London to Leeds - no valid return tickets?

[357]

Hi all,

I'm looking to head to Leeds later this week, BRFares shows all return tickets are valid on EMR only: https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=KGX&dest=LDS&rlc=PRV

However, I couldn't find any EMR trains and looking at this forum it seems the London to Leeds EMR service is now withdrawn? Looking at RTT there are no EMR departures from Leeds at all.

So, how to go about getting a return ticket valid from Kings Cross? Would I need to get two singles looking at the above link, meaning it is more expensive than it should be.

Anyone have any ideas?

 

[Class800]

It's due to single leg pricing on LNER for that route - need two singles, or if cheaper a return to a destination valid via Leeds that isn't in the single leg pricing initiative

 

[Bletchleyite]

Hi all,

I'm looking to head to Leeds later this week, BRFares shows all return tickets are valid on EMR only: https://www.brfares.com/!fares?orig=KGX&dest=LDS&rlc=PRV

However, I couldn't find any EMR trains and looking at this forum it seems the London to Leeds EMR service is now withdrawn? Looking at RTT there are no EMR departures from Leeds at all.

So, how to go about getting a return ticket valid from Kings Cross? Would I need to get two singles looking at the above link, meaning it is more expensive than it should be.

Anyone have any ideas?

It doesn't mean it's more expensive than it should be unless you intended overnight break of journey. The singles are priced at 50% of the old returns on the trial routes.

 

[357]

It doesn't mean it's more expensive than it should be unless you intended overnight break of journey. The singles are priced at 50% of the old returns on the trial routes.

Looking at the link on BRFares, Super off peak single is £15.80 each way, whereas Super off peak return is £26.50.

 

[ainsworth74]

So, how to go about getting a return ticket valid from Kings Cross? Would I need to get two singles looking at the above link, meaning it is more expensive than it should be.

It's actually cheaper. Looking at Kings Cross to Burley Park (first station outside of Leeds heading towards Harrogate) to get an approximation of what the fares from London to Leeds would have been we can see that the Super Off-Peak Return is £126.60 whilst the Super Off-Peak Single is £125.70. The single leg pricing trial on Kings Cross - Leeds means that the single is now half the price of the return. You're not being charged any more for buying two singles than you would one return. The Anytime fares were already priced with a single at half the cost of a return so there is no real change there other than the removal of the return fare.

But in any event if you really do want a return fare rather than buying two singles I would just buy to Burley Park instead of Leeds.

Looking at the link on BRFares, Super off peak single is £15.80 each way, whereas Super off peak return is £26.50.

Yes, for the EMR Only fare. EMR are not part of the single leg pricing. See the example given above for what the actual prices were/are.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Looking at the link on BRFares, Super off peak single is £15.80 each way, whereas Super off peak return is £26.50.

The return is route EMR Only. If you can't make the journey wholly on EMR it might as well not exist (unless you wanted to use it to stop short, say at Sheffield, but you'll have trouble actually buying it online).

If there was an Any Permitted Super Off Peak Return it'd be £31.60 (priv), i.e. double the Any Permitted single.

 

[ainsworth74]

If there was an Any Permitted Super Off Peak Return it'd be £31.60 (priv), i.e. double the Any Permitted single.

Indeed so as can be seen by looking at fares to Burley Park or Cross Gates in order to get a flavour of what the fares to Leeds used to be priced like.

 

[357]

Thanks all, everything makes sense now! It was the EMR return fares being shown that confused me!

Looking into this further, I have found a station just outside London that offers a "Any Permitted Route" Super Off Peak return, that is slightly cheaper than two singles from Kings Cross, would this be valid on the Underground?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Thanks all, everything makes sense now! It was the EMR return fares being shown that confused me!

Looking into this further, I have found a station just outside London that offers a "Any Permitted Route" Super Off Peak return, that is slightly cheaper than two singles from Kings Cross, would this be valid on the Underground?

Is it route +LONDON or +ANY PERMITTED (or just +)? If so yes, if not no.

 

[357]

Is it route +LONDON or +ANY PERMITTED (or just +)? If so yes, if not no.

Yes, it has "✠ANY PERMITTED" next to it

 

[Watershed]

The Single Leg Pricing trial is advantageous if you want to make a one-way or triangular journey, of slight disadvantage if you want to make a return journey (as you won't be entitled to compensation based on the full cost of the return in the event of a 2+ hour delay), and of significant disadvantage if you want to travel at a time when the Off-Peak ticket is valid, but not the Super Off-Peak.

Fortunately, for the time being it's possible to avoid this issue by buying a ticket to/from literally any other station than Leeds/Newcastle/Edinburgh/London Terminals. But there is no guarantee that this won't be rolled out more widely, so that avoiding it is no longer possible.

