London to Norwich - 90 min timings

[dk1]

Another cracking run for 9P91 today.

 

[Dave1987]

Ok then just give Norwich a 130 minute service to suit the moaners down south. That’s a great idea!

I think you need to take a couple of things into consideration before going of on one. The main revenue for the whole franchise comes from the Essex area stations. Chelmsford in particular is a very busy, very well used station. The more minutes you put into the journey of people traveling from Chelmsford the more likely they are to decide that driving is more convenient to them. I know several people who decided to drive to Westfield at the weekends while the engineering works were on. They found it was actually quite convenient to drive there rather than take the train. It going to take a lot to persuade them to convert back to going by train again. If you make the journey to key stations like Chelmsford too long just to squeeze through an express to Norwich you may find a lot of passengers simply ditch the trains and drive. Then your main revenue earner is gone. It’s a very fine balance between appeasing the Norwich MPs ambitions but also not making Essex passengers journeys so long they simply ditch using the train service.

 

[eastdyke]

Seems that issues (signalling??) in the Manningtree area are impacting the progress of everything including 9P90 which has just passed around 9L.
More delayed trains in front.

 

[Alfie1014]

Aw poor you adding a few minutes on to your already short journey.

Sadly it's not just a couple of minutes it's up to 9 (on the new 18:35 ex LST) and 7 on the new 18:19, making the evening peak hour journey times to Clacton and Walton the slowest since steam finished in 1962; bring back the Britannias!

Don't get me wrong I'm all for faster journeys but as others have said it's about balance. In another forum the changes have been dubbed "changes for the few not the many!" Time will tell just how many additional passengers the additional Norwich service generate, but I doubt it will be more than a few hundred compared to 10+ times as many faced with longer journey times home, as others have also said its the EMU services that generate the bread and butter revenue, especially when fares are discounted heavily on the Norwich services and they're not on in the main on the EMU services.

As well as journey times its also about providing capacity and in some ways the EMU services have to act almost as a conveyor belt to move passengers out of Liverpool Street and Stratford to avoid overcrowding, the previous timetable had semi-fast EMU ervices to Colchester and beyond at roughly 10 minute intervals between 17:00 and 18:00 (not least as no hauled services call at Colchester between the 16:30 and 17:50 departures). The intervals ease out to roughly every 15 mins after 18:00 as the Norwich's then start calling again. With the moving of the 17:18 Ipswich to 17:12 (only 3 mins behind the 17:09 Clacton), ther's now a gap of 20 mins until the 17:32 Clacton. Now six minutes might not seem much but in the high peak 5000+ passengers can arrive at Liv St in that time and even if only 10% want the main line EMU services that can be 500 pax trying to get on an already full 12 car train. Cue lots of angry punters on Twitter complaining about how their journeys home have been disrupted.

The Franchise Agreement promises shorter journey times for all, so come the new trains all users will be looking for benefits.

Lastly GA's comms for this (other than Nin90) has been poor, no advance advice and the hard pressed social media staff simply parroting "It's May the timetables always change then!" Well they can but there hasn't been such a significant peak change on the GEML for 10+ years or so?

 

[Owen]

Anyone notice the people complaining don’t live in Norfolk?

 

[Grumbler]

I think you need to take a couple of things into consideration before going of on one. The main revenue for the whole franchise comes from the Essex area stations. Chelmsford in particular is a very busy, very well used station. The more minutes you put into the journey of people traveling from Chelmsford the more likely they are to decide that driving is more convenient to them. I know several people who decided to drive to Westfield at the weekends while the engineering works were on. They found it was actually quite convenient to drive there rather than take the train. It going to take a lot to persuade them to convert back to going by train again. If you make the journey to key stations like Chelmsford too long just to squeeze through an express to Norwich you may find a lot of passengers simply ditch the trains and drive. Then your main revenue earner is gone. It’s a very fine balance between appeasing the Norwich MPs ambitions but also not making Essex passengers journeys so long they simply ditch using the train service.

Before electrification, the servics running non-stop between Ipswich and Norwich were poorly loaded over this stretch. Since electrification, stops at Diss and sometimes Stowmarket have improved the loadings. Regarding Chelmsford, I have at times found it useful for Norwich services to call there obviating the need to change at Colchester.

 

[ashkeba]

Anyone notice the people complaining don’t live in Norfolk?

Plenty of those in West Norfolk are now complaining that Norwich has a faster London service than they do despite them being closer and having a section on the faster ECML. King's Lynn peak journey times ballooned out to 115mins typical (was 95-100) in the Thameslink timetable debacle.

