London Terminals - has something changed?

[OwenB]

Stephen talked about the compensation scheme recently, presumably so it would seem like he helped organise it, but Grant Shapps has gone very quiet besides another rant about missing stops on the Moorgate services (Brookmans Park being his station).

Shapps is my MP too. He's definitely all mouth, no trousers.

 

[adrock1976]

Would there be sufficient space for the "To" field to have something like "London Terminals Not Underground" for those flows that do not have interavailability with London Underground?

Also for the Intercity flows, could it be something like "London Terminals + HHY OLD MOG" (the codes for Highbury & Islington, Old Street, and Moorgate)?

 

[westv]

Suspect there might be some queries on this at the GN Meet the Managers at Kings Cross tomorrow morning

Anybody know if it was mentioned at all?

 

[Haywain]

Would there be sufficient space for the "To" field to have something like "London Terminals Not Underground" for those flows that do not have interavailability with London Underground?

Also for the Intercity flows, could it be something like "London Terminals + HHY OLD MOG" (the codes for Highbury & Islington, Old Street, and Moorgate)?

Every variation requires a new NLC code and many London Terminals stations can't accommodate more acceptable codes in the barrier logic, so it would just be moving the problem to somewhere else. The solution is, of course, in better technology but getting the National Rail industry and TfL to agree on such matters is an intractable problem.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I don't often advocate removal of validity, but I really don't see any case for this specific one at all now Moorgate is served more frequently 7 days a week. It's pointless complexity. If you want to go to Moorgate, change at Finsbury Park or just use contactless and pay your Tube fare.

 

[Blackbat]

Anybody know if it was mentioned at all

I know a friend mentioned it, but as a Knebworth commuter he had quite a lot of other "feedback" to provide as well...

 

[Blackbat]

I don't often advocate removal of validity, but I really don't see any case for this specific one at all now Moorgate is served more frequently 7 days a week. It's pointless complexity. If you want to go to Moorgate, change at Finsbury Park or just use contactless and pay your Tube fare.

The new timetables have removed fast trains to FPK for many users {personally my time to fpk has increased by around 30%), so the route from King's Cross to Moorgate is more important than ever.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The new timetables have removed fast trains to FPK for many users {personally my time to fpk has increased by around 30%), so the route from King's Cross to Moorgate is more important than ever.

Then pay your Tube fare like everyone else.

I'm sorry, I can't see any reason why London Terminals should allow LU travel except in the small number of cases where LU actually runs on the same physical line serving the same stations (Bakerloo for example). It's just confusing, and we would be better without it.

 

[Hadders]

I don't often advocate removal of validity, but I really don't see any case for this specific one at all now Moorgate is served more frequently 7 days a week. It's pointless complexity. If you want to go to Moorgate, change at Finsbury Park or just use contactless and pay your Tube fare.

Then pay your Tube fare like everyone else.

I'm sorry, I can't see any reason why London Terminals should allow LU travel except in the small number of cases where LU actually runs on the same physical line serving the same stations (Bakerloo for example). It's just confusing, and we would be better without it.

I disagree. As I mentioned further upthread it’s also about passengers from the Hertford Loop Stations getting to Kings Cross, particularly evenings and weekends when the service isn’t that frequent.

Why does the solution have to be removing flexibility? We live in a world where it should be possible to deal with this type of issue by using technology.

What next? Removing inter-availability between Stratford and Liverpool Street? Saying you can’t use a London Terminals ticket having arrived at Waterloo to carry onto Charing Cross or London Bridge Via Waterloo East? The TOCs/LU want this to happen so passengers have to pay more.

 

[[.n]]

Then pay your Tube fare like everyone else.

I'm sorry, I can't see any reason why London Terminals should allow LU travel except in the small number of cases where LU actually runs on the same physical line serving the same stations (Bakerloo for example). It's just confusing, and we would be better without it.

What about stations like Stratford (where I think this is true), the same platform island provides either LU or NR services to London Liverpool Street (but on different physical lines).

I can't see any reason why travelling between two places that are the same using the same mode of transport (train) (in roughly the same amount of time - so excluding any express service arguments) should involve paying more depending on which version of "London" you arrive at!

 

[rebmcr]

I disagree. As I mentioned further upthread it’s also about passengers from the Hertford Loop Stations getting to Kings Cross, particularly evenings and weekends when the service isn’t that frequent.

