London Terminals - has something changed?

[Hadders]

The only GN stations that do not have the "choice" of boarding a direct train that stops at Finsbury Park are Waterbeach to King's Lynn inclusive.

As much as it gives passenger freedom now, it does seem like an odd anomaly now Moorgate has a proper 7 day train service. It'd be like tickets into Victoria being valid for a tube journey to Waterloo. Why should GN passengers continue to enjoy such a privelidge when no other routes into London have an equivalent?

Not really. What about someone from Cuffley needing to get to Kings Cross on a Sunday?

Also bear in mind that between Finsbury Park and Highbury & Islington/Old Street/Moorgate there's effectively common gate lines so it makes sense to retain it.

 

[bb21]

But they’re not doing that. They’re denying entry to people. They should allow entry and sort it out at the destination.

Similarly the gates, for example, at Stevenage do not reject valid tickets just in case someone decides to travel further than their ticket allows.

I carried out some mystery shopping of my own, the outcome of which was reported upthread. I will report back if I experience any further issues.

In reality, trying to tell people who have been incorrectly allowed into the system to pay more is much harder than trying to prevent this happening at the point of entry. We have even seen accusations of entrapment on the forum before for such occurrences. I can fully understand why TfL took that stance from a pragmatic point of view.

But that is no excuse for not allowing people who have paid the correct fare access of course. They should be allowed through manually.

 

[Ianno87]

Not really. What about someone from Cuffley needing to get to Kings Cross on a Sunday?

Change at Finsbury Park and get the first availae train to King's Cross or St Pancras?

 

[Hadders]

Change at Finsbury Park and get the first availae train to King's Cross or St Pancras?

Which is fine when the service level hasn't been decimated.

Alternatively why not just continue to allow the flexibility offered by the inter-available section that's operated successfully for the best part of 50 years?

 

[OwenB]

This sign is still up at the Northern line gateline at King's Cross (as at around 6.30 this morning).

 

[westv]

At what point does incorrect information become a lie?

 

[OwenB]

At what point does incorrect information become a lie?

I would say it's more the difference between a misunderstanding/mistake and intentionally misleading. I don't know which one this is at this stage.

 

[paddyk]

I go HIT to FPK>>MOG in the morning, then MOG >> KGX on the Northern line in the evening and pick up my train there. Is there an official line on this? I used my key last week with no problems. I find rail staff can be hard work at times......

 

[Bletchleyite]

This sign is still up at the Northern line gateline at King's Cross (as at around 6.30 this morning).

That's the standard poster which has also appeared at Euston for at least the last 6 months.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Change at Finsbury Park and get the first availae train to King's Cross or St Pancras?

Well, exactly. I was in the position a couple of months ago of wanting to do exactly that (well, the station in the middle of nowhere one stop north of it, I forget what it's called), and that's exactly what I did do - it didn't even enter consideration that there might have been a slightly obscure alternative.

Lovely olde-worlde-Merseyrail-esque little ride, was that.

 

[OwenB]

That's the standard poster which has also appeared at Euston for at least the last 6 months.

Ah I see. The info would be correct at Euston, but not at King's Cross. How baffling.

 

[rebmcr]

In the past I've done Norwich-Waterloo, by changing at Stratford and taking the Jubilee line as it less hassle than going into Liverpool Street and on the tube, don't remember it being an issue going through the barriers (it was years ago though)

Could it have been a Norwich to London Waterloo† (rather than to London Terminals)?

This sign is still up at the Northern line gateline at King's Cross (as at around 6.30 this morning).

That's the standard poster which has also appeared at Euston for at least the last 6 months.

Ah I see. The info would be correct at Euston, but not at King's Cross. How baffling.

The information is correct, and no doubt effective and appropriate for keeping the bulk of travellers from making wrong assumptions about what Terminals means — but perhaps a small line "with minor exceptions, see staff for details" at the bottom would be good at Kings Cross St Pancras.

 

[OwenB]

The information is correct, and no doubt effective and appropriate for keeping the bulk of travellers from making wrong assumptions about what Terminals means — but perhaps a small line "with minor exceptions, see staff for details" at the bottom would be good at Kings Cross St Pancras.

I think a more accurate information poster at the Northern line gateline would read something like:

London Terminals tickets are only valid on the Underground to Old Street and Moorgate from this station

 

[westv]

I'm probably mistaken but some posters appear to come across as wanting a perhaps already poorly advertised benefit to passengers even more hidden away or removed.

 

[island]

Could it have been a Norwich to London Waterloo† (rather than to London Terminals)?

I’m not sure such a ticket exists.

 

[jon0844]

One station is giving out paperwork to show to LU gateline staff, it has got that bad!

 

[OwenB]

One station is giving out paperwork to show to LU gateline staff, it has got that bad!

View attachment 52404

Great, I'm glad they're actually addressing it.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Great, I'm glad they're actually addressing it.

Good that the front-line staff are helping (just as Euston VT ticket office staff tried to help when I was refused with a valid Caledonian Sleeper ticket) but it really needs addressing properly (for instance by printing a poster that is actually correct) and it is unacceptable that it has taken so long for that to occur.

 

[OwenB]

Good that the front-line staff are helping (just as Euston VT ticket office staff tried to help when I was refused with a valid Caledonian Sleeper ticket) but it really needs addressing properly (for instance by printing a poster that is actually correct) and it is unacceptable that it has taken so long for that to occur.

Yes, I agree 100%. The misleading poster is just causing confusion to staff and commuters alike.

 

[[.n]]

Could it have been a Norwich to London Waterloo† (rather than to London Terminals)?

It could well have been, it was over 15 years ago.

