London to Exeter

[starrymarkb]

It is not nonsense. A Plymouth/Penzance service is going to have to be pathed between Paddington and Reading regardless of route and it's not impossible to extend this through to Swindon where it would then run via Badminton. If and when Didcot power station closes there will be less freight. The line is also going to be resignalled with ETCS so there will be the opportunity for additional capacity here.

Why the Obsession with sending everything via Bristol. Firstly AFAIK there are going to be no line speed upgrades on the GWML in the immediate future. Secondly it's about 15-20 mins quicker via the B&H IME* - You'd need more than faster acceleration from Bristol (remember you said they'd non stop Reading to Bristol) to claw that back! Also bear in mind that faster acceleration would give a boost on the twisty B&H. It wouldn't give much benefit when sat at 125 on the GWML.

*This was based on the difference between the normal times and revised engineering times where services were routed Taunton->Bristol->Parkway->Reading Non Stop!

 

[Zoe]

The business case for electrifying the Berks and Hants west of Newbury would be weak as only one train per hour would benefit. I'm not sure the wires will ever reach Exeter via that route.

 

[D1009]

Frankly I find it totally ridiculous that people posting on this forum are proposing to DOWNGRADE ANY well used railway lines at a time that railways are seeing record growth in traffic.

 

[starrymarkb]

The business case for electrifying the Berks and Hants west of Newbury would be weak as only one train per hour would benefit. I'm not sure the wires will ever reach Exeter via that route.

But is the ECML north of Newcastle only one Electric per hour?

 

[Zoe]

But is the ECML north of Newcastle only one Electric per hour?

There wasn't really an alternative at the time as bi-mode was not available and not wiring would have resulted in all the Edinburgh HSTs running under the wires as far as Newcastle. Newbury isn't even quarter of the way to Plymouth. Times have now changed and even Cardiff to Swansea did not have the business case for electrification.

 

[Greenback]

Times have indeed changed, as electrification had been pretty much written off ten years ago.

There is, of course, a business case for Cardiff - Swansea wiring, but there are other, political factors at play.

 

[Bald Rick]

There wasn't really an alternative at the time as bi-mode was not available and not wiring would have resulted in all the Edinburgh HSTs running under the wires as far as Newcastle. Newbury isn't even quarter of the way to Plymouth. Times have now changed and even Cardiff to Swansea did not have the business case for electrification.

The original plan was only to wire to Newcastle, changing engines there. Very late decision by DfT to authorise wires to Edinburgh.

 

[Zoe]

There is, of course, a business case for Cardiff - Swansea wiring, but there are other, political factors at play.

That's not what Philip Hammond said.

I regret to say that there is not, at present, a viable business case for electrification of the main line between Cardiff and Swansea.

--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The original plan was only to wire to Newcastle, changing engines there. Very late decision by DfT to authorise wires to Edinburgh.

Loco changes would have added a time penalty though. With bi-mode available these days there is no time penalty.

 

[Greenback]

That's not what Philip Hammond said.

Gosh! Politician in 'not telling the whole truth' shock!

 

[Zoe]

Firstly AFAIK there are going to be no line speed upgrades on the GWML in the immediate future.

125 mph Bristol to Bridgwater has been proposed for CP5 with the possibility of further line speed improvements between Bridgwater and Plymouth although any improvements west of Cogload Junction will not reduce the time via Bristol compared to the Berks and Hants.

 

[MidnightFlyer]

The service is now a regular hourly pattern to Exeter and timekeeping is excellent considering the single track sections. Passenger number are very high and increasing

...

Why have we procured so much poor rolling stock not suited to the markets they serve (Voyager, 185 .... IEP!) since the 158/9? Believe me, Cross Country would be way better if it had 100mph class 159 type gangwayed stock that would have cost a lot less than Voyagers. You could have run half-hourly to Plymouth with 8 carriages north of Bristol and 4 south (8 at peaks), with similar splits elsewhere. EMT has another good example of this in practice with Norwich - Nottingham - Liverpool.