What about passengers who want to go to Paddington from Moorgate? What about the ones at Victoria who don't want to change at Lewisham for London Bridge?

There are 196 permutations of journeys possible by London Underground between stations in the London Terminals group. (18 stations; City Thameslink and Fenchurch Street excluded; Kings Cross St Pancras and the Waterloos treated as one; 14² = 196)

Only SIX of those permutations have this interavailability, and it's only because of an old NR line that no longer exists. The only truly fair solutions are:

1. All London Terminals tickets are valid for one cross-London transfer to any other terminal; or
   
2. Everyone must pay (PAYG or Season) for the Zone 1 LU fare.

Passengers wishing to continue using the route are 100% right in doing so, regardless of what the gate attendants say, but trying to spin it as "more important than ever" is woefully privileged.

 

[trevmonk]

In their zeal to reject London Terminal tickets Tfl have overlooked tickets with a London Thameslink destination. I tried one in the underground barriers at Kings Cross / St Pancras today and it still works. Perhaps they'll be on to those next.

 

[Hadders]

What about passengers who want to go to Paddington from Moorgate? What about the ones at Victoria who don't want to change at Lewisham for London Bridge?

There are 196 permutations of journeys possible by London Underground between stations in the London Terminals group. (18 stations; City Thameslink and Fenchurch Street excluded; Kings Cross St Pancras and the Waterloos treated as one; 14² = 196)

Only SIX of those permutations have this interavailability, and it's only because of an old NR line that no longer exists. The only truly fair solutions are:

1. All London Terminals tickets are valid for one cross-London transfer to any other terminal; or
   
2. Everyone must pay (PAYG or Season) for the Zone 1 LU fare.

Passengers wishing to continue using the route are 100% right in doing so, regardless of what the gate attendants say, but trying to spin it as "more important than ever" is woefully privileged.

Another thing to bear in mind is the capacity of the Northern City Line. Passengers are often left behind at Finsbury in the morning peak, althoughbthe 717s will allow a few more passengers to board the trains cannot be made any longer. Another reason to allow the inter-availability to continue.

 

[mattdickinson]

If I was a betting man, I'd say there will be no changes to London Terminals validity and you'll need a ticket with Zone 1 validity to go through the core given that most stations will have a shared gateline serving both Crossrail and London Underground.

Best case scenario is the creation of a "London Crossrail" group (mostly to annoy TfL, but the alternative would be butchery like "Ldn Elizabeth Ln" or some such) along the lines of "London Thameslink".

As far as I know Stratford and Canary Wharf to Paddington will be subject to LUL pricing, and the only change will be the addition of Moorgate as a London Terminal from the east.

 

[rebmcr]

Another thing to bear in mind is the capacity of the Northern City Line. Passengers are often left behind at Finsbury in the morning peak, althoughbthe 717s will allow a few more passengers to board the trains cannot be made any longer. Another reason to allow the inter-availability to continue.

Again though, there are people left behind on many of the lines into London.

It's an example why the current availability is useful, not a reason for it to necessarily continue.

 

[Haywain]

it’s also about passengers from the Hertford Loop Stations getting to Kings Cross, particularly evenings and weekends when the service isn’t that frequent.

Withdrawal of travel between Moorgate and King's Cross would have no impact as interavailability also exists between Finsbury Park and King's Cross.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Withdrawal of travel between Moorgate and King's Cross would have no impact as interavailability also exists between Finsbury Park and King's Cross.

And that one is one that probably makes sense, because the Tube is operating the actual same route as the railway, not a slightly different one.

Having said that, there are also plenty of trains from Finsbury Park to Kings Cross, and the Tube doesn't operate on the actual same tracks so there isn't the potential for confusion there is on the Watford DC line.

 

[Failed Unit]

It will be interesting come 2020 - what passengers will do when the majority of GN services go into the core.

I don't know myself I have 3 choices.
1. Go direct on an all stops service taking about 52 minutes
2. Change at Finsbury Park and take about 43 minutes (risking not getting on a train at Finsbury Park maybe isn't worth the risk)
3. Change at Farringdon and take about the same time as 2 (I am guessing - we won't know until it opens) - No idea if I use this option if I will use Crossrail or Met to get to Moorgate

Non of them will involve using the barriers at Kings Crross and unless you meet and RPI - no-one will actually know which way is selected.

Not sure if people from Peterborough / Cambridge who will still have trains to Kings Cross will still use the tube or will head to trains going to Farrington.

