London Terminals confusion

[Philo]

Hello all, I wonder if you can help me. The wife needs to travel from Harold Wood (zone 6) to Kings Cross every day. The train from harold Wood goes to Liverpool Street.

Today she bought a daily return to 'London Terminals' to try out the journey. She got through all barriers ok apart from trying to exit at Kings Cross underground. The ticket barrier man let her out.

Is it strange that she was allowed in but not out of the barriers?
Is this the correct ticket to buy?

I am aware you can buy a zone 1-6 travelcard but it's much more expensive.

Many thanks for any advice.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Hello all, I wonder if you can help me. The wife needs to travel from Harold Wood (zone 6) to Kings Cross every day. The train from harold Wood goes to Liverpool Street.

Today she bought a daily return to 'London Terminals' to try out the journey. She got through all barriers ok apart from trying to exit at Kings Cross underground. The ticket barrier man let her out.

Is it strange that she was allowed in but not out of the barriers?
Is this the correct ticket to buy?

I am aware you can buy a zone 1-6 travelcard but it's much more expensive.

Many thanks for any advice.

London Terminals mean an station where you service terimates as far as I understand it. It DOESN'T include an Underground jounery. She needs a ticket that either includes an Underground jounery or a travelcard as you suggested. Did she use the ticket barriers on the Underground to join to get to Kings Cross or was let through by a member of staff?

 

[Philo]

Thanks for your reply. She used the ticket at a barrier to get onto the underground at Liverpool Street. That's what I find confusing.

 

[EM2]

A 7-day or monthly Zone 1-6 season ticket would surely be the best bet?
I travel Forest Gate to Kings Cross/St Pancras (although I have a 6-month season) and a colleague does the same from Romford

 

[Sir_Clagalot]

London Terminals does just mean the one your train arrives at, and does not include a single journey, as said.

 

[Philo]

Yes the travelcard zones 1-6 is certainly an option that works, but it is quite a bit more expensive.

7 day = £47.60
Month = £182.80


Whereas the national rail ticket to London terminals is:

7 Days = £36.20
1 Month = £139.10

 

[gordonthemoron]

Yes the travelcard zones 1-6 is certainly an option that works, but it is quite a bit more expensive.

7 day = £47.60
Month = £182.80


Whereas the national rail ticket to London terminals is:

7 Days = £36.20
1 Month = £139.10

It's not more expensive than buying a ticket to London Terminals and then using an oystercard for the tube (£4 per day I think)

 

[Daniel]

It's not more expensive than buying a ticket to London Terminals and then using an oystercard for the tube (£4 per day I think)

£3.20 per day, £1.60 each way in zone 1 on an oyster card.

I've always got the impression that the ticket is for the first Terminal you arrive at?

For the through journey you'd need the destination as: U1 which is, to London, plus a single journey within zone 1 only.

 

[Philo]

Sir Clagalot, you may be right, but I found this on the National Rail site:

"Travelling 'via' London

Rail tickets for journeys via London can be used on London Underground
or First Capital Connect's Thameslink route between London terminals
at no additional cost. "


Also, when I use the National Rail Season Ticket Calculator, for a journey between Harold Wood and Kings Cross I get this result:

Duration Available Standard Class Adult Season Tickets
Between: Harold Wood (HRO)
And: London Terminals
Route Code: Travel is allowed by any route option shown by the Journey Planner


So, going by what it says above, I used their journey planner to look at the route, and it shows that you can travel to Liverpool Street by train, and then to Kings Cross by underground.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

Sir Clagalot, you may be right, but I found this on the National Rail site:

"Travelling 'via' London

Rail tickets for journeys via London can be used on London Underground
or First Capital Connect's Thameslink route between London terminals
at no additional cost. "


Also, when I use the National Rail Season Ticket Calculator, for a journey between Harold Wood and Kings Cross I get this result:

Duration Available Standard Class Adult Season Tickets
Between: Harold Wood (HRO)
And: London Terminals
Route Code: Travel is allowed by any route option shown by the Journey Planner


So, going by what it says above, I used their journey planner to look at the route, and it shows that you can travel to Liverpool Street by train, and then to Kings Cross by underground.

Can I point out a 'via London' means you get a train somewhere else to outside London not TO London as this thread is asking. To go VIA London they would have to depart Kings Cross on a train.

 

[hairyhandedfool]

London Terminals tickets are not valid on LUL services once you arrive in London, it usually refers to the terminus station you arrive at, in this case London Liverpool Street.

When Travelling on Thameslink/FCC services from the north, a 'London Terminals' ticket will only allow you to travel to St Pancras International, no further. With a 'London Thameslink' ticket you could travel through to Elephant & Castle or London Bridge.