Yet Chloe Smith and co are focusing on a half-hour service over here instead of restoring journey times. It's as stupid as their over-budget roads policies that focus on acres of tarmac instead of fixing bottleneck junctions.

 

[eastdyke]

Seems that issues (signalling??) in the Manningtree area are impacting the progress of everything including 9P90 which has just passed around 9L.
More delayed trains in front.

Around 21L at Ipswich where put ahead of the 'preceding' Norwich.
Around 22L on arrival into Norwich
Two other services from London (fairly) closely following.
It's going to be cosy on the Swing Bridge again!

 

[Owen]

Plenty of those in West Norfolk are now complaining that Norwich has a faster London service than they do despite them being closer and having a section on the faster ECML. King's Lynn peak journey times ballooned out to 115mins typical (was 95-100) in the Thameslink timetable debacle.

Yet Chloe Smith and co are focusing on a half-hour service over here instead of restoring journey times. It's as stupid as their over-budget roads policies that focus on acres of tarmac instead of fixing bottleneck junctions.

They’re only 18 miles closer and the service GN offers is a stopper.

It’s not our fault that GN won’t offer a nonstop service to kings lynn

 

[ashkeba]

They’re only 18 miles closer and the service GN offers is a stopper.

It’s not our fault that GN won’t offer a nonstop service to kings lynn

That's not the problem. It used to run nonstop south of Cambridge and do it in 95. The MP leading the push for the NINnies on the GEML but half-hourly fen line (which will probably carry mostly fresh air off-peak) instead of restoring the peak Cambridge Cruisers is your fault, though.

 

[Owen]

So you’re proposing they miss out Ely?

 

[Trainfan344]

Today's 0900 run made it to Liverpool Street on time but the return 11:00 run appears to have been delayed in the Manningtree area

 

[ashkeba]

So you’re proposing they miss out Ely?

No, only the stops south of Cambridge, especially now they've also got the Thameslinks (which we're not getting, contrary to early proposals) as well as other Cambridge stoppers and semis.

But mainly I'm expressing consternation that the MPs are willing to push so hard for removing stops from Norwich services while seeming to do little about the added stops slowing services to other parts of Norfolk.

 

[Owen]

Kings Lynn isn't in the Norwich constituency though? So why would MP's there be concerned about that? It's also a town of 40,000..

 

[AM9]

Kings Lynn isn't in the Norwich constituency though? So why would MP's there be concerned about that? It's also a town of 40,000..

Maybe the Essex MPs should insist that their services are improved, maybe stopping the Norwich trains at Colchester and not looping services that might provide connections into them there.
For the record, I do not live in Essex (or anywhere on the GEML) and I am not a commuter.

 

[eastdyke]

Maybe the Essex MPs should insist that their services are improved, maybe stopping the Norwich trains at Colchester and not looping services that might provide connections into them there.
For the record, I do not live in Essex (or anywhere on the GEML) and I am not a commuter.

When they (Essex MPs) supported Ni90 they thought that their constituents would also benefit.
They will of course benefit from the new trains (even though some posters think that the new trains do not constitute a benefit).
First and foremost the GEML, along with its outer suburban services, needs to be operated as a Right Time Railway. The current dabbling with Ni90 doesn't yet help to do that but I remain optimistic for (minor) journey time improvements for all in due course.

 

[Owen]

Could a stop in Colchester alongside Ipswich work?

 

[ashkeba]

Kings Lynn isn't in the Norwich constituency though? So why would MP's there be concerned about that? It's also a town of 40,000..

I don't know but she's sticking her oar in (see post 238).

And it's 55,000 - the town overflowed its formal boundary in the 1960s but the border never changed - plus another 10,000 in Downham and 3,000 in Watlington. Small beer maybe but they only want their 95 minite service back and you did ask if there's Norfolk unhappiness at the Ninnies.

 

[Bishopstone]

If I were Chloe Smith MP, I would be quite chuffed that - according to this forum - I had single-handedly transformed the railway timetable on the main line serving my constituency.

The usual armchair rant is that MPs are lazy, overpaid, and achieve little or nothing for their constituents. Until they campaign and effect some changes, whereupon - apparently - they are meddling in matters beyond their competence, best left to experts: male experts, obviously.

Norwich in 90 will probably bed-down, imperfectly, and then - three or four years on - there will be a proposal to add station calls which extend the journey time back towards 100 minutes. Whereupon, the consensus on here will be that this represents a misguided attack upon a beloved crack express, and will do irreparable harm to the East Anglian economy.

