London Terminals - has something changed?

[sefton]

By the company which sold you the ticket I meant if, for example, your train into Kings Cross was Great Northern then claim from Great Northern.

They sold you a ticket to Moorgate but failed to ensure the ticket would be accepted at the TFL barriers and you would not be delayed on your journey.

Seems to tick all the boxes for GTR to be liable to pay Delay Repay.

 

[Mojo]

In their zeal to reject London Terminal tickets Tfl have overlooked tickets with a London Thameslink destination. I tried one in the underground barriers at Kings Cross / St Pancras today and it still works. Perhaps they'll be on to those next.

There is no "oversight." The barrier programming was changed deliberately due to the ambiguous meaning of "London Terminals" in some customers' eyes and the wish to avoid conflict at stations where that ticket is not valid. As "London Thameslink" is less ambiguous and also less likely to be held by people who don't know what they are doing there was no reason to change how it works.

 

[sefton]

The "oversight" was overestimating the capability of the barrier staff to understand and apply simple instructions.

 

[ssamara]

My London Terminals season ticket has been working at the barriers at Kings X (both entry and exit) for the past week or so. Presumably someone has seen sense and rolled back the changes?

 

[OwenB]

My London Terminals season ticket has been working at the barriers at Kings X (both entry and exit) for the past week or so. Presumably someone has seen sense and rolled back the changes?

Interesting. Great if true. Anyone else able to confirm their ticket is now working again?

 

[sefton]

Mine is working 'inbound' at Old St 'and outbound' at KGX, not tried the other direction.

 

[OwenB]

Has this all been sorted now, people? Slightly self-interestedly our company is moving to near Moorgate next week and hope I can get the Northern line from King's Cross (faster, cleaner trains, etc.) without having to argue the toss at the barriers every time! Any confirmations either way would be much appreciated. Cheers.

 

[maniacmartin]

Most people would want to avoid the Northern line Bank branch as it is rather busy at peak times. I'd take the Circle/H&C instead any day.

 

[Hadders]

Most people would want to avoid the Northern line Bank branch as it is rather busy at peak times. I'd take the Circle/H&C instead any day.

I agree. Get the Circle/Met/H&C. Much better than the Northern Line.

 

[OwenB]

Yep. I probably will do. I used to work near Old Street a few years ago, so got used to the hellish Northern line. I'm just not looking forward to having to argue the toss with the guy on the barrier, with my London Terminals ticket, twice a day if it's still an issue.

 

[Hadders]

There were reports on here that the barriers at Kings Cross St Pancras were accepting London Terminals tickets again but I haven't had the chance to test it for myself. When they were being rejected I never had an issue with being let through manually.

 

[greyman42]

Yep. I probably will do. I used to work near Old Street a few years ago, so got used to the hellish Northern line. I'm just not looking forward to having to argue the toss with the guy on the barrier, with my London Terminals ticket, twice a day if it's still an issue.

I travel from York to London and onto Moorgate a couple of times a month so hope this has been sorted out. After you have argued the toss with the barrier staff on numerous occasions it becomes tiresome, especially if you are in a hurry. The fact that you are in the right bears no relevance with some of the staff.

 

[OwenB]

There were reports on here that the barriers at Kings Cross St Pancras were accepting London Terminals tickets again but I haven't had the chance to test it for myself. When they were being rejected I never had an issue with being let through manually.

Hopefully pal. I've not seen anyone complain about it on Twitter recently, so hopefully they've reversed their decision to not automatically let you through the barriers. I know they'll let you through if you ask, just gets a bit of hassle twice per day. Feel like one of those poor sods who use carnet tickets and have to queue up every morning at King's Cross, when they get off the train.

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

I’ve got a super off-peak return “London Terminals” ticket (via Nottingham) which I’m using tomorrow, and I need to get to Old Street. Can I do this on my ticket?

 

[A Challenge]

Where is it from?

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

Alfreton (ALF).

 

[A Challenge]

Basically, you can go to Nottingham and then direct to London St Pancras International (and I think then you would have to make your own way to Old Street as interavailability only applies if you come into KGX even if your ticket is valid to both) or via Grantham or (Leicester and) Melton Mowbray to Peterborough and down the ECML to London Kings Cross and use the interavailability to Old Street or to Finsbury Park and down the Northern City line from there, which will have a significant time penalty.

Spoiler: Routing Guide version

The valid routes from Nottingham Group (the appropriate routing point [along with Long Eaton and Loughborough, but you have to pass through Nottingham to get there, so they are discarded]) to London Group (of which Old Street is a member) are on maps KS, NM and PN+KP, so here are the permitted routes, including the maps used:

• [KS] Nottingham Group - Grantham - Peterborough - Hitchin - Stevenage (via Hertford North) - Finsbury Park (via Highbury and Islington - Essex Road) - London Group
• [KS] Nottingham Group - Grantham - Peterborough - Cambridge - Hitchin - Stevenage (via Hertford North) - Finsbury Park (via Highbury and Islington - Essex Road) - London Group
• [NM] Nottingham Group (via Derby) - Loughborough - Leicester - Kettering - Bedford - Luton - West Hampstead Thameslink - London Group
• [NM] Nottingham Group (via Derby) - Loughborough - Melton Mowbray - Leicester/Oakham - Kettering - Bedford - Luton - West Hampstead Thameslink - London Group
• [PN+KP] Nottingham Group - Loughborough (via Leicester) - Melton Mowbray - Oakham - Peterborough - Hitchin - Stevenage (via Hertford North) - Finsbury Park (via Highbury and Islington - Essex Road) - London Group
• [PN+KP] Nottingham Group - Loughborough (via Leicester) - Melton Mowbray - Oakham - Peterborough - Ely - Cambridge - Hitchin - Stevenage (via Hertford North) - Finsbury Park (via Highbury and Islington - Essex Road) - London Group