Travelling from the south, a 'London Terminals' ticket will take you through to City Thameslink. To go to St Pancras you would need a ticket with St Pancras displayed as the destination or a ticket destined for Zone U1.

Farringdon is never a valid destination on a 'London Terminals' ticket.

 

[mackenzie_blu]

London Terminals tickets are not valid on LUL services once you arrive in London, it usually refers to the terminus station you arrive at, in this case London Liverpool Street.

When Travelling on Thameslink/FCC services from the north, a 'London Terminals' ticket will only allow you to travel to St Pancras International, no further. With a 'London Thameslink' ticket you could travel through to Elephant & Castle or London Bridge.

Travelling from the south, a 'London Terminals' ticket will take you through to City Thameslink. To go to St Pancras you would need a ticket with St Pancras displayed as the destination or a ticket destined for Zone U1.

Farringdon is never a valid destination on a 'London Terminals' ticket.

Are you sure on that? I know one of the tickets is valid TO Farringdon from the north but no futher where as the southern half is valid to City and this is from FCC RPI's (not 100% reliableinformation I know).

To be honest it confuses people and why ticket offices are needed as ticket machine fail to tell you the difference.

 

[John @ home]

... wife needs to travel from Harold Wood (zone 6) to Kings Cross every day. The train from harold Wood goes to Liverpool Street.

Today she bought a daily return to 'London Terminals' to try out the journey. ...

Is this the correct ticket to buy?

No. It's not the correct ticket.

London Terminals mean an station where you service terimates as far as I understand it. It DOESN'T include an Underground jounery. She needs a ticket that either includes an Underground jounery or a travelcard as you suggested. Did she use the ticket barriers on the Underground to join to get to Kings Cross or was let through by a member of staff?

It's not quite as simple as that. A ticket to London Terminals can sometimes allow an Underground journey. For example, either rail or underground can be used between Finsbury Park and Kings Cross and the tickets are interchangeable.

But for this particular journey from Harold Wood to London Terminals the National Routeing Guide (http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide.asp) shows that the only permitted route, using map EA, is Harold Wood to Romford to Ilford to Stratford to Liverpool Street.

Between Stratford and Liverpool Street either rail or Underground can be used. Again, tickets are interchangeable. But on arrival at Liverpool Street the journey has been completed and the ticket can't be used further.

John

 

[hairyhandedfool]

Are you sure on that? I know one of the tickets is valid TO Farringdon from the north but no futher where as the southern half is valid to City and this is from FCC RPI's (not 100% reliableinformation I know).

To be honest it confuses people and why ticket offices are needed as ticket machine fail to tell you the difference.

From the Fares and Retail Publication Portal (FRPP):

Some special rules also apply to First Capital Connect (FCC) fares where a journey begins or ends at any central London station served by FCC Thameslink.

· Tickets issued to ‘LONDON TERMINALS’ from the North are only valid to St. Pancras International. From the South tickets are valid for travel to Elephant & Castle, London Bridge, London Blackfriars and City Thameslink.

· From the North, tickets issued to ‘LONDON THAMESLNK’ (NLC 4452) are valid to London St. Pancras International, Farringdon, City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge, Elephant & Castle.

· From the South, tickets need to be issued to the specific station to travel to London St. Pancras International or Farringdon. For City Thameslink, London Blackfriars, London Bridge, and Elephant & Castle, tickets to ‘LONDON TERMINALS’ or to the specific named station are valid.

 

[metrocammel]

Sir Clagalot, you may be right

It's more a case of he is right, rather than maybe right!

 

[gordonthemoron]

But for this particular journey from Harold Wood to London Terminals the National Routeing Guide (http://www.atoc.org/rsp/Routeing_Guide.asp) shows that the only permitted route, using map EA, is Harold Wood to Romford to Ilford to Stratford to Liverpool Street.

What happens when the Javelins start running, will it be possible to change at Stratford and take the Javelin to St Pancras at no extra cost (as opposed to terminating at Liverpool Street)?

 

[John @ home]

What happens when the Javelins start running, will it be possible to change at Stratford and take the Javelin to St Pancras at no extra cost (as opposed to terminating at Liverpool Street)?

Not yet known. I would be pleasantly surprised if journeys between Stratford and St Pancras by Javelin were at no extra cost.

John

 

[dan_atki]

I've always got the impression that the ticket is for the first Terminal you arrive at?

In essence yes, but special circumstances apply at Waterloo. Although not mentioned anywhere a ticket from any SWT station to London Terminals cannot be retained by the barriers there in case people wish to travel onto London Bridge or Charing Cross (via Waterloo East) which is valid as it is the shortest route and does not involve a cross London journey. SWT confirmed this on their website when discussing the barriers being installed at Waterloo:

Can I still use a ticket valid to “London terminals” to travel on to other stations such as Charing Cross or London Bridge?
Yes. The gates have been programmed to return the ticket to you to enable onward travel within the validity of that ticket.

