London Terminals - has something changed?

[Blackbat]

Wouldn't an easier solution to be for tickets to go through at King's Cross and be rejected at gates at destination stations, except Old Street and Moorgate (where they would let you through)?

I thought that had always been the case?

 

[Ralph Ayres]

That's what happened until this month, causing ticket holders to assume that because the gate at Kings Cross let them into the Underground it must be valid to any station. Rejecting it gives gateline staff the chance to check where the passenger is going, so long as the staff actually know the rules...

 

[jon0844]

That's what happened until this month, causing ticket holders to assume that because the gate at Kings Cross let them into the Underground it must be valid to any station. Rejecting it gives gateline staff the chance to check where the passenger is going, so long as the staff actually know the rules...

That's fine and totally justified but posters saying tickets aren't valid is not acceptable. I'm near King's Cross so will look to see if they've still got these up and might even politely ask why.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Yes, what exactly is the plan for Crossrail? Will London Terminals season tickets from the west, for example, be valid until Liverpool Street? And the same from the east - will they be valid until Paddington?

 

[Hadders]

That's fine and totally justified but posters saying tickets aren't valid is not acceptable. I'm near King's Cross so will look to see if they've still got these up and might even politely ask why.

Spot on. I’ll be passing through Kings Cross next on Friday. I might try another bit of mystery shopping.

So far the discussion has concentrated on getting in at Kings Cross St Pancras, does anyone know what the position is getting out at Kings Cross St Pancras?

Yes, what exactly is the plan for Crossrail? Will London Terminals season tickets from the west, for example, be valid until Liverpool Street? And the same from the east - will they be valid until Paddington?

If I was a betting man I’d say they most certainly won’t extend validity of London Terminals tickets. TfL is strapped for cash remember. Maybe we’ll have a ‘London Elizabeth’ faux destination to accompany London Thameslink. This is really a discussion for a new thread.

 

[OwenB]

That's fine and totally justified but posters saying tickets aren't valid is not acceptable. I'm near King's Cross so will look to see if they've still got these up and might even politely ask why.

I think they've turned the one around by the Northern Line entrance so no longer viewable, but may only have been to display line closures on 15th/16th, so may be temporary.

 

[jon0844]

I think they've turned the one around by the Northern Line entrance so no longer viewable, but may only have been to display line closures on 15th/16th, so may be temporary.

I didn't see anything using the old ticket hall. I'll check the other ticket hall when I return later.

 

[CyrusWuff]

Yes, what exactly is the plan for Crossrail? Will London Terminals season tickets from the west, for example, be valid until Liverpool Street? And the same from the east - will they be valid until Paddington?

If I was a betting man, I'd say there will be no changes to London Terminals validity and you'll need a ticket with Zone 1 validity to go through the core given that most stations will have a shared gateline serving both Crossrail and London Underground.

Best case scenario is the creation of a "London Crossrail" group (mostly to annoy TfL, but the alternative would be butchery like "Ldn Elizabeth Ln" or some such) along the lines of "London Thameslink".

 

[swt_passenger]

Wouldn't an easier solution to be for tickets to go through at King's Cross and be rejected at gates at destination stations, except Old Street and Moorgate (where they would let you through)?

Surely that’s exactly how it did work, and that’s what caused the problem they are trying to solve, of people getting stuck in their system at other locations, and arguing with staff from the paid side of the barriers when they aren’t let out...

 

[Hadders]

Surely that’s exactly how it did work, and that’s what caused the problem they are trying to solve, of people getting stuck in their system at other locations, and arguing with staff from the paid side of the barriers when they aren’t let out...

But this is what happens across the country. If I board a train at, say, Milton Keynes with a ticket to Bletchley there’s nothing to physically stop me travelling anywhere I fancied. Obviously at some point I’m going to get caught out by either an onboard check or barriers at the destination. That is what should happen here, although appropriate signage should be in place to warn passengers if the restrictions if tickets to London Terminals have genuinely been being used to get a free ride to other Zone 1 stations.

It strikes me that LU/TfL are taking a sledgehammer to crack a nut here.

 

[jon0844]

I didn't see any posters in the northern ticket hall either.

I walked through 'landside' so couldn't see anything from the platforms up to the gateline.

Could London Terminals have unique coding (all with the same printed text, or the individual station where applicable as is favoured now) so gates could accept a ticket from one station over another? This allows valid tickets through the gates and saving staff and passengers time.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

I didn't see any posters in the northern ticket hall either.

I walked through 'landside' so couldn't see anything from the platforms up to the gateline.

Could London Terminals have unique coding (all with the same printed text, or the individual station where applicable as is favoured now) so gates could accept a ticket from one station over another? This allows valid tickets through the gates and saving staff and passengers time.

There simply isn't the space on the National Rail portion of the ticket's magnetic strip. There might be the space on the LU portion, but that has a fixed format and I think it would be a massive effort to redo this all, only a few years before magnetic strip tickets are to be widely phased out anyway.

 

[Haywain]

Could London Terminals have unique coding (all with the same printed text, or the individual station where applicable as is favoured now) so gates could accept a ticket from one station over another?

Not a hope in hell!

There might be the space on the LU portion,

Not worth thinking about. Even if there was, London Underground would not consider releasing that to be used by National Rail.

 

[greyman42]

If the ticket was issued to ‘London Terminals’ then it is valid on the Underground to Moorgate and the barrier staff were wrong.

If it was issued to Kings Crossnthen it isn’t valid to Moorgate.

So when staff refuse to allow you through the Underground barriers at Kings Cross to travel onto Moorgate, is it worth disputing this or are you wasting your time?

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Not worth thinking about. Even if there was, London Underground would not consider releasing that to be used by National Rail.