The problem will be reducing - although admit it will not go away. It is frustrating that you must see staff. It is really slowing the flow down at the station as a queue forms behind the people with rejected tickets although I guess we soon get used to heading for the staff. As others say irrespective - someone travelling from Hertford - Kings Cross will almost certianly use the Victoria line so this does need a better solution. (unless they force everyone into St Pancras)

 

[sheff1]

I don't often advocate removal of validity, but I really don't see any case for this specific one at all now Moorgate is served more frequently 7 days a week. It's pointless complexity. If you want to go to Moorgate, change at Finsbury Park or just use contactless and pay your Tube fare.

You keep telling people to change at Finsbury Park - rather difficult if the train doesn't call there.

People with railcards can't get the discount they are entitled to if they use contactless.

 

[OwenB]

Does anyone know if the Key opens the gate at King's Cross or is it an issue for those too? Edit: I mean Key tickets valid for London Terminals.

Sorry, slightly off topic - can you use the Key on the underground if you have your zones 1-6 season ticket loaded onto it? I like the idea of the Key, but seems to be poorly administrated (surprise!).

 

[Hadders]

Does anyone know if the Key opens the gate at King's Cross or is it an issue for those too? Edit: I mean Key tickets valid for London Terminals.

Sorry, slightly off topic - can you use the Key on the underground if you have your zones 1-6 season ticket loaded onto it? I like the idea of the Key, but seems to be poorly administrated (surprise!).

1st question i’ve No idea but i doubt it given the position with paper tickets.

2nd question is yes although there have been reports of issues on buses but I haven’t heard about any issues recently. Note that unlike Oyster if you go outside zones 1-6 there’s no PAYG facility available.

 

[OwenB]

1st question i’ve No idea but i doubt it given the position with paper tickets.

2nd question is yes although there have been reports of issues on buses but I haven’t heard about any issues recently. Note that unlike Oyster if you go outside zones 1-6 there’s no PAYG facility available.

Great thanks. Considering going for the Key at next renewal, but wary of teething issues still at around 2 years in.

 

[Blackbat]

Can the key with an annual season ticket loaded be used to prove eligibility for a third off discount on PAYG Oyster in the off-peak period, as the Gold annual season ticket can.

 

[Hadders]

Can the key with an annual season ticket loaded be used to prove eligibility for a third off discount on PAYG Oyster in the off-peak period, as the Gold annual season ticket can.

Yes as the Key should be accompanied with a Gold Card record.

 

[rebmcr]

Great thanks. Considering going for the Key at next renewal, but wary of teething issues still at around 2 years in.

My colleague uses it for Sevenoaks <-> Hammersmith, and seems very happy with it.

 

[OwenB]

My colleague uses it for Sevenoaks <-> Hammersmith, and seems very happy with it.

Cheers. I'll probably end up going with the Key, it's got to be better than the old paper tickets

 

[omen666]

But what about someone who enters the Underground at Stratford with a London Terminals ticket (no barriers iirc) and try to exit at other stations other than Liverpool Street.

PBO>KGX London Terminals ticket works at LST Mainline gateline Entry & Exit. Have used it many times including recently, going round the loop before when the ECML is up the spout. Doesnt work on LUL gateline either way. Also have my best friend who has a RMF-LST London terminals and same.

Then pay your Tube fare like everyone else.

I'm sorry, I can't see any reason why London Terminals should allow LU travel except in the small number of cases where LU actually runs on the same physical line serving the same stations (Bakerloo for example). It's just confusing, and we would be better without it.

The easement has existed for all my substantial commuting years and as far back as my dad joining LUL and retiring based at KGX. It is only confusing for passengers that dont know and find out about it (albeit too late now) and the majority of LUL SA's

What about stations like Stratford (where I think this is true), the same platform island provides either LU or NR services to London Liverpool Street (but on different physical lines).

I can't see any reason why travelling between two places that are the same using the same mode of transport (train) (in roughly the same amount of time - so excluding any express service arguments) should involve paying more depending on which version of "London" you arrive at!

Never been the case and no point, your London Terminals ticket is to LST, the line doesnt split like at FPK and go to other stations like FPK does to MOG or OLD,

What about passengers who want to go to Paddington from Moorgate? What about the ones at Victoria who don't want to change at Lewisham for London Bridge?

