. If you depart Liverpool Street at 0716 then the interchange times of 15 minutes at each station eat into that so that you start with 0646. If you arrive at kings cross between 0626 and 0629 then you should have 21 minutes transfer time applied which means you can’t make it. If you arrive at 0630 then you have 16 minutes tube time applied, so you can!

 

[transmanche]

It's odd that the system considers it a non-tube transfer before 05:30 when the first tube from King's Cross St Pancas towards Liverpool St is at 05:01.

The official connection into the 0600 from Liverpool Street is the 0434 from Harringay: http://www.fastjp.com/#journeys?orig=HGY&dest=NRW&odate=20190423&otime=0400&maxres=22&maxch=4

In practice, the 0501 is almost certain make the connection, but this isn't official, so if delays occurred you are not covered.

The TfL Journey Planner (which tends to be less pessimistic about such things) suggests that you'd arrive at Liverpool St tube station at 05:32.

The fastest route may be to take a bus, depending on where you are actually starting from in Haringey, which I note is not near the station.

The 141 bus runs along Green Lanes in Harringay and will take you to Moorgate, which is just a short walk from Liverpool Street. It takes about 35 minutes and the runs every 12 minutes at that time of the morning.

 

[Felix A]

I've considered taking the 141, however I live 10 mins on the other side of Harringay rather than the Green Lanes Side (and I don't particularly fancy being on Green Lanes at that time in the morning).

I think I will risk the 0501 just for the sake of saving myself 30 mins in bed (and if anyone questions it I will point to the journey planners). In reality I think the main conclusion we ca gather from this is how sometimes the min connections can be truly annoying in denying perfectly sensible times. The only reason why I queried this was due to GTR's no exactly stellar service and I just didn't want to risk it with them (and yet here I am)

Oh and sorry for the misread of the data that was very silly of me .

Thanks all for the contributions and I wish you all a fabulous Bank holiday Monday!

 

[rishtonlad]

Connection times can by generous as I once got in to Waterloo well after 19:00 one Saturday and still got the 19:30 off Euston.

 

[alistairlees]

Connection times can by generous as I once got in to Waterloo well after 19:00 one Saturday and still got the 19:30 off Euston.

Yes, they are deliberately generous to ensure that people have a good chance of making their connection.

 

[Hadders]

There’s a big difference between a regular traveller, who positions themselves at the front of the train upon arrival at, say, Kings Cross, knows where to go, avoiding the ‘tourist routes’ etc and an occasional traveller, alighting from the rearmost carriage who’s never made a cross London journey before.