London to Newquay question

[RailwayDan]

I am travelling tomorrow from Paddington to Newquay

I hold a Super Off Peak Return (priced £68.00 with a YP discount)

My question is, given this ticket is barred from the 0730 from Paddington, is there any additional ticket that I can buy (say Paddington to X) that would allow me to use this train instead of the later departure of 1006.

Thanks.

 

[bb21]

A literal reading of the restriction text says "no", as your journey is from Paddington and the restrictions apply to trains "timed to depart" Paddington at certain times, regardless of where you board.

 

[yorkie]

I see your location is 'Trent Junction'. Had you bought a Super Off Peak Return ticket from a station near you (Long Eaton, EMD, etc) then you would only be restricted by the trains to/from St Pancras, with no restriction between Paddington & Newquay.

 

[bb21]

I see your location is 'Trent Junction'. Had you bought a Super Off Peak Return ticket from a station near you (Long Eaton, EMD, etc) then you would only be restricted by the trains to/from St Pancras, with no restriction between Paddington & Newquay.

??

Newquay is not in the Network area.

The price makes it clear that it is a ticket from London Terminals.

 

[yorkie]

??

Newquay is not in the Network area.

The price makes it clear that it is a ticket from London Terminals.

If the origin & destination are both outside the Network Area, and travel is via London, then it's origin to London (and London back to origin) which is restricted.

So Long Eaton - Newquay (+via London) is only restricted between Long Eaton & St Pancras.

The Network Area rule effectively reverses that if the origin is inside the Network Area.

So Bedford - Newquay is only restricted between Paddington & Newquay.

 

[bb21]

That's a new one to me.

It makes no sense to me. By that logic, a Newquay to Long Eaton ticket is only restricted between Newquay and London, completely the opposite to a ticket in the opposite direction. That's bonkers.

 

[yorkie]

Well, that's what's meant to be the case and is "one of the longest running agreements on the railway"

It may seem bonkers, but it would be even more bonkers to have virtually unusable tickets!


From the East Coast PTU March 2010:


Off-Peak Restrictions from beyond London
• This is one of the longest running agreements
on the railway but there are still some staff who
do not seem to be familiar with it. It has been
around for at least 25 years!!
• This is another reminder that Off-Peak and
Super Off-Peak fares (SVR & SSR)
commencing from outside the “Network area”
(e.g. Swindon, Bristol, Ipswich) can use East
Coast trains at any time as the SVR restriction
applies on the FGW/NXEA part of the journey
only, e.g. Swindon-London and return to
Swindon. (These are restriction codes 1A, 1Y,
5A and 5X).
• Conversely, when the outward portion is from the
ECML, the restriction then applies on the ECML
only, not on FGW/NXEA.
• If restrictions applied on both the Great
Western/NXEA part of the journey and the East
Coast Main Line, then many long distance
journeys would be quite impractical in one day.
This agreement exists to make those journeys
possible.
Please ensure all staff know

Unfortunately not all flows have the correct restriction codes.

Long Eaton to Newquay is correct.

However Newquay to Long Eaton is incorrect and is worded to allow travel at any time on the Newquay to London leg (which should be restricted) and restricted on the London to Long Eaton leg (which should not be restricted).

I suspect not all pricing managers are aware of this long-standing agreement.

Some pricing managers are rather more knowledgeable than others. Some you wonder how on earth they're in that job!

 

[SickyNicky]

I must admit to not knowing this rule as well...

Interestingly, the +VIA LONDON SSR takes restriction CJ from Newquay to Long Eaton, which only restricts between London and Long Eaton and NOT on the leg into London.

So booking engines are unlikely to offer these tickets at restricted times.

Edit: Yorkie beat me to the restriction code example above

 

[bb21]

I don't buy this argument about the journey being impractical in one day had both the leg into and out of London be restricted. If the leg into London is restricted, that would bar the morning trains anyway. Should this make it impossible to use a service out of London to the destination station before the afternoon peak (I expect the restriction out of London to be aligned with a ticket from London Terminals), I would expect the first unrestricted service out of London to be a reasonable option. I doubt that there are that many destinations which have no journey opportunities from London after the afternoon peak, possibly the far end of Scotland. The restrictions from London usually reflect the fact that some destinations take longer to get to, hence some relaxations in terms of the end of the restricted period.

It is a strange arrangement to say the least, to me anyway, but if it exists then all the better.