There are 196 permutations of journeys possible by London Underground between stations in the London Terminals group. (18 stations; City Thameslink and Fenchurch Street excluded; Kings Cross St Pancras and the Waterloos treated as one; 14² = 196)

Only SIX of those permutations have this interavailability, and it's only because of an old NR line that no longer exists. The only truly fair solutions are:

1. All London Terminals tickets are valid for one cross-London transfer to any other terminal; or
   
2. Everyone must pay (PAYG or Season) for the Zone 1 LU fare.

Passengers wishing to continue using the route are 100% right in doing so, regardless of what the gate attendants say, but trying to spin it as "more important than ever" is woefully privileged.

I respectfully disagree with both your solutions.

1. My PBO>KGX London terminals allows me to if I wanted to travel all day back and forth between PBO>KGX/MOG/OLD, so why be limited to one journey a day?
2. This is a premium for such a short journey, granted those living in Z1 have to so my argument doesnt hold up all too well, maybe a LUL discount for Gold card holders and monthlies?

It will be interesting come 2020 - what passengers will do when the majority of GN services go into the core.

I don't know myself I have 3 choices.
1. Go direct on an all stops service taking about 52 minutes
2. Change at Finsbury Park and take about 43 minutes (risking not getting on a train at Finsbury Park maybe isn't worth the risk)
3. Change at Farringdon and take about the same time as 2 (I am guessing - we won't know until it opens) - No idea if I use this option if I will use Crossrail or Met to get to Moorgate

Non of them will involve using the barriers at Kings Crross and unless you meet and RPI - no-one will actually know which way is selected.

Not sure if people from Peterborough / Cambridge who will still have trains to Kings Cross will still use the tube or will head to trains going to Farrington.

The problem will be reducing - although admit it will not go away. It is frustrating that you must see staff. It is really slowing the flow down at the station as a queue forms behind the people with rejected tickets although I guess we soon get used to heading for the staff. As others say irrespective - someone travelling from Hertford - Kings Cross will almost certianly use the Victoria line so this does need a better solution. (unless they force everyone into St Pancras)

Changing at FPK even if you do get on (trains are more frequent in the peak) takes longer than the other two, only by a few minutes, rather stay on the train and be seated as far as possible.

 

[Failed Unit]

Does anyone know if the Key opens the gate at King's Cross or is it an issue for those too? Edit: I mean Key tickets valid for London Terminals.

Sorry, slightly off topic - can you use the Key on the underground if you have your zones 1-6 season ticket loaded onto it? I like the idea of the Key, but seems to be poorly administrated (surprise!).

It can’t. You show the key to staff (who can’t read it) and off you go.

If you do get the key - don’t use keygo as well. It overcharges badly.

For a season ticket replacement fine. As a smart card ticket it just doesnt work. I have used it a couple of times for a Blackfriars- WGC journey. Constantly charges between London Kx and Finsbury Park. Often doesn’t recognise tap in / tap out despite opening gates. KeyGo charges 2x single fares if you leave at Moorgate and tap in a Kings Cross (not recognising London terminals). Will charge WGC - Blackfriars as 2 separate journeys if you need to change at Kings Cross / St Pancras.

In short it gets it wrong more than it gets it right. But that is another thread.

 

[OwenB]

It can’t. You show the key to staff (who can’t read it) and off you go.

If you do get the key - don’t use keygo as well. It overcharges badly.

For a season ticket replacement fine. As a smart card ticket it just doesnt work. I have used it a couple of times for a Blackfriars- WGC journey. Constantly charges between London Kx and Finsbury Park. Often doesn’t recognise tap in / tap out despite opening gates. KeyGo charges 2x single fares if you leave at Moorgate and tap in a Kings Cross (not recognising London terminals). Will charge WGC - Blackfriars as 2 separate journeys if you need to change at Kings Cross / St Pancras.

In short it gets it wrong more than it gets it right. But that is another thread.

Thanks. Yes, would be for a gold card renewal. I'll take a look for the relevant thread(s) as I'm conscious that I'm going a bit off topic.

 

[rebmcr]

Changing at FPK even if you do get on (trains are more frequent in the peak) takes longer than the other two, only by a few minutes, rather stay on the train and be seated as far as possible.

I don't think it's justifiable to feel entitled to use the Circle without paying, just because it's there and the Finsbury Park option is less convenient. The seasons which include LU1-6 are more expensive for a reason.

As long as the easement is valid then everyone should by all means use it, but arguing that it's necessary will never stand up to scrutiny.