I believe that some EXD-WAT journey times have been extended since the hourly service was introduced by a good few minutes (I think 10-20 in some cases), in order to allow a standard pattern and waiting times.

As bad as Voyagers are seen to be, I'm sorry, but 158s / 159s are a long way off being worthy replacements - they are good regional units though, however I do think now that EMT's refurb may be better than SWT's.

 

[BigVince76]

..............usually Platform 7...............

Thanks. Does anyone know what the time the inbound service that forms the 1920 would arrive at Waterloo?

 

[Lrd]

Thanks. Does anyone know what the time the inbound service that forms the 1920 would arrive at Waterloo?

I believe it's 1845, there is an arrival at 1919 and a one minute turnaround is just a little bit too tight!

 

[Xavi]

I believe that some EXD-WAT journey times have been extended since the hourly service was introduced by a good few minutes (I think 10-20 in some cases), in order to allow a standard pattern and waiting times.

As bad as Voyagers are seen to be, I'm sorry, but 158s / 159s are a long way off being worthy replacements - they are good regional units though, however I do think now that EMT's refurb may be better than SWT's.

I was meaning the 158/9 bodyshell ( or at least the layout of it) but with engines, traction equipment, insulation etc that would have been 10-15 years more advanced. 100 mph would not have been a problem given all the slack in XC schedules.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Thanks. Does anyone know what the time the inbound service that forms the 1920 would arrive at Waterloo?

Correct. Use National Rail Enquiries On your mobile and the platform will often be shown long before the Waterloo screens.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Times have indeed changed, as electrification had been pretty much written off ten years ago.

There is, of course, a business case for Cardiff - Swansea wiring, but there are other, political factors at play.

Absolutely correct. You can make a business case for, or against, anything if you're a politician!
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

That's not what Philip Hammond said.


--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

Loco changes would have added a time penalty though. With bi-mode available these days there is no time penalty.

Note the point that joining and splitting of units at Salisbury takes less than 1 minute. With a locomotive purpose built for matching to a unit the 'time penalty' would be much lower than the 9 DfT minutes often quoted.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

The business case for electrifying the Berks and Hants west of Newbury would be weak as only one train per hour would benefit. I'm not sure the wires will ever reach Exeter via that route.

Everyone reading this thread would acknowledge that with renewal of stock (and preferably electrification), the B&H would go half-hourly, one fast and one semi-fast.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

I believe that some EXD-WAT journey times have been extended since the hourly service was introduced by a good few minutes (I think 10-20 in some cases), in order to allow a standard pattern and waiting times.

As bad as Voyagers are seen to be, I'm sorry, but 158s / 159s are a long way off being worthy replacements - they are good regional units though, however I do now that EMT's refurb may be better than SWT's.

The journey time differences to a few trains that were a bit quicker prior to Dec 2009 is a price worth paying, but it's all a result of the BAD singling in the 60s.

EMT refurb was same spec as SWT except they replaced the seats with the high-density ones used in FGW HSTs. As mentioned earlier a well designed seat if you have to get as many seats in as possible.

 

[Zoe]

Everyone reading this thread would acknowledge that with renewal of stock (and preferably electrification), the B&H would go half-hourly, one fast and one semi-fast.

I'm not sure there is demand for this, back in 2005 the SRA even proposed to cut back the existing semi-fast Berks and Hants service (introduced in December 2004) to Westbury due to lack of demand beyond Westbury. Even the current plan only has the regular hourly bi-mode IEP service running as far as Westbury, only some of these will continue through to Exeter/Paignton.

 

[Xavi]

I'm not sure there is demand for this, back in 2005 the SRA even proposed to cut back the existing semi-fast Berks and Hants service (introduced in December 2004) to Westbury due to lack of demand beyond Westbury. Even the current plan only has the regular hourly bi-mode IEP service running as far as Westbury, only some of these will continue through to Exeter/Paignton.

