London Terminals to Kent with HS1 flexibility

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ophicleide

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I was wondering if I could have some advice re. travelling to Kent? Since I live out in East London, the easiest departure station for most places in Kent is Stratford International, travelling on the High Speed service. Coming back, however, I would like the flexibility to choose whether to come back either to St Pancras or to one of the other terminals (e.g. Victoria, Charing Cross etc.) on the old “slow” service since sometimes that is more convenient and even quicker if I have to get somewhere in the City or South London.

I presumed that all I required is a London Terminals* -> (e.g.) Faversham “PLUS HIGH SPEED” return but when I last asked, I was told that such a ticket would is not valid / available because: a) “PLUS HIGH SPEED” is not valid on the “slow” trains (which seems unlikely to me, but there we are); and b) St Pancras is not a London Terminal for the purposes of HS1.

[* or perhaps a Stratford International -> (e.g.) Faversham + HS and an excess on the return to go back to London Terminals, but when I have tried this using the HS1 line to Canterbury it’s caused so much trouble, it seems easier to ask at Stratford International for the ticket from St Pancras, which only costs about 10p more].

Anyway, I suppose it is possible that St Pancras isn’t a London Terminal, even though this seems contradict what National Rail Enquiries says:
[url=http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/crossing_london.html]NRE[/url] said:
The list of London termini stations, defined as 'London Terminals' for ticketing purposes are:
[...]
St Pancras International - Serves the East Midlands including Derby, Leicester, Nottingham and Sheffield, and is the terminus for high speed domestic services from Stratford Int'l, Ashford Int'l, Canterbury, Dover and Faversham. Services also operate to Gatwick Airport, Luton Airport, Bedford and Brighton. St Pancras International is the London terminus for Eurostar services to Brussels and Paris.
so therefore I was wondering if it is possible to get a ticket with this sort of flexibility and, if so, what should I ask for?

Thanks!
 
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LexyBoy

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I presumed that all I required is a London Terminals* -> (e.g.) Faversham “PLUS HIGH SPEED” return but when I last asked, I was told that such a ticket would is not valid / available because: a) “PLUS HIGH SPEED” is not valid on the “slow” trains (which seems unlikely to me, but there we are)
Wrong: first off, it's "plus high speed" not "high speed only", and secondly it's more expensive than the tickets with alternative routeings so is also valid on those other routes.
b) St Pancras is not a London Terminal for the purposes of HS1.
*facepalm*

Ask which London Terminals are valid via HS1.

St Pancras is not a valid London Terminal for travel via the "slow" route, maybe this is the route of the confusion.

Your "Plus High Speed" ticket gives the flexibility you want.
 

island

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I haven't checked the prices but it may prove cheaper to buy a NOT VALID ON HS1 ticket and then upgrade/excess one or other of the legs.
 

bb21

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You should ask them if St Pancras is not the appropriate London terminal on a ticket routed Plus High Speed then what is?

Faversham - London Terminals Route Plus High Speed is certainly valid on the classic 'slow' line into various south London terminals as the price is higher than the equivalent Route Not Valid On HS1 fare for every fare type.
 

ophicleide

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Thanks for all those comments; that’s much as I thought. The reason I didn’t argue it at the time was that I couldn’t remember if HS1 tickets were marked “St Pancras -> Xxx” rather than “London Terminals” which may have justified that reasoning I got which otherwise didn’t make any sense to me.

Could I also clarify; if I do buy a Stratford International -> Faversham + HS return, can I then buy an excess from Stratford International -> London Terminals on the return portion and use it to come back to another terminal?
 

LexyBoy

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Thanks for all those comments; that’s much as I thought. The reason I didn’t argue it at the time was that I couldn’t remember if HS1 tickets were marked “St Pancras -> Xxx” rather than “London Terminals” which may have justified that reasoning I got which otherwise didn’t make any sense to me.

Even if marked "London St Pancras" they would be valid via the Thameslink route and London Bridge. Maybe not Victoria though.

