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London to Huddersfield

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sven945

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In the past few weeks I've seen (as an RPO at Euston) a number of people with Any Permitted tickets from London to Huddersfield wanting to travel via Manchester. To me that sounds completely illogical, and that the best way would be travelling via King's Cross and changing at either Wakefield or Leeds.

I got one of my colleagues to check on the Avantix machine and there's a separate fare for London to Huddersfield Route Manchester, but the fares seem rather odd. A saver return on Any Permitted is 30p cheaper via Manchester, but the open tickets are all much more expensive via Manchester.

Looking at timings they're actually pretty similar (all around the 3 hours mark, give or take ten minutes), but the existence of a route Manchester ticket is confusing. Would an Any Permitted ticket be valid via Manchester? Or just on the East Coast? I tried to get my head around the route manual last night but it confused me entirely.

(Incidentally, I had one person wanting to go to Harrogate via Manchester, and another wanting to go to Newcastle via Manchester. I was right in saying that isn't allowed wasn't I? They're completely stupid routes to my mind, in that you spend just as much time going to Manchester as you would to go as far as Leeds/York, and you have to spend an extra hour going across the Pennines).
 
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clagmonster

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Huddersfield, using map conbination GM+MA, yes, they are valid via Manchester. In fact, the open route Manchester tickets are valid via the ECML also, as they are more expensive than the any permitted. I suspect the anomaly is either due to the Manchester route being a new addition to the routing guide, or that fares on each route have gone up by different amounts. In my opinion, especially since the acceleration of West Coast services, this is a perfectly reasonable route.
The only time a Newcastle ticket would be valid on the west coast is for sleaper services, so you did right to turn the passenger away.
Harrogate is not valid out of Euston at any time, so again, correct call.
Is it possible, that when these people turned up, that there was disruption on the ECML, as I agree, in both cases they do seem odd choices of route.
Your position does demonstrate though, that as many seamingly reasonable routes are invalid, yet some bizare ones are, that it is very difficult to know the correct answer in all cases. It must be similar with all the differing time restrictions.
 

metrocammel

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They're completely stupid routes to my mind, in that you spend just as much time going to Manchester as you would to go as far as Leeds/York, and you have to spend an extra hour going across the Pennines).

I haven't checked the RG, and I trust Clagmonsters post that it isn't valid. You cannot, however, rely on your own logic to decide whether a route is valid or not. The RG often has somewhat 'odd' routes, which are perfectly valid. For example, if you worked at Kings Cross, and used your current logic, I doubt you would accept an off-peak return ticket from London to Gretna, whereas it is valid- as it's the shortest route, when travelling via Leeds & Carlisle. Basically, as tempting as it may be, you cannot really use 'logic' when it comes to routeing, as sometimes the RG is illogical- thus you may penalise a passenger who is in the right!
 

yorkie

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I tried to get my head around the route manual last night but it confused me entirely.
The RG is confusing, but you can only deny passengers the right to travel on a permitted route if you are sure it is not a permitted route; you have to apply the RG rather than a 'logic guide'.

Passengers may not want the quickest route for a variety of reasons and they can travel on any permitted route, not just the quickest route.
 

glynn80

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I think the issue is here is how do staff checking tickets gain access to the routeing guide when out and about and not at an internet terminal. I don't believe Avantix Traveller has access to RJIS (although I'm sure if I'm wrong someone will correct me) and thus cannot check the validity of specific routes. There is a paper version although is it very practical checking multiple sets of maps to see if a certain route is valid, probably not!

Also for the example of London to Harrogate, anyone wishing to go via the West Coast can do so if they excess their ticket to a London to Huddersfield ticket. For an Anytime Return this is only £5.00 extra (half if only one portion). They can then use either route.
 
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yorkie

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Let's assume that the holder of a London-Harrogate has a SSR and that they want to go via Manchester to stay with relatives or something, you could allow them on the xx20 trains from Euston with an excess to a Milton Keynes-Harrogate. If they are doing this on the same day as their outward portion, then you could excess both portions of the ticket, the excess would be (£101 - £86) £15. They could then start their RTN journey immediately after 'completing' the OUT journey. Technically this is only valid on the xx20 trains that call at MKC.

If a passenger held a ticket to e.g. Leeds and wanted to use the WCML, you could excess them to somewhere like Gretna. e.g. say they held a KGX - LDS SSR costing £84.00 this could be excessed to a Gretna ticket for ((£92.40 - £84.00)/2) £4.20 for the RTN portion. Leeds is on a permitted route to Carlisle/Gretna/Glasgow by virtue of being the shortest route, although the WCML is the quickest.
 

sven945

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We're not really trained in routes, and I absolutely now accept that I was in the wrong with the Huddersfield tickets. The decision was made in conjunction with a train manager, having checked Avantix and seen that there was a route via Manchester with completely different prices. I'd not seen how horribly complicated the routing guides are!
 

glynn80

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We're not really trained in routes, and I absolutely now accept that I was in the wrong with the Huddersfield tickets. The decision was made in conjunction with a train manager, having checked Avantix and seen that there was a route via Manchester with completely different prices. I'd not seen how horribly complicated the routing guides are!

I don't see how a large company like Virgin can not train their guards in the routeing guide, especially since they are one of the most likely TOCs to have routeing guide issues.
 

metrocammel

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I don't see how a large company like Virgin can not train their guards in the routeing guide, especially since they are one of the most likely TOCs to have routeing guide issues.

I was thinking exactly the same thing.

It is in no way your fault Sven, but it seems you have just been 'trained in the basics' and expected by the management 'to make rules up as you go' regarding the validity of tickets. This is quite a serious issue, and should be addressed to your management, as someone in your position really should have knowledge of (or at least have access to) routing- which has Glynn has said, is rather important for a far-reaching TOC such as Virgin.
 
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