2005 and the SRA is a long time ago and demand for rail travel has soured by 45% across Devon, Dorset Cornwall and Somerset since then! There's only so much you can do with high-density seating etc. The B&H service is already half-hourly from 1600 - 1900ish with HSTs off Paddington and there is some suppressed demand from Devon and Somerset by the slower running of those services in other periods that serve the intermediate Taunton to Reading stations.

If somebody had said in 2004 that rail usage would increase by 45% over 7 or 8 years they'd have been laughed at, but it is happening and the economy needs rail (and other modes), so we shouldn't see government spending, or rather investment, in our rail infrastructure as a problem. Would we like the 'subsidy' to be lower? Yes. Should we seek to make it lower? Yes. Should we look to suppress the demand for rail travel and the economic value it brings? No.

 

[Oliver]

There is, of course, a business case for Cardiff - Swansea wiring, but there are other, political factors at play.

What are these "political factors" you refer to?

 

[daniel3982]

What are these "political factors" you refer to?

Trying to get the Welsh Assembly to pay for it I guess.

 

[Chris125]

What are these "political factors" you refer to?

Trying to prop up bi-mode IEP's - with Swansea unelectrified they can justify bi-modes hauling engines and fuel between Paddington and Cardiff, if the WAG get wiring through to Swansea the business case for the bi-modes and/or the DfT's credibility takes another hit.

Chris

 

[daniel3982]

Looks like SWT won't be as cheap between London and Exeter in future... The cheapest bookings from July 18th onwards have gone from £13 per journey to £22.50, near enough a 75% rise!

 

[aylesbury]

I dont know about one train an hour on B&H being a weak case what about the WCML with only two Pendo,s an hour thats not a good case.

 

[calc7]

I dont know about one train an hour on B&H being a weak case what about the WCML with only two Pendo,s an hour thats not a good case.

I assume you are meaning Weaver Junction to Carstairs Junction? The WCML carries a lot more premium InterCity traffic as well as freight. TransPennine Express also operate several (soon to be electric Class 350s) through Euxton Junction with one continuing per hour to Scotland.

 

[Greenback]

Trying to get the Welsh Assembly to pay for it I guess.

Yes, that's one of the factors!

I assume you are meaning Weaver Junction to Carstairs Junction? The WCML carries a lot more premium InterCity traffic as well as freight. TransPennine Express also operate several (soon to be electric Class 350s) through Euxton Junction with one continuing per hour to Scotland.

A comparison between the case for electrification of the WCML north from Weaver Junction and today's schemes would be interesting. One vital difference would be that freight seems to have bene considerably higher up the agenda than today.

I cna see why though. In the late 1960's and early 1970's there was a lot more freight by rail, and the railway was still keen to compete for long distance wagonloads through Speedlink services.

 

[Woody]

Looks like SWT won't be as cheap between London and Exeter in future... The cheapest bookings from July 18th onwards have gone from £13 per journey to £22.50, near enough a 75% rise!

First Great Western are also increasing their fares again from Devon and Cornwall this May.That will be 10% since September in two rises.ie Plymouth to Paddington super off peak currently £82 will be £85.50.

Other fares, both SSR and SVR from Devon and Cornwall destinations to London are also increasing.

 

[calc7]

First Great Western are also increasing their fares again from Devon and Cornwall this May.That will be 10% since September in two rises.ie Plymouth to Paddington super off peak currently £82 will be £85.50.

Other fares, both SSR and SVR from Devon and Cornwall destinations to London are also increasing.

Demand management or ransom-esque profiteering?

 

[Urban Gateline]

Looks like SWT won't be as cheap between London and Exeter in future... The cheapest bookings from July 18th onwards have gone from £13 per journey to £22.50, near enough a 75% rise!

So far only Advance fares up to 20th July are available, hence why you may be seeing higher prices in your searches, or of course it is possible that the 18th July's cheapest Advance tickets quota have been snapped up already hence the rise to a higher price.