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London to Cambridge
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R
RailUK Forums
No, but it would be valid on non-stop trains from King's Cross to Cambridge.
If you need to travel from Liverpool St, walk to Moorgate (which is a short walk) and take the Underground to King's Cross, which is included in your Season ticket.
If you need to travel from Liverpool St, walk to Moorgate (which is a short walk) and take the Underground to King's Cross, which is included in your Season ticket.
RJ
Established Member
If you want to travel from London to Cambridge via the WA cheaply, buy a ticket from London to Finsbury Park. Conversely if you want to travel via the East Coast, buy a ticket from London to Hackney Downs.
Do be prepared for possibility that you may have problems with revenue protection staff however.
Do be prepared for possibility that you may have problems with revenue protection staff however.
Good old map WA 
Even better, you can return by the other route, and alight at Finsbury Park! I wouldn't try this unless you have the maps and paperwork to hand, and are prepared to argue the rules, and appeal a UPFN
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Or if a National Rail train is leaving Moorgate at the right time, you can take this from Moorgate and interchange at Finsbury Park
Even better, you can return by the other route, and alight at Finsbury Park! I wouldn't try this unless you have the maps and paperwork to hand, and are prepared to argue the rules, and appeal a UPFN--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
Or if a National Rail train is leaving Moorgate at the right time, you can take this from Moorgate and interchange at Finsbury Park
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Really? Surprised this is allowed, seems insane that is
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You could, but then you'd only be able to get the semi-fast or the slow train to Cambridge, whereas if you go to Kings Cross you can get the non-stop
RJ
Established Member
Nothing in the NRG surprises me any more. Just a case of keeping an eye out for the best routes and taking advantage of them whilst they're still valid.
Eagle
Established Member
Surely the other way round? (With a theoretical route of Finsbury ParkLondonHarlowCambridge.)
No; the route is Liv St - Tottenham Hale - Harlow - Cambridge - Stevenage - Finsbury Park.
Eagle
Established Member
You can take any route you like between the two end points (in this case London Liverpool Street and Finsbury Park) on that map which doesn't pass through the same station or station group more than once. In this case Liverpool Street–Hackney group–Tottenham group–Broxbourne group–Stansted group–Cambridge–Hitchin–Stevenage–Finsbury Park is such a route.
(And depending on ticket type, you may be able to stop this journey short at Cambridge
)that's just... amazing!
which ticket types would/wouldn't be valid for getting off at CBG?
also by my reading would Hackney Downs to LT be valid via CBG too, from KGX?
is this correct?
many thanks
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I also note that the associated-london-terminals spreadsheet notes that FPK is a valid terminal to KGX, MOG and OLD, but not LST, is this a problem?
which ticket types would/wouldn't be valid for getting off at CBG?
also by my reading would Hackney Downs to LT be valid via CBG too, from KGX?
is this correct?
many thanks
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I also note that the associated-london-terminals spreadsheet notes that FPK is a valid terminal to KGX, MOG and OLD, but not LST, is this a problem?
If you attempted to get through the gateline at Cambridge with such a ticket, I doubt it would be accepted.
Gateline staff are not trained on the Routeing Guide. They would probably pass to to an RPI (if available) who may argue you were travelling 'over distance' beyond your destination and either attempt to issue a Penalty Fare or refer you for possible prosecution. I think that, ultimately, you'd win, but only you can decide whether or not you want to go through all of that!
I know someone who, despite having a valid reservation and itinerary for the train he was on, was going to be chucked off a train and stranded ~300 miles from home because the guard didn't think that it should be possible to go a long route and didn't regard an itinerary/reservation as evidence of a contract. Only after the intervention of other passengers was he allowed to continue his journey, and was issued a UFN. The UFN was cancelled but the Train Company did not apologise.
A close equivalent to someone doing a similar journey to this could be the Newcastle-Carlisle ticket being valid via Leeds & Manchester until around 2006. A forum members' brother did this journey, and was (incorrectly, but to some extent understandably) charged for a new ticket. He wrote to Northern and got his money back. They amended the routeing guide though it was around a year before the loophole was closed. Most loopholes do get closed when people are 'caught' using them and/or when they are published here. This particular loophole is being removed anyway as part of the 'Base maps' project, which is heavily delayed.
RJ
Established Member
To be fair if I was that TOC, I wouldn't apologise either. For the passenger, that's a p*ss taking equivalent to having your cake and eating it! With my one, my ticket and itinerary were withdrawn and I received an email from the TOC a couple of hours after I got off the train telling me they knew what I did. Reading between the lines, they seemed to be more upset about the guard issuing me with a £130+ ticket for free!