Another problem is that there is no documentation that can be shown should there be a dispute. If indeed some pricing managers are unaware of this arrangement, the passenger may be on a hiding to nowhere.

I can see some juicy anomalies as well, meanwhile.

 

[Haywain]

Whilst EMT may not have got it quite right with the Long Eaton ticket, the principle has been met in that travel is only restricted into/out of one of the London Terminals.

I doubt that there are that many destinations which have no journey opportunities from London after the afternoon peak, possibly the far end of Scotland.

There are destinations as close to London as south Lincolnshire that do not have connections after the evening peak, so it is very relevant not to have a doubling up of restrictions.

 

[bb21]

Hmm, Lincolnshire does seem to be very poorly served. I guess it probably does make sense after all for selected destinations.

So is there anything in the public domain that a passenger can rely on? It seems a very poorly advertised rule, more so than other ones.

Can't say I am not happy to hear this.

 

[Starmill]

There are destinations as close to London as south Lincolnshire that do not have connections after the evening peak, so it is very relevant not to have a doubling up of restrictions.

Yeah... and West Wales, North + East Yorkshire, Greater Manchester, Cumbria.... erm...

 

[Haywain]

So is there anything in the public domain that a passenger can rely on? It seems a very poorly advertised rule, more so than other ones.

It's not a rule, it's an agreement and the public can rely on the "advertised" restrictions for the specific ticket. As with many other restrictions, staff have been known to incorrectly apply the wording of the restriction which is why reminders are sent out from time to time, as per Yorkie's post above. In my experience, journey planners correctly apply the restrictions. Usually.

 

[ASharpe]

If using a Super Off-Peak ticket with no restriction out of London, could you break your journey overnight in London and resume the next morning?
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---
In response to myself:

NRE and the Cross country website say yes and offer reservations.

 

[yorkie]

If there's no restrictions on any given leg, then there are indeed no restrictions on that leg.

Break of journey is always allowed on the return portion (without limit, providing you're within the validity period of the ticket).

 

[bb21]

It's not a rule, it's an agreement and the public can rely on the "advertised" restrictions for the specific ticket. As with many other restrictions, staff have been known to incorrectly apply the wording of the restriction which is why reminders are sent out from time to time, as per Yorkie's post above. In my experience, journey planners correctly apply the restrictions. Usually.

I see. That makes more sense. I would have expected that journeys are not possible in certain respects be catered for in the restriction texts, thus eliminating the need for a separate rule overwriting restriction texts.

 

[yorkie]

I see. That makes more sense. I would have expected that journeys are not possible in certain respects be catered for in the restriction texts, thus eliminating the need for a separate rule overwriting restriction texts.

If you said that all such tickets have two sets of restrictions unless the journeys are not possible after the evening peak, you'd have to review the timetable and restriction texts regularly. You'd also have people buying tickets to places just beyond the last trains (e.g. the stop after Tain, or the stop after Inverness, or the stop after Edinburgh, or the stop after York, and so on....) which in many cases would cost zero, to get an unrestricted ticket.

Yes there will always be anomalies but that would create even more, as well as making passengers journeys very difficult to plan eg. you can't get to PAD 'til 1200 but then you must leave KGX by 1400 or you have a long wait etc...

 

[John @ home]

So is there anything in the public domain that a passenger can rely on? It seems a very poorly advertised rule

It's not a rule, it's an agreement and the public can rely on the "advertised" restrictions for the specific ticket.

In 1999, the rule applied to journeys starting in the Network Area only.

Page E6: Saver tickets for journeys commencing in the Network Area for travel via London are valid by any train to London to connect with trains from London on which they may be used.

Page E21: SuperSaver tickets for journeys commencing in the Network Area for travel via London are valid by any train to London to connect with trains from London on which they may be used.

By the following year, additional paragraphs had been added which applied to journeys starting outside the Network Area, perhaps to deal with the very long journey issue mentioned above.

Page E6: Saver tickets for journeys commencing within the Network Area for travel via London are valid by any train to London to connect with trains from London on which they may be used.

Saver tickets for journeys commencing outside the Network Area for travel via London take the restrictions from the origin station to London and return. Unless shown otherwise on the following pages, they are unrestricted between London and the destination station and return.

(Similar wording for SuperSaver tickets on page E21.)