I was thinking more along the lines of that tickets without London Zonal validity could carry NR data within the therefore unnecessary LU portion. But as you and I both said, it's just not going to happen!

 

[jon0844]

Shame because it wouldn't be hard to have an extra digit so only tickets issued from a Great Northern origin on the ECML would allow the gate to open.

 

[717001]

Suspect there might be some queries on this at the GN Meet the Managers at Kings Cross tomorrow morning

 

[jon0844]

Suspect there might be some queries on this at the GN Meet the Managers at Kings Cross tomorrow morning

I wonder why my MP who went on and on about TfL taking over hasn't said anything about this?

I expect he has a Travel card season.

 

[Haywain]

Shame because it wouldn't be hard to have an extra digit so only tickets issued from a Great Northern origin on the ECML would allow the gate to open.

To be honest, if there was any available space I think that better uses than this could be found. As an aside, I believe that Scotrail take advantage of some of the LUL coding to refine the use of some of their tickets in barriers in Scotland, with no concerns about the impact on TfL barriers.

 

[Hadders]

I wonder why my MP who went on and on about TfL taking over hasn't said anything about this?

I expect he has a Travel card season.

Stephen McPartland is my MP and when he updates his website with details of his surgeries beyond July I intend to see him about a number of rail related issues.

 

[jon0844]

Stephen McPartland is my MP and when he updates his website with details of his surgeries beyond July I intend to see him about a number of rail related issues.

Stephen talked about the compensation scheme recently, presumably so it would seem like he helped organise it, but Grant Shapps has gone very quiet besides another rant about missing stops on the Moorgate services (Brookmans Park being his station).

 

[Hadders]

Suspect there might be some queries on this at the GN Meet the Managers at Kings Cross tomorrow morning

Good point. Maybe the GTR managers could pop downstairs and sort it out with their LU counterparts.

Unfortunately I’m not in London tomorrow.

 

[Hadders]

So when staff refuse to allow you through the Underground barriers at Kings Cross to travel onto Moorgate, is it worth disputing this or are you wasting your time?

Personally I’d query it. All staff at Kings Cross St Pancras have supposedly been briefed about the inter-availability. That is what gate line staff have told me.

 

[clagmonster]

If they're still struggling with this issue at KX after 30 years how on earth are people going to cope with Crossrail when it will almost certainly have to be the case that the ticket gates in the Liverpool St (and that includes Moorgate!)

Surely Liverpool St already needs to accept London Terminals tickets for passengers from Stratford and beyond.

What is the maximum character limit on the station fields on the new format tickets. Could something like "London Kings X, Moorgate or Old St" replace London Terminals on the suburban tickets in the same manner as group stations destinations have been changed elsewere? Obviously Liverpool St will need adding for longer distance tickets, and St Pancras, Euston and even Paddington on even longer distance tickets. This would then, if possible to implement, show validity more clearly, though the destination would probably be too long on long distance tickets with a large array of valid London Terminals.

 

[Hadders]

But if all stations the ticket was valid to were named on the ticket someone with a ticket from Edinburgh to London could rock up at Kings Cross underground thinking they could travel to Euston.

The Stratford - Liverpool Street inter-availability is an interesting one. We haven’t had any reports of London Terminals tickets being refused at Liverpool Street Underground station, yet but I bet the issues they’re trying to prevent at Kings Cross are also happening at Liverpool Street. You there fore have to wonder why they’re treating Kings Cross differently to Liverpool Street.

 

[clagmonster]

I did not consider the possibility of a passenger with an Edinburgh to London ticket trying to use the Underground to Euston, fair point. I suppose it would stop them trying to use it to Victoria though, assuming the ticket isn't valid to Victoria BR via Reading and Clapham Jn. I think though the idea would be best limited to those suburban stations for which Kings Cross, St. Pancras, Old St and Moorgate are the only valid London Terminals.

At Liverpool St, I suppose the validity is the opposite way round, so somebody entering the Underground will have a ticket with origin London Terminals and vice-versa, so they couldn't end up trying to travel through on the London Underground to another London Terminal, thus the problem shouldn't occur to the same degree.

 

[Hadders]

I did not consider the possibility of a passenger with an Edinburgh to London ticket trying to use the Underground to Euston, fair point. I suppose it would stop them trying to use it to Victoria though, assuming the ticket isn't valid to Victoria BR via Reading and Clapham Jn. I think though the idea would be best limited to those suburban stations for which Kings Cross, St. Pancras, Old St and Moorgate are the only valid London Terminals.

At Liverpool St, I suppose the validity is the opposite way round, so somebody entering the Underground will have a ticket with origin London Terminals and vice-versa, so they couldn't end up trying to travel through on the London Underground to another London Terminal, thus the problem shouldn't occur to the same degree.

But what about someone who enters the Underground at Stratford with a London Terminals ticket (no barriers iirc) and try to exit at other stations other than Liverpool Street.

 

[clagmonster]

Not and awful lot you can do in a no barrier situation. It is effectively the same as any other ticketless passenger. Perhaps using posters at affected BR stations to educate passengers as to the limits of validity on LUL.

 

[jon0844]

None of this is helped by the fact that many people may genuinely think a ticket to a London Terminal would mean ANY London Terminal. Another reason why the new ticket format with more room could print the actual destination stations and not say London Terminals at all.

 

[OwenB]

None of this is helped by the fact that many people may genuinely think a ticket to a London Terminal would mean ANY London Terminal. Another reason why the new ticket format with more room could print the actual destination stations and not say London Terminals at all.

Even if a season ticket to London Terminals came with a leaflet detailing ticket validity, it would help. I mean I only found out it was valid to certain underground stations by chance.