Thanks all, everything makes sense now! It was the EMR return fares being shown that confused me!

Looking into this further, I have found a station just outside London that offers a "Any Permitted Route" Super Off Peak return, that is slightly cheaper than two singles from Kings Cross, would this be valid on the Underground?

It depends on what the station in question is. If the ticket has a Maltese cross (again, you can look this up on BR Fares) then validity on the Underground is definitely included.

 

[Snow1964]

It's due to single leg pricing on LNER for that route - need two singles, or if cheaper a return to a destination valid via Leeds that isn't in the single leg pricing initiative

I believe it is a new idea, good prices, unfortunately as you have discovered the delivery of it wasn’t very well thought through. So if you are making a return journey the customer interface (ticket selling websites) suggests no tickets available rather than offering two singles to fit your suggested travel dates and times.

I am all for ticket simplification, but need the cheapest tickets to be shown as available, not what could be seen as fully sold out as no tickets remaining available.

 

[30907]

So if you are making a return journey the customer interface (ticket selling websites) suggests no tickets available rather than offering two singles to fit your suggested travel dates and times.

Depends on the website, surely - LNER is no problem, for starters.

More of an issue is the lack of flexibility to choose a different route one way at the historic ANY PERMITTED price. Niche market, maybe, but >0.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Depends on the website, surely - LNER is no problem, for starters.

Literally none of them would, because Advances are only sold as singles (and have been for something like 20 years now) and so sites will always show singles-each-way options in order to show those.

More of an issue is the lack of flexibility to choose a different route one way at the historic ANY PERMITTED price. Niche market, maybe, but >0.

If it was rolled out nationally, you'd do that by taking a West Coast single one way and an East Coast single the other way. You don't need to buy walk up tickets in advance, and you don't need a ticket to make a reservation if that was the concern. Single fare pricing takes out most of this sort of concern because you're not disadvantaged financially for doing any "geometry" of journey. That's one key reason it's of so much benefit - for one, it pretty much wipes out the need for excesses in the vast majority of cases, you'd just refund and buy the relevant new ticket.

 

[py_megapixel]

The Single Leg Pricing trial is [...] of significant disadvantage if you want to travel at a time when the Off-Peak ticket is valid, but not the Super Off-Peak.

That's only because there happen not to be off peak singles on that route, surely? I don't think single leg pricing has much to do with that; you could have the same issue with returns if there were no off peak ones of those.

 

[Bletchleyite]

That's only because there happen not to be off peak singles on that route, surely? I don't think single leg pricing has much to do with that; you could have the same issue with returns if there were no off peak ones of those.

There's no real reason they couldn't have had three levels of singles. I suspect dropping the Off Peak was partly twofold - one, that two levels are slightly simpler, and an Anytime out and Super Off Peak back would cover most needs at the same price (roughly), but also because some Off Peak users would be pushed to Anytimes so making it closer to revenue neutral. You can always tweak a bit around that edge by way of offering Advances, while having walk-up singles at 50% of return means you can effectively combine an Advance with a walk-up - far more people know the exact train they will use on their outward than their return.

 

[Watershed]

That's only because there happen not to be off peak singles on that route, surely? I don't think single leg pricing has much to do with that; you could have the same issue with returns if there were no off peak ones of those.

"Happen not to be" is rather charitable!

It was an underhanded move used to force current Off-Peak users into buying Advances or Anytime tickets. I imagine this alone will generated a lot more revenue than the introduction of Single Leg Pricing could possibly have cost.

 

[Bletchleyite]

"Happen not to be" is rather charitable!

It was an underhanded move used to force current Off-Peak users into buying Advances or Anytime tickets. I imagine this alone will generated a lot more revenue than the introduction of Single Leg Pricing could possibly have cost.

I doubt that very much as the window differences are narrow. I suspect it will have helped make it closer to revenue neutral, though. You can't make an omelette without breaking eggs.

 

[Starmill]

A Cattal to London Super Off Peak Return costs slightly less than two Super Off Peak Singles between Leeds and London. You may use this to start and finish at Leeds if you wish.

 

[kieron]

I believe it is a new idea, good prices, unfortunately as you have discovered the delivery of it wasn’t very well thought through. So if you are making a return journey the customer interface (ticket selling websites) suggests no tickets available rather than offering two singles to fit your suggested travel dates and times.

Do you have a particular ticket selling web site in mind here? 357's post refers to brfares.com, which isn't one.

While brfares.com has many good qualities, the "simple mode" on it isn't all that simple to use.

