London to Nottingham - more ways to make services to the area?

[HST43257]

So currently there is 1 fast tph and 1 slow 1tph from London to Nottingham, both via the Midland Main Line. I know covid has slowed it down a bit, but eventually passenger numbers will rise quite high again, potentially to the point of the 2 services consistently being full. So more services and more coaches would be required, yes? Some of my ideas are set out below:

The addition of 2tph Thameslink (but not ironing board seats) stopping everywhere between Bedford and Leicester, after running very limited stop from Central London. This would enable 2tph fast to Nottingham via the MML. I’d stop one at the points it currently stops at (Market Harborough, Leicester and East Mids Parkway) and the other at the points it currently stops at except for most of those between London and Leicester so the calling points would be Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, Beeston and Nottingham.

Alternatively, these Thameslink services could run all the way through to Nottingham, further lay calling at Loughborough, East Mids Parkway and Beeston. This would almost be a direct replica of the current London to Nottingham slow, except it calls at 1 more place north of London and it comes from Brighton. It would also mean the fasts could call at Kettering (1tph), Market Harborough (1tph), Leicester (2tph), Beeston (2tph) and Nottingham (2tph). East Mids Parkway would retain 2tph fast to London by making the Sheffield to London fast service also call there, as well as the semi fast.

If the amount of people on these services is still rising at a level too high (or if the MML was too full to accommodate the paths required for my idea), I’d also suggest a 2tph service from London Kings Cross to Nottingham via the ECML, with 1tph calling at St Neots & Peterborough and the other tph calling at Grantham and Bingham.

The ideas are far fetched and unrealistic, I know. However, it is a speculative thread so if there was any way some possibility that this could happen over the next 50 years, then I’d be glad to hear peoples thoughts.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

So currently there is 1 fast tph and 1 slow 1tph from London to Nottingham, both via the Midland Main Line. I know covid has slowed it down a bit, but eventually passenger numbers will rise quite high again, potentially to the point of the 2 services consistently being full. So more services and more coaches would be required, yes? Some of my ideas are set out below:

The addition of 2tph Thameslink (but not ironing board seats) stopping everywhere between Bedford and Leicester, after running very limited stop from Central London. This would enable 2tph fast to Nottingham via the MML. I’d stop one at the points it currently stops at (Market Harborough, Leicester and East Mids Parkway) and the other at the points it currently stops at except for most of those between London and Leicester so the calling points would be Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, Beeston and Nottingham.

Alternatively, these Thameslink services could run all the way through to Nottingham, further lay calling at Loughborough, East Mids Parkway and Beeston. This would almost be a direct replica of the current London to Nottingham slow, except it calls at 1 more place north of London and it comes from Brighton. It would also mean the fasts could call at Kettering (1tph), Market Harborough (1tph), Leicester (2tph), Beeston (2tph) and Nottingham (2tph). East Mids Parkway would retain 2tph fast to London by making the Sheffield to London fast service also call there, as well as the semi fast.

If the amount of people on these services is still rising at a level too high (or if the MML was too full to accommodate the paths required for my idea), I’d also suggest a 2tph service from London Kings Cross to Nottingham via the ECML, with 1tph calling at St Neots & Peterborough and the other tph calling at Grantham and Bingham.

The ideas are far fetched and unrealistic, I know. However, it is a speculative thread so if there was any way some possibility that this could happen over the next 50 years, then I’d be glad to hear peoples thoughts.

Thameslink to Nottingham and Leicester? Um no, just no.

 

[Purple Orange]

Thameslink to Nottingham and Leicester? Um no, just no.

Why not? It’s always better to give reason behind a yes or no answer.

 

[Domh245]

Why not? It’s always better to give reason behind a yes or no answer.

Apart from the lack of stock, the inappropriateness of running stock designed around the 20 minute cross london trip over 90 minutes and 100 miles up the country is a big factor. People complain already about running the trains to Brighton & Bedford, any further than that is going to be unacceptable to the wider public

Also worth noting that the idea in the OP of about a semi-fast from London to Leicester calling at all stops north of bedford is pretty much what the EMR electrics service is, bar running to Corby. This along with the rest of the recast gives Nottingham 1 fast and 1 semi-fast service that stops at Kettering to enable through journeys from the northern end of the network to Wellingborough and the like

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Nottingham is very far away Thameslink is designed for Commuter services and for short routes stopping at vast majority of stations not for long distance passengers travelling into London

 

[edwin_m]

Why not? It’s always better to give reason behind a yes or no answer.

Thameslink is designed to carry passengers at a high density for relatively short journeys, and has to be like that to achieve the necessary short dwell times in the core stations. It's just not suitable for journeys of close to 2hr. I agree there are some journeys of that length possible on Thameslink, but these are primarily for intermediate journeys and for the loner ones there is always an alternative by changing onto a more comfortable train for part of the journey. For a journey such as London-Nottingham that alternative would be the train that provides the service already!

