London Transport Traction Group; Project 483

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The EOR would be a suitable home for your 483 because as far as I know a three car set of 1938 stock operated together with pre-1938 stock on the line following the replacement of steam in 1957 up to 1960. Good luck with the project.
 
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lttgroup

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Do you have a mailing list set up so people can subscribe to updates?
Not as of yet. We will be setting this up as part of the membership scheme. For now updates will continue to be made on the website, here and on other forums.
The EOR would be a suitable home for your 483 because as far as I know a three car set of 1938 stock operated together with pre-1938 stock on the line following the replacement of steam in 1957 up to 1960. Good luck with the project.
I believe that the set in question was actually formed from the earlier flat-front 1935 Stock DMs and a Standard Stock trailer, the other set being Standard Stock throughout. Although 1935 and 1938 stock look very similar they are not identical.
 

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I believe that the set in question was actually formed from the earlier flat-front 1935 Stock DMs and a Standard Stock trailer, the other set being Standard Stock throughout. Although 1935 and 1938 stock look very similar they are not identical.
I have definitely read that following the replacement of steam in 1957 the line was run by two four car 1935 sets and a three car set of 1938 stock. I don't know why the line needed three trains as it could never accommodate more than two. One under maintenance I suppose. As well as that the electricity supply was from a sole sub-station at Epping and the juice could only power either one eight car train or two four car sets. In any case, only at Epping could an eight car train be managed as the platforms at the other stations were not long enough. This was one of the reasons why through trains from London were never run in LT days.
 

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I'm not saying I'm right! It's only what I've read. :D

Although I'm old enough to have travelled many times on the Epping-Ongar line, I'm not old enough to remember the end of steam on it. My first trip was probably about 1964 and I think 1962 stock did the job then - it was certainly "silver" as I remember (though it was a long time ago!)
 

Chris125

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SWR making it clear that only credible bids will be welcome: https://www.southwesternrailway.com...f-service-island-lines-trains-ready-to-retire

South Western Railway is looking for new homes for the trains as soon as possible, to make room for the arrival of the first Class 484s for testing this year. SWR has already received several expressions of interest from preservation groups, including the neighbouring Isle of Wight Steam Railway.

Organisations interested in adopting a soon to be former Island Line train will need to demonstrate the capacity and financial security to remove and look after the train, as well as a suitable long-term physical location for the train. They may also need to prepare a plan to manage potentially hazardous substances where these remain on the units, which will need to meet the satisfaction of the Office of Rail & Road and other statutory bodies.

The trains are also subject to a statutory Designation Notice following the decision of the Board of Trustees’ of the Science Museum on 4 March 2020. Prior to ownership transferring, SWR would need to ensure the future plans for some or all of the vehicles were acceptable to the Board of Trustees.
 

Bedpan

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Almost certainly just a pipedream, but if there was to be a section of electrified track somewhere to run a class 483 (EOR would be great) then presumably in theory there would be nothing to prevent the 2-BIL, 4-SUB, 4-VEP or any other preserved EMUs taking power from the same source.
 

Journeyman

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Almost certainly just a pipedream, but if there was to be a section of electrified track somewhere to run a class 483 (EOR would be great) then presumably in theory there would be nothing to prevent the 2-BIL, 4-SUB, 4-VEP or any other preserved EMUs taking power from the same source.
Sadly this is likely to be affected by the legislation that prevents even Network Rail expanding third-rail electrification. :(

I think the best chance of running EMUs in preservation is development of battery technology.
 

lttgroup

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We are well aware of this and have been preparing a detailed plan for submission via the email address provided.
Almost certainly just a pipedream, but if there was to be a section of electrified track somewhere to run a class 483 (EOR would be great) then presumably in theory there would be nothing to prevent the 2-BIL, 4-SUB, 4-VEP or any other preserved EMUs taking power from the same source.
Sadly this is likely to be affected by the legislation that prevents even Network Rail expanding third-rail electrification. :(

I think the best chance of running EMUs in preservation is development of battery technology.
The likelihood of there being any chance of electrifying a suitable preserved line, and there are only very few which would be suitable, is very slim, certainly in the foreseeable future, so as we see it the only practical way of running an EMU in preservation is via an on-board power source.
 

Chris125

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The likelihood of there being any chance of electrifying a suitable preserved line, and there are only very few which would be suitable, is very slim, certainly in the foreseeable future, so as we see it the only practical way of running an EMU in preservation is via an on-board power source.
Indeed, but sadly aside from MLVs there are few (any?) EMUs in preservation that have an on-board power source either - presumably due to the cost and the absence of sustainable, regular use to justify it.
 

lttgroup

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Regular use might be the key thing here, but I think that looking to the future self-powered EMUs (preferably battery, but possibly with a modern diesel generator) might provide a more environmentally friendly alternative to current low season DMMU and DEMU services. Potentially a cheaper alternative too.
 