Either that or a change at Clapham, and Battersea to get to London Bridge would be used (I doubt the validity though) to get up there.

What happens when the Javelins start running, will it be possible to change at Stratford and take the Javelin to St Pancras at no extra cost (as opposed to terminating at Liverpool Street)?

I suspect these will be timetabled as pick up only at Stratford coming from London and set down only towards London. The argument would be that Stratford already receives a high number of services towards Liverpool Street.

 

[jopsuk]

What happens when the Javelins start running, will it be possible to change at Stratford and take the Javelin to St Pancras at no extra cost (as opposed to terminating at Liverpool Street)?

I'd doubt it- for a start, the International station is quite seperate, and transfers will be by the new DLR line.

 

[yorkie]

It's more a case of he is right, rather than maybe right!

Hmm... not if you take it literally in any case, although it is correct in this case (Harold Wood to London).

 

[paul1609]

London Terminals tickets are not valid on LUL services once you arrive in London, it usually refers to the terminus station you arrive at, in this case London Liverpool Street.

When Travelling on Thameslink/FCC services from the north, a 'London Terminals' ticket will only allow you to travel to St Pancras International, no further. With a 'London Thameslink' ticket you could travel through to Elephant & Castle or London Bridge.

Travelling from the south, a 'London Terminals' ticket will take you through to City Thameslink. To go to St Pancras you would need a ticket with St Pancras displayed as the destination or a ticket destined for Zone U1.

Farringdon is never a valid destination on a 'London Terminals' ticket.

Whilst you are right (and I've discussed this before) the fares to London St Pancras from Sussex Stations are the same as to London Terminals.
The Southern Quickfare machines also issue a ticket to London Terminals when you specifically put it London St Pancras and the tickets work the barriers at St Pancras.
I have a email from Southern customer services somewhere saying that this is an issue known to both Southern and FCC and the tickets should be accepted without question by both companies staff.

Tickets to Farringdon are more expensive and are issued to Farringdon Und. One day i must get a ticket from the booking office to ST Pancras and break my journey at Farringdon!

 

[dan_atki]

One day i must get a ticket from the booking office to ST Pancras and break my journey at Farringdon!

Good luck to you explaining to the LU employees there about break of journey .

 

[Max]

So, surely a 7 day season to City Thameslink at £36.20 would be the best option here?

 

[John @ home]

So, surely a 7 day season to City Thameslink at £36.20 would be the best option here?

Entering Harold Wood and City Thameslink into NFM 02 does indeed produce a 7-day season at £36.20, but it also shows that this ticket would be issued to "1072 London Terminals".

I think we have established above that this ticket would not be valid at Kings Cross. It is also not valid at City Thameslink.

John

 

[Max]

Entering Harold Wood and City Thameslink into NFM 02 does indeed produce a 7-day season at £36.20, but it also shows that this ticket would be issued to "1072 London Terminals".

I think we have established above that this ticket would not be valid at Kings Cross. It is also not valid at City Thameslink.

John

Sorry John, never noticed this! I'm surprised too that Old Street is classed as a London Terminal!

 

[John @ home]

I'm surprised too that Old Street is classed as a London Terminal!

It was a genuine terminal station briefly a few years ago while Moorgate was closed.

John

 

[jon0844]

London Terminals does just mean the one your train arrives at, and does not include a single journey, as said.

I can get a London Terminals ticket from Hatfield to Old Street, but travel in to King's Cross, get off the rail platform, into the station for the Northern Line and out at Old Street. The barriers won't stop me at King's Cross as it's the first (terminal) station in London that I got to.

 

[glynn80]

Sorry John, never noticed this! I'm surprised too that Old Street is classed as a London Terminal!

The following is the FRPP list of London Terminals

City Thameslink
London Liverpool Street
London Blackfriars
London Paddington
London Bridge
London St Pancras International
London Cannon Street
London Victoria
London Charing Cross
London Waterloo
London Euston
Moorgate Underground
London Fenchurch Street
Old Street Underground
London Kings Cross
Vauxhall
London Marylebone

 

[Matt Taylor]

From the south tickets are valid (from SWT land) to Waterloo, Victoria, London Bridge, Charing Cross and also cannon Street, Blackfriars and City Thameslink (but not Farringdon).

 

[Bill Badger]

From the south tickets are valid (from SWT land) to Waterloo, Victoria, London Bridge, Charing Cross and also cannon Street, Blackfriars and City Thameslink (but not Farringdon).

Apologies to resurrect an old thread but I can't find the answer elsewhere on the forum.

Can anyone tell be where the above information is publicly available?

Cheers