 

[Purple Orange]

Thameslink is designed to carry passengers at a high density for relatively short journeys, and has to be like that to achieve the necessary short dwell times in the core stations. It's just not suitable for journeys of close to 2hr. I agree there are some journeys of that length possible on Thameslink, but these are primarily for intermediate journeys and for the loner ones there is always an alternative by changing onto a more comfortable train for part of the journey. For a journey such as London-Nottingham that alternative would be the train that provides the service already!

But then we have Bedford to Brighton and it goes all the way to Peterborough.

 

[Railwaysceptic]

To run Thameslink trains to Nottingham, it will be necessary to install OLE. If we do that, what's to prevent the East Midlands franchise holder running their own electric trains between St. Pancras and Nottingham? Why does Thameslink have to become involved?

 

[edwin_m]

But then we have Bedford to Brighton and it goes all the way to Peterborough.

Which I've already addressed in the post you quoted.

 

[43096]

Why not? It’s always better to give reason behind a yes or no answer.

Why does Nottingham need 4 trains per hour to London? It doesn't.

 

[hexagon789]

So currently there is 1 fast tph and 1 slow 1tph from London to Nottingham, both via the Midland Main Line. I know covid has slowed it down a bit, but eventually passenger numbers will rise quite high again, potentially to the point of the 2 services consistently being full. So more services and more coaches would be required, yes? Some of my ideas are set out below:

The addition of 2tph Thameslink (but not ironing board seats) stopping everywhere between Bedford and Leicester, after running very limited stop from Central London. This would enable 2tph fast to Nottingham via the MML. I’d stop one at the points it currently stops at (Market Harborough, Leicester and East Mids Parkway) and the other at the points it currently stops at except for most of those between London and Leicester so the calling points would be Kettering, Leicester, Loughborough, Beeston and Nottingham.

Alternatively, these Thameslink services could run all the way through to Nottingham, further lay calling at Loughborough, East Mids Parkway and Beeston. This would almost be a direct replica of the current London to Nottingham slow, except it calls at 1 more place north of London and it comes from Brighton. It would also mean the fasts could call at Kettering (1tph), Market Harborough (1tph), Leicester (2tph), Beeston (2tph) and Nottingham (2tph). East Mids Parkway would retain 2tph fast to London by making the Sheffield to London fast service also call there, as well as the semi fast.

If the amount of people on these services is still rising at a level too high (or if the MML was too full to accommodate the paths required for my idea), I’d also suggest a 2tph service from London Kings Cross to Nottingham via the ECML, with 1tph calling at St Neots & Peterborough and the other tph calling at Grantham and Bingham.

The ideas are far fetched and unrealistic, I know. However, it is a speculative thread so if there was any way some possibility that this could happen over the next 50 years, then I’d be glad to hear peoples thoughts.

If more capacity is actually needed in the future then to me the simplest method would seem to be by running 9-car trains on the existing fast and semi-fasts from St Pancras instead of 4/5/7/8-car mixes or 5/10-car 810s when they enter traffic. You would then have 18 cars every hour of capacity. Surely that would suffice?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Or just wait, and run an hourly Nottingham from Kings Cross as is likely to come after HS2. The current service is actually quite acceptable.

The only positive improvement to the current would be a better connection off a Sheffield fast onto the stopper to Nottingham so as to technically create another journey opportunity every hour.

 

[Bald Rick]

Longer trains, with the slower service dropping the calls south of Kettering as an electrified and expanded Corby service picks them up.

I wish someone had though5 if that.

 

[edwin_m]

Or just wait, and run an hourly Nottingham from Kings Cross as is likely to come after HS2. The current service is actually quite acceptable.

Completely pointless to run another Nottingham-London service that doesn't link anywhere new other than possibly Stevenage, when Toton provides extra Nottingham-London capacity anyway. The existing Nottingham-London service would have to continue anyway to provide Leicester with an adequate service north and south.

Longer trains, with the slower service dropping the calls south of Kettering as an electrified and expanded Corby service picks them up.

I wish someone had though5 if that.

True, except may of the trains will actually be shorter.

 

[Bald Rick]

True, except may of the trains will actually be shorter.

True, I perhaps should have said ‘more seats on average’.

 

[Purple Orange]

Which I've already addressed in the post you quoted.

I didn’t feel like you did, hence why I asked. I’m not strictly advocating for Nottingham to be served by Thameslink, but Peterborough and Cambridge fits in to your logic as to why Nottingham shouldn’t be serviced. Claiming it doesn’t work for a 2 hr journey also doesn’t tally with the LNW operation from Crewe.