Could I also clarify; if I do buy a Stratford International -> Faversham + HS return, can I then buy an excess from Stratford International -> London Terminals on the return portion and use it to come back to another terminal?

I don't think you could, no. An overdistance excess is only valid for overdistance travel in the original line of route, so you'd have to go to St Pancras.

I'm not sure whether Faversham-Stratford International has permitted routes via London; if it does then you'd not need any extra fare. I suspect it's unlikely though.

I thought the conclusion in the other thread was that you'd not have any trouble with an Off Peak ticket in the evening from St P?
 

ophicleide

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LexyBoy said:
I'm not sure whether Faversham-Stratford International has permitted routes via London; if it does then you'd not need any extra fare.
It's a bit unusual in being served only by the DLR and the HS service to/from St Pancras so, in the absence of a 'Stratford (all stations)' options are a bit limited...
 

island

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I'm not sure whether Faversham-Stratford International has permitted routes via London; if it does then you'd not need any extra fare. I suspect it's unlikely though.

Faversham to Stratford Int SE is valid via London or on map NK (HS1). The route does not have a † so a cross-London transfer by LU, or travel by DLR, isn't included. I conclude that you can travel via London and join HS1 at St Pancras, but the transfer between the southern terminal and St Pancras is at your own cost.
 

reb0118

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I don't think you could, no. An overdistance excess is only valid for overdistance travel in the original line of route.

Are you sure? I always thought if you overdistance excessed a fare to a destination that had more than one permitted route from the origin then, cateras paribus, all routes became valid.

e.g. A passenger holds a ticket from Edinburgh [EDB] to Croy [CRO]. Prior to travel he excesses it to Glasgow [GLC/GLQ]. The ticket now is the equivalent to a EDB - GLC/GLQ ticket and as such would be valid via Falkirk, Bathgate, Shotts, & Carstairs.

I could be wrong though?
 

bb21

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I could be wrong though?

You are correct. An excess causes a variation of the original terms of the ticket. The original ticket has now become the new ticket it has been excessed to, therefore takes on the terms of the new ticket.
 

OwlMan

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You are correct. An excess causes a variation of the original terms of the ticket. The original ticket has now become the new ticket it has been excessed to, therefore takes on the terms of the new ticket.

An overiding excess is only valid on the route of the original ticket. If you wish to travel by a different route an overiding excess is not valid.

The Manual
A customer travelling to an alternative destination station, deviating from the route(s) shown on the ticket, will be required to pay the cheapest Single or Return fare, available for immediate travel, for the part of the journey not covered by the ticket held. The customer needs to comply with National Rail Conditions of Carriage, Condition 19. For details, click here.


 

ophicleide

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Is there an official definition of an excess fare and how it works? I had thought its effect was as bb21 described but then there isn’t anything in the NCOC about it.

An overiding excess is only valid on the route of the original ticket. If you wish to travel by a different route an overiding excess is not valid.
Is that section of the Manual primarily concerned with excesses or is it just a general section about ticket validity?
 

LexyBoy

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Is there an official definition of an excess fare and how it works? I had thought its effect was as bb21 described but then there isn’t anything in the NCOC about it.

Excesses are covered in the Routeing Guide, although I can't recall whether overdistance excesses are mentioned.

The quote from OwlMan seems to refer to cases where the new destination is to the side of the original route, for example Tonbridge (? don't know that area well). A new single ticket is different to an excess fare.
 

ophicleide

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hmmm....I’ve looked through it (or at least the sections where I thought it would be) but without much success; do you know whereabouts they are covered?
 

ophicleide

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I made this journey last week for the first time in a while. On my way back from Canterbury, I managed to buy the relevant excess from the station (at a cost of 5p!). What I hadn’t realised is that the excess is marked Canterbury Stations -> London Terminals and not Stratford Int -> London Terminals.

I would have thought that would put beyond doubt its validity to another London Terminal, irrespective of whether there is a valid route through Stratford.
 
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