 

[yorkie]

It doesn't mean it's more expensive than it should be unless you intended overnight break of journey. The singles are priced at 50% of the old returns on the trial routes.

Or if you wish to travel at Off Peak times.

The singles are only available as Super Off Peak and Anytime; the intention is that people who arrive into London around 10am and depart around 6pm should now be paying a lot more money. This is consistent with principles around removing choice and keeping things "simple" on the basis that people like to pay more to keep things simple.

People who don't want such "simple" fares and want to pay less can easily get round it by purchasing a ticket from nearby stations to London or from Leeds itself to somewhere like West Hampstead or various alternatives.

This is what "simple" ticketing looks like; it is designed to make us pay more.

Not to mention restrict us; the "simple" fares can only be used via Peterborough!

 

[miklcct]

Or if you wish to travel at Off Peak times.

The singles are only available as Super Off Peak and Anytime; the intention is that people who arrive into London around 10am and depart around 6pm should now be paying a lot more money. This is consistent with principles around removing choice and keeping things "simple" on the basis that people like to pay more to keep things simple.

People who don't want such "simple" fares and want to pay less can easily get round it by purchasing a ticket from nearby stations to London or from Leeds itself to somewhere like West Hampstead or various alternatives.

This is what "simple" ticketing looks like; it is designed to make us pay more.

Not to mention restrict us; the "simple" fares can only be used via Peterborough!

I still support this idea even if it means fare increase for some people if it is rolled out nationally.

I can use an Anytime single in combination with a Super Off-Peak single, whereas in the old system I would need to buy an Anytime return

I can buy a single to travel on the East Coast out and another single on the West Coast back, whereas in the current system I need to visit a ticket office to get an excess fare.

I can buy tickets leg by leg without planning ahead.

Most importantly, I can take advantage of cheap Advance ticket before attending events while having a flexibility in returning as soon as possible after it is completed by using an Super Off-Peak single as the return journey.

 

[andylikestrain]

Hi
does anyone know when the single leg pricing trial is ending?
many thanks

 

[JonathanH]

Hi
does anyone know when the single leg pricing trial is ending?
many thanks

...or being extended?

 

[Class800]

Just use Burley Park as a ticketing stand in for Leeds and do your journey as intended

 

[Watershed]

Hi
does anyone know when the single leg pricing trial is ending?
many thanks

I don't think it will ever be ending. I imagine that ticketing would sooner move to a single leg basis nationwide.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Don’t bank on it ending, once you get you head around it you’ll see the benefits.

 

[yorkie]

As long as all return tickets are halved in price, and no fares which would otherwise have been cheaper are abolished or increase in price, the benefits could be argued to outweigh the drawbacks, as debated in other threads:

LNER New Fares Trial

Our new fares trial on select routes will make it easier for customers to choose the ticket that best suits their needs for journeys from today. To find out more, visit: http://bit.ly/2sp9RY9 So, as expected the switch to even pricing for outbound and return removes the date flexibility on the...

www.railforums.co.uk

GWR Half price singles replacing Off-peak Returns

Not seen another thread on this so here goes, just seen that from the May fares change Off-peak Returns and Anytime Returns in the Bristol area, roughly bounded by Westbury/Chippenham/Weston-super-Mare/Ashchurch are being withdrawn, to be replaced by Off-peak and Anytime Day Singles at half the...

www.railforums.co.uk

Single Leg pricing for some journeys to/from King's Cross give passengers a better deal on fares

Not sure if I like the sound of getting rid of return tickets https://www.gov.uk/government/news/two-improvements-to-ensure-passengers-get-a-better-deal-on-rail-fares LNER will begin trials in January 2020 of a new fare system designed to make travelling on trains simpler and clearer. Return...

www.railforums.co.uk

But do bear in mind passengers travelling at Off Peak times between London & Leeds are paying more than they should, if they buy 2 x singles compared to a return to somewhere like West Hampstead, so this trial isn't good for everyone.

There is no reason why they could not have kept the current offering of Super Off Peak / Off Peak / Anytime and make them all singles.

I also doubt that off peak singles will be as cheap as half the cost of the return for journeys like Sheffield to Derby.

But it's all been done to death before and until we see actual proposals, we can only guess what the DfT have planned, but we all know the DfT has a poor track record in this area so it doesn't fill me with confidence.

 

[py_megapixel]

Hopefully they don't expand it until there's actually a national strategy to do so. There's no point in one TOC having single-leg pricing while the rest of the country is still on the old system of illogically priced singles and returns.

On the other hand, hopefully they get such a national strategy sorted as soon as possible!

 

[AdamWW]

Does this mean that refunding a "return" ticket made of two singles will now incur two admin fees? (£20 instead of £10)?