I’m know I’m simply playing devils advocate here, (and this is not aimed at you specifically) but it is frustrating to read answers to questions that often don’t give a full reason, despite the poster giving an impression of being in a place of knowledge and understanding as to why X, Y or Z doesn’t happen. Sorry if that comes across as a bit blunt, but this forum does frustrate me sometimes.

Why does Nottingham need 4 trains per hour to London? It doesn't.

Why doesn’t it? We can apply that logic in reverse to a lot of places. Why does Peterborough need more than 2 tph, when it currently sees in far excess of that. The town itself is of far less importance than Nottingham or Leicester, which are cities that could easily support more than they currently get, infrastructure limitations notwithstanding.

 

[Jorge Da Silva]

Peterborough is much closer to London and is more comparable to Bedford which also has 4tph and Milton Keynes which 7tph to London (I think).

Nottingham is more comparable to Leeds as it is Long Distance Peterborough has a commuter service

my point is Peterborough isn’t the same comparison as Nottingham

 

[JonathanH]

I didn’t feel like you did, hence why I asked. I’m not strictly advocating for Nottingham to be served by Thameslink, but Peterborough and Cambridge fits in to your logic as to why Nottingham shouldn’t be serviced. Claiming it doesn’t work for a 2 hr journey also doesn’t tally with the LNW operation from Crewe.

I get the feeling that lower prices on the LNW operation from Crewe could be exactly the sort of thing which the DfT / Treasury would be looking under the banner of 'simplification' of fares and increasing revenue. I suspect that the sentiment will be that one operator should not undercut another.

If LNW fares from Crewe to London were the same as Avanti ones - ie just one any permitted fare - it would just be seen as the local service on the WCML.

Most of the arguments for extending something stopping services to Leicester and Nottingham appear to be about cheaper fares which isn't how the DfT / Treasury appear to think.

Why doesn’t it? We can apply that logic in reverse to a lot of places. Why does Peterborough need more than 2 tph, when it currently sees in far excess of that. The town itself is of far less importance than Nottingham or Leicester, which are cities that could easily support more than they currently get, infrastructure limitations notwithstanding.

Peterborough is an interchange station for East Anglia and the natural terminus of a stopping service from London. Nottingham and Leicester aren't in the same way. Leicester has more services to London than Nottingham for obvious reasons.

 

[43096]

Why doesn’t it? We can apply that logic in reverse to a lot of places. Why does Peterborough need more than 2 tph, when it currently sees in far excess of that. The town itself is of far less importance than Nottingham or Leicester, which are cities that could easily support more than they currently get, infrastructure limitations notwithstanding.

Because there isn’t the demand. “Why doesn’t it?” isn’t an answer - you need to demonstrate the need for it.

 

[Roast Veg]

Completely pointless to run another Nottingham-London service that doesn't link anywhere new other than possibly Stevenage, when Toton provides extra Nottingham-London capacity anyway. The existing Nottingham-London service would have to continue anyway to provide Leicester with an adequate service north and south.

It gives you a faster Grantham and Peterborough surely? Additionaly, it would allow you to look at avoiding Grantham on the Nottingham to Skegness service (assuming the link to Sleaford could be preserved by other means).

 

[edwin_m]

It gives you a faster Grantham and Peterborough surely? Additionaly, it would allow you to look at avoiding Grantham on the Nottingham to Skegness service (assuming the link to Sleaford could be preserved by other means).

How many people travel between Peterborough and Nottingham? Is 1TPH (2TPH for Grantham) not enough? And if it makes those stops it's probably slower than via Leicester anyway.

 

[Purple Orange]

Because there isn’t the demand. “Why doesn’t it?” isn’t an answer - you need to demonstrate the need for it.

I don’t have any evidence other than food for thought offered by the OP. But like many threads on here, forumers often shut down discussions quite bluntly without explanation. That is why I pushed for an answer.

 

[Roast Veg]

How many people travel between Peterborough and Nottingham? Is 1TPH (2TPH for Grantham) not enough? And if it makes those stops it's probably slower than via Leicester anyway.

I make it less than 10 minutes slower - it isn't faster even non-stop.

 

[DJ_K666]

For me it's not the North to South serviices that need improving it's the east to west, as I have family in Leicester and would like to see them without driving so that a) I can go to the pub and B) I can go along with the general desire to reduce car journeys. The general assumption for me that I only want to go to London or Birmingham is wrong, If I need to get to Nottingham (Which is just up the road really, I have friends there and go to concerts there) I have to get a train from Rugby (WCML) to Nuneaton, assuming I take the XX42 wait there for an hour (An hour!!!! as the Leicester train leaves a minute before the one from Rugby reaches Nuneaton. A connection Southern would surely approve of) and then a train to Leicester (MML) and then a 10 minute connection to Nottingham. Whole journey 1 hour and 5 minutes. Waiting time 1 hour 8 minutes, which to me means not worth it.