 

[Skymonster]

I think a more accurate information poster at the Northern line gateline would read something like:

London Terminals tickets are only valid on the Underground to Old Street and Moorgate from this station

Couldn't put that at Kings-X underground station as it would imply someone travelling into St Pancras could interpret their London Terminals ticket as being valid to Moorgate.

 

[ssamara]

Couldn't put that at Kings-X underground station as it would imply someone travelling into St Pancras could interpret their London Terminals ticket as being valid to Moorgate.

That basically is the case isn't it? Can a London Terminals ticket be valid to St Pancras but not Kings-X/Old Street/Moorgate? When coming from the Peterborough/Cambridge line at least, not sure what the rules are when travelling from say Brighton or Horsham.

So far gate staff have been letting me through at Kings Cross when I explain to them I'm travelling from/to Moorgate, but I've started avoiding Kings Cross whenever I can just because it's become a hassle, and there's always the chance someone will decide to be awkward and not let me through.

 

[swt_passenger]

...not sure what the rules are when travelling from say Brighton or Horsham...

From the south London Terminals fares were never valid beyond City Thameslink, that’s exactly why they just (in May) extended London Thameslink validity to Southern and Southeastern origins...

 

[jon0844]

What is it with King's Cross and their incorrect posters? It's not the first time.

I assume the poster wasn't sent to the station to display so there's someone there printing their own and not understanding the rules.

 

[Bletchleyite]

What is it with King's Cross and their incorrect posters? It's not the first time.

I assume the poster wasn't sent to the station to display so there's someone there printing their own and not understanding the rules.

It's a standard poster, so yes I expect it was sent to the station to display. The same poster is displayed at Euston and probably elsewhere.

 

[jon0844]

It's a standard poster, so yes I expect it was sent to the station to display. The same poster is displayed at Euston and probably elsewhere.

But shouldn't they only be at stations where there is no terminal railway station connected? Wouldn't there be a list of stations the poster should be displayed at?

In any case the wording is wrong at these stations because some London Terminals tickets are valid and some aren't, which is the reason for manual checks and NOT an outright refusal or threat of any sort of penalty.

Even making it awkward enough that some may not travel on the tube or will pay extra for a ticket they does work the gate is not really acceptable.

 

[Bletchleyite]

At most London terminal Tube stations there is indeed no validity.

 

[Hadders]

Your next challenge, should you choose to accept, is to try and use a London Terminals ticket at King's Cross at the Northern line gates to get to either Moorgate or Old Street. Good luck friend.

I accepted this challenge this morning.

Armed with a Gold Card discounted Anytime Day Single from Stevenage to London Terminals my ticket was rejected by the barrier at the Northern ticket hall at Kings Cross St Pancras.

I asked the barrier assistant to let me through and showed him my ticket. He asked me where I was going and I told him Old Street and he let me through.

We then had a conversation lasting several minutes about the situation. I referred to the poster being inaccurate and implied that to anyone ‘not in the know’ that they would have to pay more than they needed to. I suggested that the poster should be reworded to say something like:

‘Tickets to London Terminals are valid from this station to Old Street, Moorgate and Finsbury Park only. Please ask a member of staff to be let through the barrier.

Travel to any other station is not allowed and a new ticket needs to be purchased’

(I realise this isn’t quite correct as someone with a ticket to London Terminals from the MML isn’t valid but those from south of Bedford are issuedbto London Thameslink so wouldn’t be an issue, most from stations further north are probably valid into Kings Cross anyway. A solution would be needed for passengers on the HS1 with tickets to London Terminals but I’m sure a form of words could be found).

The member of staff claimed that the main reason for changing things was because of staff abuse at stations where passengers with invalid London Terminals tickets were trying to exit.

It does seem that despite the incorrect posters staff have been briefed so anyone encountering difficulties should persist, even though the overall position is far from satisfactory.

 

[rebmcr]

Can a London Terminals ticket be valid to St Pancras but not Kings-X/Old Street/Moorgate?

Indeed it can, the ticket must be valid between Finsbury Park and London Terminals to qualify for the LU portion.

 

[OwenB]

I accepted this challenge this morning.

Armed with a Gold Card discounted Anytime Day Single from Stevenage to London Terminals my ticket was rejected by the barrier at the Northern ticket hall at Kings Cross St Pancras.

I asked the barrier assistant to let me through and showed him my ticket. He asked me where I was going and I told him Old Street and he let me through.

We then had a conversation lasting several minutes about the situation. I referred to the poster being inaccurate and implied that to anyone ‘not in the know’ that they would have to pay more than they needed to. I suggested that the poster should be reworded to say something like:

‘Tickets to London Terminals are valid from this station to Old Street, Moorgate and Finsbury Park only. Please ask a member of staff to be let through the barrier.

Travel to any other station is not allowed and a new ticket needs to be purchased’

(I realise this isn’t quite correct as someone with a ticket to London Terminals from the MML isn’t valid but those from south of Bedford are issuedbto London Thameslink so wouldn’t be an issue, most from stations further north are probably valid into Kings Cross anyway. A solution would be needed for passengers on the HS1 with tickets to London Terminals but I’m sure a form of words could be found).

The member of staff claimed that the main reason for changing things was because of staff abuse at stations where passengers with invalid London Terminals tickets were trying to exit.

It does seem that despite the incorrect posters staff have been briefed so anyone encountering difficulties should persist, even though the overall position is far from satisfactory.

Thanks, I did post slightly tongue-in-cheek! Yes, the signs are definitely misleading and I don't think it would be too difficult to make ticket validity clearer. I don't think this current situation would be any better for the poor guys on the gateline...