Similar words were used until the final National Fares Manual to be placed in the public domain, NFM 99 (May-Sep 2008). By this time, the words "on which they may be used" and "on the following pages" had been deleted. Section E of NFM 99 is attached.

It seems that it was intended that the rule should be incorporated in ticket validity codes at the time of "Fares Simplification". To a large extent, that has been done. For example, a £159 SSR Leeds - Bristol Temple M route ✠ Any Permitted is restricted between Leeds and London, but not between London and Bristol, while a £159 SSR Bristol Temple M - Leeds route ✠ Any Permitted is restricted between Bristol and London, but not between London and Leeds.

Examples such as the £154.10 SSR Newquay - Long Eaton route ✠ Via London above suggest that implementation remains incomplete.

 

[bb21]

If you said that all such tickets have two sets of restrictions unless the journeys are not possible after the evening peak, you'd have to review the timetable and restriction texts regularly. You'd also have people buying tickets to places just beyond the last trains (e.g. the stop after Tain, or the stop after Inverness, or the stop after Edinburgh, or the stop after York, and so on....) which in many cases would cost zero, to get an unrestricted ticket.

Yes, that could be an issue, but most service patterns would not change that regularly anyway, but that is a moot point since this is not how it works.

Yes there will always be anomalies but that would create even more, as well as making passengers journeys very difficult to plan eg. you can't get to PAD 'til 1200 but then you must leave KGX by 1400 or you have a long wait etc...

Looking at a selection examples, I think this was reasonably well implemented. Of course somewhere along the implementation process, the message got lost as the Long Eaton example shows.

The Network Area rule is well documented, however there is no public documentation about this alleged arrangement apart from the restriction texts, assuming it was correctly implemented. So I do wonder what the passengers can fall back on in cases of dispute. I hope this situation never arises.

 

[yorkie]

I think that the restriction text, which is publicly visible (though not particularly accessible) applies, however in cases where the pricing manager has worded it incorrectly, I'd suggest contacting the relevant TOC to get it amended.

Someone who travels from Newquay to Long Eaton may actually prefer the wording to be how it is, rather than changed to how it should be, though!

 

[jkdd77]

Online journey planners seem to be very confused as to the validity of this ticket, although I don't believe that a journey planner may invalidate an otherwise valid ticket.

The notes to this restriction code state: http://www.nationalrail.co.uk/times_fares/ticket_types/63022.aspx

Journeys from London Paddington please use restrictions 5R, YN, YP, YQ, YU, YW, YX & XC.

I guess that this is intended to cover journeys from London Paddington via Reading, Coventry and Nuneaton to the likes of Derby, not to the original Newquay- London journey (albeit that this particular ticket would not be valid via that route anyway).

How is a passenger supposed to know which of the above eight restriction codes to look up anyway?

 

[MichaelAMW]

I think this is an EMT stitch up and that they have changed the validity codes inappropriately so that they always apply to their bit. E.g. for off-peak returns, Exeter to Nottingham is 9J, which is also used for London to Nottingham, and Nottingham to Exeter is 7E, which is used for Nottingham to London. Trouble is that when you check, say, Exeter to Nottingham you are indeed prevented from booking on trains that are not permitted for Exeter - London OR London - Nottingham. Tickets from the western region, as it were, to the Midland mainline seem to have EMT codes in both directions. On the other hand, e.g. Exeter to Retford does what the supposed rule says, with code LC, the same as Exeter to Paddington, and no evening restrictions out of Kings Cross.

I find it very interesting and suspicious that EMT appear to set the fares for all MML to western region tickets, regardless of the proportions of travel involved. For example, Penzance to Wellingborough is set by EMT but they only provide 65 miles of the overall distance of 370 miles for that journey. They have essentially cancelled the provision for the "from London" part to be unrestricted, while to "to London" part still seems to have restrictions as well, even though these are not actually in the restriction code. Even worse, the through off-peak return is 208.30, while Penzance - Padd is 131.00 and St Pancras to Wellingborough is 63.00, so there's even a 16.30 surcharge for a through ticket...

As I mentioned sometime in the past, I was once detained by the BTP, who arrived at the request of an RPI, when heading into London during the morning peak on a return half of a saver return from somewhere down west. At the time, the ticket had a western region code; now it has an EMT one. Even then, the RPI refused to even check the rule, let alone did she have any idea of its existence. It's an example of a failure to appreciate something that is often pointed out here, that restrictions apply to tickets but not to trains.