Dunfanaghy Rd

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If a railway can get a TWAO, or has a LRO, that allows the use of electric traction (batteries excepted) then fine. But I know that (for example) both the Mid Hants LROs are specific:
1596135277368.png
and
1596135329029.png
I would be very surprised if these was not standard clauses. Makes running any EMU tricky, given that they weren't designed to accommodate a genset.
Pat
 

pdeaves

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<dreamy-eyed> Could there be the possibility of 'third rail' that only switches on in sections where the train is, rather like the old 'stud contact' system for trams of yore? Thus, an infrastructure solution rather than a physical train solution? </>
 

Speed43125

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<dreamy-eyed> Could there be the possibility of 'third rail' that only switches on in sections where the train is, rather like the old 'stud contact' system for trams of yore? Thus, an infrastructure solution rather than a physical train solution? </>
Sounds like you're describing the Innorail APS system, as demonstrated in Bordeaux Trams. Commercially, its role has largely been done away with by using battery operation in areas where OHLE is unsuitable/undesirable. However, the system still exists, if rather expensive.
I think Cost would be the biggest stumbling block to any form of Heritage electrification. But this is all getting OT.
 

lttgroup

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I personally feel that heritage railway electrification is, sadly, but a dream currently. Hopefully that may change in the future.

For a relatively lightweight unit such as a 483 we feel that accommodating batteries in the first seating bay behind the 'D' end car's cab (The D end is the one which has the compressor on it), sealing this off as a battery compartment. In order to create a degree of separation between this compartment and the public we envisage that there would be a second partition after the first set of doors to create a van area. If it makes it any easier to visualise, the basic layout wouldn't be dissimilar to one of the BR 'Thumper' DMs - Cab, then the 'power' bit, then a van and finally the passenger space.

I should mention here that we are also now open to non-binding financial pledges and are likely to be having to open for donations and membership earlier than originally intended; http://www.lttractiongroup.co.uk/pledges-and-fundraising.html
 

Neil Urquhart

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Something obvious has just occurred to me.... The way for a preserved DC EMU to run in preservation is either via 3rd rail or by getting power from some form of electricity source that travels with the unit - e.g. batteries.

How practical would it be for an EMU to draw DC current using a diesel-electric loco as the source? I'm guessing that there is a very practical reason why this hasn't been mentioned anywhere.

At a basic level, a type 2 or above provides enough energy to shift an EMU. Given that diesel electrics are tested by connecting them to a load bank, could the same connection mechanism be used, but with the traction circuits of an EMU as the electrical load?

Neil U
 

lttgroup

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That might have the potential to work, but in my view defeats the object of trying to run an EMU via it's own traction motors rather than by simply propelling it with that Type 2- The Type 2 will be making quite a bit of noise regardless and part of what we're aiming or is to provide something of the experience of travelling the Ongar branch back in the days when it was part of the Central Line, and back then they didn't have a noisy BR Type 2 running behind or in front of the thing to provide power! They didn't have batteries either, obviously, but the sounds are not really much different with that to running off the juice rails.

Regarding powering, I suggest that anyone interested simply keeps an eye on our website - www.lttractiongroup.co.uk
 

Peter C

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I like what the group are planning to do. I must say, however, I am in the somewhat-sceptical club: but, if history has taught us anything, it's never say never in the preservation scene! Projects such as Didcot's "King" and "Saint" were described as "impossible" by some yet now we have two fully-functioning steam engines.
I wish the group the best of luck in securing a unit: if it all goes ahead, this could be one of the most interesting heritage railway developments in recent years. I also really like the section of the website where you've got the OO gauge model of a Class 483 you can print out - I'm definitely going to have a go at making it, and if it works, it will become part of my layout's fleet for sure! :D

-Peter
 

lttgroup

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Thank you for your kind wishes - When I started the group back in May it was with a degree of tentativeness and an attitude of "well it's worth trying". Now we've got to where we are, I am rather more confident that we at least stand a chance of success. I've long wanted to see an EMU running 'properly' in preservation, and I've always loved the '38 stock, so if we can start something of a trend by doing this then that would be all the better!

If you want any assistance with the 483 kit, please do get in touch as it can be a touch fiddly. There have been a few built, however, so it's not impossible! And feel free to use the 483 TS reskin in scenarios too, although the model itself is a bit knackered and is showing its age badly.
 