This allows you to go to Nottingham and then direct to London St Pancras International (and I think then you would have to make your own way to Old Street as interavailability only applies if you come into KGX even if your ticket is valid to both) or via Grantham or (Leicester and) Melton Mowbray to Peterborough and down the ECML or via Ely or Cambridge (though not into London Liverpool Street) to Stevenage and then via Potters Bar or Hertford North to Finsbury Park, where you can either go to London Kings Cross and use the interavailability on the Northern line to OLD or down the Northern City line from there straight to Old Street. Of course if you do this your train doesn't need to stop at all the Routing Points/Routing Groups, just pass through them, as it is one ticket not split at them.

 

[maniacmartin]

interavailability only applies if you come into KGX even if your ticket is valid to both

Do you have a source for this?

 

[A Challenge]

Do you have a source for this?

No, hence that statement being prefixed by 'I think'. Isn't it the case then - I would be very surprised for Old Street from London St Pancras as I see no reason for that ever having been.

 

[Hadders]

If a National Rail ticket, with a destination/origin of London Terminals is valid into/out of King's Cross, then it is also valid for travel for a direct journey between King's Cross St. Pancras and either Old Street or Moorgate only. Break of journey is not permitted.

So the question that needs to be answered - is an Alfreton - London Terminals ticket valid into Kings Cross. I’m out and about at the moment so can’t check but I suspect it is.

 

[A Challenge]

It is (see the spoiler in my #287), but the question is for when you don't go into KGX, but go into STP instead, is that still valid, as you can't mix permitted routes, and it is for going into KGX that there is interavailability.

 

[Hadders]

The problem is the inter-availability isn’t documented in the public domain as far as I know but the wording is ‘includes validity into Kings Cross’, not you must travel into Kings Cross.

How would it work in the opposite direction? What if your plans suddenly changed upon arrival at Kings Cross St Pancras...

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

If a National Rail ticket, with a destination/origin of London Terminals is valid into/out of King's Cross, then it is also valid for travel for a direct journey between King's Cross St. Pancras and either Old Street or Moorgate only. Break of journey is not permitted.

So the question that needs to be answered - is an Alfreton - London Terminals ticket valid into Kings Cross. I’m out and about at the moment so can’t check but I suspect it is.

Up until the timetable change earlier this year, whenever I bought the same ticket the planner would tell me to change at Grantham outbound, arriving into KGX, and then return from St Pancras (direct). It _was_ valid but I don’t know if that’s changed as I don’t get offered the Grantham route now.

 

[swt_passenger]

The problem is the inter-availability isn’t documented in the public domain as far as I know but the wording is ‘includes validity into Kings Cross’, not you must travel into Kings Cross.

How would it work in the opposite direction? What if your plans suddenly changed upon arrival at Kings Cross St Pancras...

I think the intervailability was described in the old paper fares manuals as “Finsbury Park to Kings Cross/Moorgate”.

That might be intended to mean it isn’t there primarily for Kings Cross to Moorgate.

I’m not that sure about post #287’s suggestion that you could go via Peterborough to Kings Cross then go back to Finsbury Park and thence to Old St. I expect there will be different theories about that though...

 

[BackOnTheTrain]

Basically, you can go to Nottingham and then direct to London St Pancras International (and I think then you would have to make your own way to Old Street as interavailability only applies if you come into KGX even if your ticket is valid to both) or via Grantham or (Leicester and) Melton Mowbray to Peterborough and down the ECML to London Kings Cross and use the interavailability to Old Street or to Finsbury Park and down the Northern City line from there, which will have a significant time penalty.

Thank you for all the details! Time is going to be limited, certainly on the outbound journey, and probably inbound too, so I can’t do anything which adds more time on really.

 

[A Challenge]

When did I say that -it wasn't my intention to mean that?

 

[swt_passenger]

When did I say that -it wasn't my intention to mean that?

Is that regarding what I wrote? I probably chose the wrong interpretation of how you read the ‘and’ and ‘or’ in your possible journeys above. Apologies if I chose the wrong meaning.

 

[A Challenge]

Is that regarding what I wrote? I probably chose the wrong interpretation of how you read the ‘and’ and ‘or’ in your possible journeys above. Apologies if I chose the wrong meaning.

Yes it was that. Could you tell me where in the post, I referred to Finsbury Park quite a lot?

 

[swt_passenger]

Yes it was that. Could you tell me where in the post, I referred to Finsbury Park quite a lot?

Here you go, I now think you meant:

...to Peterborough and down the ECML (to London Kings Cross and use the interavailability to Old Street) OR (to Finsbury Park and down the Northern City line from there), which will have a significant time penalty.

I read it first time round as:

...to Peterborough and down the ECML to London Kings Cross, (and use the interavailability to Old Street or to Finsbury Park and down the Northern City line from there), which will have a significant time penalty.

Does that make sense?

 

[A Challenge]

It is indeed the first, with the last clause in the sentence about time in the brackets with the Northern City Line (Finsbury Park to Moorgate)