Ironically the quickest journey clocks in at around 1 hr 54 minutes with 3 (count 'em) changes, at Coventry, Bubeaton, Leicester and then onto Nottingham. It's still a monumental faff when I can just drive for 40 minutes and go straight there up the M1 but I still want to be able to have a drink and enjoy myself.

So in my view I would leave the 'London to...' services alone as they are fine as they are, with plenty of trains running and sort out the ability to go horizontally too, which is far too hard in my view. This means though the reopening of things like Rugby to Leicester via Ullesthorpe or the Market Harborough line via Clifton. I don;t know if there's demand, I am guessing not although loads of overpriced shoeboxes housing is going up along the line so maybe a business case can be produced. Unfortunately really it needs to be 200K near each station. Ditto for Leamington to Rugby and Northampton to Bedford and Peterborough.

It would help Me anyway.

 

[edwin_m]

For me it's not the North to South serviices that need improving it's the east to west, as I have family in Leicester and would like to see them without driving so that a) I can go to the pub and B) I can go along with the general desire to reduce car journeys. The general assumption for me that I only want to go to London or Birmingham is wrong, If I need to get to Nottingham (Which is just up the road really, I have friends there and go to concerts there) I have to get a train from Rugby (WCML) to Nuneaton, assuming I take the XX42 wait there for an hour (An hour!!!! as the Leicester train leaves a minute before the one from Rugby reaches Nuneaton. A connection Southern would surely approve of) and then a train to Leicester (MML) and then a 10 minute connection to Nottingham. Whole journey 1 hour and 5 minutes. Waiting time 1 hour 8 minutes, which to me means not worth it.

Ironically the quickest journey clocks in at around 1 hr 54 minutes with 3 (count 'em) changes, at Coventry, Bubeaton, Leicester and then onto Nottingham. It's still a monumental faff when I can just drive for 40 minutes and go straight there up the M1 but I still want to be able to have a drink and enjoy myself.

So in my view I would leave the 'London to...' services alone as they are fine as they are, with plenty of trains running and sort out the ability to go horizontally too, which is far too hard in my view. This means though the reopening of things like Rugby to Leicester via Ullesthorpe or the Market Harborough line via Clifton. I don;t know if there's demand, I am guessing not although loads of overpriced shoeboxes housing is going up along the line so maybe a business case can be produced. Unfortunately really it needs to be 200K near each station. Ditto for Leamington to Rugby and Northampton to Bedford and Peterborough.

It would help Me anyway.

It wouldn't help You, but East West Rail does create opportunities for a through service Nottingham to Oxford and beyond, which does help quite a few people making similar journeys.

 

[DJ_K666]

It wouldn't help You, but East West Rail does create opportunities for a through service Nottingham to Oxford and beyond, which does help quite a few people making similar journeys.

Yeah that means going south to go north. Really I need some way of accessing the MML, which is infuriatingly close but means a stupid number of changes to get where I am going, some of those changes involving ridiculous waits. Really there needs to be a line going across every 20 miles or so and without endlessly having to double back.

 

[Dr Hoo]

Yeah that means going south to go north. Really I need some way of accessing the MML, which is infuriatingly close but means a stupid number of changes to get where I am going, some of those changes involving ridiculous waits. Really there needs to be a line going across every 20 miles or so and without endlessly having to double back.

As someone who lived in Northamptonshire for 20 years; in my experience a lot of people would drive via the A14 to railhead at either Rugby or Kettering (or more recently Market Harborough) depending on how their journeys worked out via WCML and MML. Station parking usually easy and a lot quicker overall trip than multiple changes at Nuneaton, Leicester, Tamworth, etc.

 

[daodao]

Once HS2a opens as far as SE Staffordshire, the ex-MR line from there via Derby to Sheffield should be electrified to allow 2 tph to run via HS2 to Sheffield. Both of the 2 tph from St Pancras to Nottingham should then run as expresses non-stop to Leicester. There would be no need to build the eastern leg of HS2.

 

[The Planner]

Once HS2a opens as far as SE Staffordshire, the ex-MR line from there via Derby to Sheffield should be electrified to allow 2 tph to run via HS2 to Sheffield. Both of the 2 tph from St Pancras to Nottingham should then run as expresses non-stop to Leicester. There would be no need to build the eastern leg of HS2.

Not sure how that will work, 2a is to Crewe Basford Hall. It will only be the junction for the eastern leg that will be built near Water Orton, nothing else.

 

[Bald Rick]

Not sure how that will work, 2a is to Crewe Basford Hall. It will only be the junction for the eastern leg that will be built near Water Orton, nothing else.

Come on, you know better than that, you have to use smart timetabling...

On to the WCML at Handsacre. Reverse at Rugeley DS, across the ladder at 30, back to Lichfield and up the chord, Alrewas, RA Sheffield. Shouldn’t take more than a couple of hours to do that.