Chris125

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Regular use might be the key thing here, but I think that looking to the future self-powered EMUs (preferably battery, but possibly with a modern diesel generator) might provide a more environmentally friendly alternative to current low season DMMU and DEMU services. Potentially a cheaper alternative too.
Quite possibly, alas it's hard to look at EMU preservation and see how a 483 would attract the funding and interest that conventional units with mainland and mainline pedigree struggle with so badly.
 
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Peter C

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Thank you for your kind wishes - When I started the group back in May it was with a degree of tentativeness and an attitude of "well it's worth trying". Now we've got to where we are, I am rather more confident that we at least stand a chance of success. I've long wanted to see an EMU running 'properly' in preservation, and I've always loved the '38 stock, so if we can start something of a trend by doing this then that would be all the better!

If you want any assistance with the 483 kit, please do get in touch as it can be a touch fiddly. There have been a few built, however, so it's not impossible! And feel free to use the 483 TS reskin in scenarios too, although the model itself is a bit knackered and is showing its age badly.
You're very welcome. Hopefully in years to come we'll see a 483 bouncing around the country at galas and whatnot!
I had a look at the kit and it seems to be very comprehensive. Normally a 00 gauge model of a 483 is really expensive so the fact that you're offering this for free is brilliant. I'll definitely be in touch if I have any issues :) The TS reskin is also going to be very useful indeed - I can see it making for more realistic scenarios.

-Peter
 

lttgroup

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At some point we may be able to offer a better kit, more suitable for those who want a running model, but that wouldn't be free (it would, however, be cheaper than the alternative options).

Hopefully any 483 we get wouldn't be bouncing quite as much as they do at the moment!!

As for funding, we feel that we have certain things to offer and a certain appeal that perhaps other schemes may be lacking; The withdrawal of the 483s is attracting quite a bit of attention from outside the railway community on account of their age and, additionally, we are looking to offer a potentially unique experience in preservation, that of travelling by tube train on a former tube line without any diesels attached.
 

Peter C

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At some point we may be able to offer a better kit, more suitable for those who want a running model, but that wouldn't be free (it would, however, be cheaper than the alternative options).

Hopefully any 483 we get wouldn't be bouncing quite as much as they do at the moment!!
Sounds good! :)
I've never been on a 483 before so I look forward to seeing what your group can do to preserve one. Even without the bouncing, it would be lovely to ride on one in preservation :D

-Peter
 

Peter C

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I'd certainly recommend a trip on them in service, if only as a one-off experience to see just how rough that trackwork is.
It was one of several journeys I put on the list of places I want to go, but just never got round to it before lockdown. Hopefully I can get down there before they leave :)
Also - regarding the Class 483 kit, the floor of the unit has sections marking where seats should go, but there aren't any seats on the sheet. Is there anywhere I can find something to fill these spaces? E.g. photos of seats I can print out and make into a model?

Thanks,

-Peter
 

Spoorslag '70

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How practical would it be for an EMU to draw DC current using a diesel-electric loco as the source? I'm guessing that there is a very practical reason why this hasn't been mentioned anywhere.
The tram museum in Dortmund (https://www.bahnhof-mooskamp.de/) does this to run tramcars on a non-electrified former industrial line. They put a standard diesel generator (as found on building sites etc.) on wheels and can hook that up to their trams. Something like that would have the benefit of making it possible to use any DC 3rd rail units with it (e.g. you could hook it up to a "standard" slam door EMU as well) without having to modify things.
The noise issue does still exist with that soloution (but one could also replace the generator with a battery pack or something...).

I would also like to wish the group all the best for the project - the Isle Of Wight is quite out of my way sadly.
 

Peter C

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I'll have to chase up the seats - Artwork does exist but it hasn't found its way to the website yet.

The IoW ferries have re-started now, so if you get the chance in the next few weeks make the most of it.
Ah OK - thanks very much :)

-Peter
 

341o2

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I'd certainly recommend a trip on them in service, if only as a one-off experience to see just how rough that trackwork is.
Isn't the issue in part due to the trains? I remember an account being added to the "Future of the Island line" on this forum regarding lateral movement of the bogies, and the need to damp them. The train is running fine, then suddenly a graunching noise, and the carriage sways.

I plan to go later in the year - probably October, when the sun is lower, less crowded, less expensive, provided lockdown isn't reinstated.

From the Island Echo,

Summer 2020 - first 484 delivered
October/November - more 484's delivered
Winter 2020/1 - partial closures to allow engineering work to take place
Febuary 2021- last 484's delivered
March 2021 - Last 483 decomissioned - their wording, and line closed
May 2021 - Line reopened, new timetable with 484's
 
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