John @ home
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I guess then this is a future plan then?
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=69969
I'd hate to be prosecuted!
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completely unrelated: I've always been slightly confused as to how the two TOCs at Cambridge split the ticket revenue, as the slow CBG->LST line is barely used, whereas CBG->KGX is nearly always full!
I guess they count people on and off on certain days?
http://www.railforums.co.uk/showthread.php?t=69969
I'd hate to be prosecuted!
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completely unrelated: I've always been slightly confused as to how the two TOCs at Cambridge split the ticket revenue, as the slow CBG->LST line is barely used, whereas CBG->KGX is nearly always full!
I guess they count people on and off on certain days?
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Through ORCATS.
These threads answer every question you could want to know about ORCATS that is in the public domain:
Unfortunately the exact figures and formulae used are not in the public domain.
thanks yorkie!
wow, you'd think it would be easier to just rollout smartcards across the network rather than go through all that (though I suppose they only have to do it once until new services/routes/trains are introduced, and then it's a quick change)
wow, you'd think it would be easier to just rollout smartcards across the network rather than go through all that (though I suppose they only have to do it once until new services/routes/trains are introduced, and then it's a quick change)
You say that but, for example, I travel from York to Sheffield there are three routes I could take, how does the smart card know which one I've taken to charge an appropriate fare for the journey?
As discussed in other threads I doubt PAYG will be viable nationally, and it is likely tickets will simply be loaded onto cards. For York-Sheffield there is only one routeing option anyway ('Any Permitted').You say that but, for example, I travel from York to Sheffield there are three routes I could take, how does the smart card know which one I've taken to charge an appropriate fare for the journey?
Some people think that smart cards will allow mileage based pricing to be introduced but that's a separate matter, not viable for the reasons you state, and if anyone proposes it I ask them my standard questions on that matter and by the time they've given an answer they always end up admitting that there has to be market based pricing.
However if anyone wants to debate any of these issues further, it is best done in a separate thread.
For the record, the Cambridge ticket loophole was pointed out to ATOC in 1998 in writing, but they appear to have done nothing to close it, so I think its a bit unfair for TOCs to try and Penalty Fare passengers using it. That said, I would not attempt this journey unless you really are confident about your knowledge of the Routeing Guide (even though its written very unambiguosuly for this case) and have spare time on your hands to appeal
Someone should write a cut-out-and-keep cribsheet for the Cambridge papers explaining to season ticket holders how to save £££, and why it's valid.
That'd get it fixed
That'd get it fixed
Just reading your standard questions led me to discover that the York to Whitby (46 miles by bus) offpeak return is £12.80 yet bizarrely the cheapest ticket from Scarborough to Whitby (19 miles by bus) is... £50.60. A simple split at York brings it down to a still-expensive-but-nearly-half-theprice £30. Hilariously offtopic but your post is what prompted me to find out. The more you read about the fare system the more fascinating it becomes
bb21
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But there is no direct track between Scarborough and Whitby. The distance by rail is 128 miles.
Just reading your standard questions led me to discover that the York to Whitby (46 miles by bus) offpeak return is £12.80 yet bizarrely the cheapest ticket from Scarborough to Whitby (19 miles by bus) is... £50.60. A simple split at York brings it down to a still-expensive-but-nearly-half-theprice £30. Hilariously offtopic but your post is what prompted me to find out. The more you read about the fare system the more fascinating it becomes
The £12.80 ticket is a York - Whitby Off-Peak Day Return (CDR) Route: Not Via Darlington (not M-F before 0915).
The £50.60 ticket is a Scarborough - Whitby Off-Peak Return (SVR) Route: Any Permitted which is valid at any time (not break of journey on the outbound leg). The same ticket type, restriction code and routeing costs £32.20 from York.
Route: Not Via Darlington (very good value) is only available between the York cluster and stations in the North East such as Middlesbrough and Hartlepool or Esk Valley stations.
You say that but, for example, I travel from York to Sheffield there are three routes I could take, how does the smart card know which one I've taken to charge an appropriate fare for the journey?
It certainly isn't part of any of the operational ITSO schemes, but theoretically there could be on-board readers which verify for definite which routes/trains are used.
Doubt this would actually happen though.
I spotted that but as there is no Not Via Darlington ticket from Scarborough there is no choice of the lower fare despite using exactly the same route from York.
bb21 said:
Neither is there from York
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