 

[Adrian1980uk]

Maybe in 5 or 10 years there'll be a campaign for Norwich in 80... not that its doable but doesn't stop the campaign

 

[dk1]

Could a stop in Colchester alongside Ipswich work?

Not yet. Remember that under Anglia Railways the xx00 did just that in 100min every hour. Stadlers may allow this but during the peak & shoulder peak you don't really want to encourage the hoards commuting to Colchester onto Ipswich/Norwich IC services. I remember that under AR neither the 1700, 1730, 1800, 1827 or 1900 ex-Liv St called there & where fast to either Manningtree or Ipswich. There where alternative Harwich PQ or Norwich IC services serving Colchester at 1727 & 1830.

 

[dk1]

Oh & the 1842 Norwich was added later calling Chelmsford & Colchester. This was basically a revenue raider.

 

[dk1]

1P56 1830 down had a cracking run tonight keeping well out of the way but 9P92 appears to have had a tardy station call at Ipswich. There was an irritating trespass incident at Swainsthorpe (around 5 miles from Norwich) but thankfully appears all good again. Looks like doing it in around 93 so it's getting better by the day on the late run.

 

[86246]

1P56 1830 down had a cracking run tonight keeping well out of the way but 9P92 appears to have had a tardy station call at Ipswich. There was an irritating trespass incident at Swainsthorpe (around 5 miles from Norwich) but thankfully appears all good again. Looks like doing it in around 93 so it's getting better by the day on the late run.

Does the use of platform 4 at Ipswich slow it down a bit on the approach ?

 

[eastdyke]

1P56 1830 down had a cracking run tonight keeping well out of the way but 9P92 appears to have had a tardy station call at Ipswich. There was an irritating trespass incident at Swainsthorpe (around 5 miles from Norwich) but thankfully appears all good again. Looks like doing it in around 93 so it's getting better by the day on the late run.

As you say a cracking run, appears to have been undone at Ipswich by a combination of the preceding stopper/terminator (which was early!) having to use P3. 9P92 was checked and then put in P4. Left 2L, maintained 2L into Norwich.
Getting there!

 

[dk1]

Does the use of platform 4 at Ipswich slow it down a bit on the approach ?

Oh yes. Have to expect a red at the tunnel mouth & relying on banner repeater. Then it's 20 rather than 30 into 4 then 25 leaving until clear of the points rather than a 'thrash'

 

[dk1]

As you say a cracking run, appears to have been undone at Ipswich by a combination of the preceding stopper/terminator (which was early!) having to use P3. 9P92 was checked and then put in P4. Left 2L, maintained 2L into Norwich.
Getting there!

So annoying. I'd be cursing & punching the desk haha.

 

[Nick Nation]

I'm surprised the novelty hasn't worn off for me yet, but todays scores are 88. 112, 90 and 92. Again, early departures of a minute or two, but that's another matter. The second run was delayed by signal failure around Manningtree, and I note that they decided to loop the already late running preceding train again, awkwardly on the Up beyond Ipswich.

 

[Class 170101]

The Class 90 Electric Loco Group has updated their understanding of the Norwich-Liverpool Street 'Class 90' diagrams.
The update from yesterday indicates a few uncertainties, some on here will know the missing details.
http://www.class90electriclocogroup.co.uk/Greater Anglia Weekday diagrams MAY 2019 v,2.pdf
I am sure that the new 'temporary' (pending units) diagram has already been posted on the forum but I repeat it here:

The 06:25 from London should form the Norwich in 90 train according to RTT. 9P92 retires to depot as 5P56. The 22:00 from Norwich is formed off 1P60 in Platform 1 if RTT is correct.

The Class 321s come from Colchester as 5P23 and return there later off the 16:30 from London and then disappear to Norwich TC. Looks like they go back to Colchester as 5F24, again according to RTT.

The Anglian steps up to do the 19:00/21:30 circuit by the looks of it.

 

[dk1]

The 06:25 from London should form the Norwich in 90 train according to RTT. 9P92 retires to depot as 5P56. The 22:00 from Norwich is formed off 1P60 in Platform 1 if RTT is correct.

The Class 321s come from Colchester as 5P23 and return there later off the 16:30 from London and then disappear to Norwich TC. Looks like they go back to Colchester as 5F24, again according to RTT.

The Anglian steps up to do the 19:00/21:30 circuit by the looks of it.

There is an ECS formed of 321 stock around 20:40 from the Centre Road now. The 22:00 has to be IC stock as it's worked by a Norwich driver as far as Colchester where I presume the Liv St driver who took the bins now relieves him/her.