London Travelcard to Heathrow

[richieb1971]

If you have a zone 1-6 travel card can you use the Paddington-Heathrow stopper?

Are there time savings/comfort benefits to going to Paddington instead of the Piccadilly line?

I only learnt of the stopper yesterday after watching a youtube of a friends channel. I am sure this train is not under umbrella of the "Heathrow Express" which only stops at Heathrow.

Thanks all.

 

[gazthomas]

Only as far Hayes and Harlington I understand, so the Piccaddily line is the only valid rail option, unless you buy a ticket for the remaining section

Google (a wonderfully useful search engine) provided this link which confirms it:

https://www.heathrowconnect.com/tickets

 

[AnkleBoots]

You could get the bus between Hayes and Heathrow, or between West Drayton and Heathrow

 

[Tetchytyke]

You can only use the stopper as far as Hayes and Harlington.

Your options from there are either to buy a single (BEFORE boarding at Paddington) from Hayes to Heathrow, or to take a local bus. Alternatively, it's the Piccadilly Line.

 

[mattdickinson]

Gatelines and Oyster ticket machines are currently being installed at Heathrow in preparation for TfL Rail services from May. Whether Heathrow will be in Zone 6 is still unclear.

 

[richieb1971]

Thanks for all the information regarding the ticketing.

Its a pity its not made easy for people that are buying a travel card to just get an extension if required. It seems rather silly to have Heathrow as Zone 6 in Piccadilly line terms but not on railway terms.

 

[Hadders]

Thanks for all the information regarding the ticketing.

Its a pity its not made easy for people that are buying a travel card to just get an extension if required. It seems rather silly to have Heathrow as Zone 6 in Piccadilly line terms but not on railway terms.

They don't want people paying Zone 6 prices to use the 'premium' Heathrow services...

 

[richieb1971]

They don't want people paying Zone 6 prices to use the 'premium' Heathrow services...

The train will run whether or not anyone is on it. Lets over load a tube line with Heathrow passengers that don't have adequate space to put 6 suit cases, whilst on the other track a dedicated train from Paddington charges back and forth at speed at less than half capacity. That really makes sense.. Totally INSANE if you ask me.

Meanwhile on the MML you can get a ticket to Gatwick on a normal train that costs not much more than London ticket. Is there a direct path from the MML to Heathrow? Thameslink should think long and hard about setting up a route. None of this high ticketing monopoly shenanigans.

 

[James H]

It seems rather silly to have Heathrow as Zone 6 in Piccadilly line terms but not on railway terms.

It's a legacy of the fact that the mainline rail link to Heathrow was funded, built and is managed by the airport itself, rather than by the public sector.

 

[TUC]

It's a legacy of the fact that the mainline rail link to Heathrow was funded, built and is managed by the airport itself, rather than by the public sector.

Or to put it the other way round, the public sector built a tube line to Heathrow without it apparantly occuring to them that they would need to leave plenty of space for luggage.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Or to put it the other way round, the public sector built a tube line to Heathrow without it apparantly occuring to them that they would need to leave plenty of space for luggage.

1. What proportion of the Piccadilly Line's total users travel to/from Heathrow?

2. What proportion of passengers travelling to/from Heathrow (including Hatton Cross) are airport employees unencumbered by luggage?

3. How do you provide "plenty of space for luggage" on a tube-sized train without decreasing peak hour capacity in central London?

Without knowing the answers to these questions your statement has no meaningful validity. Any offers...?

 

[TUC]

1. What proportion of the Piccadilly Line's total users travel to/from Heathrow?

2. What proportion of passengers travelling to/from Heathrow (including Hatton Cross) are airport employees unencumbered by luggage?

3. How do you provide "plenty of space for luggage" on a tube-sized train without decreasing peak hour capacity in central London?

Without knowing the answers to these questions your statement has no meaningful validity. Any offers...?

But I think it does. As TfL constantly needs to remember, it's not just about Londoners, and as the Picadilly line is the most direct and cheapest way of connecting from the ECML to Heathrow, the question is more why TFL would expect that people would do anything else?

 

[Joe Paxton]

The 1973 Tube Stock on the Piccadilly line were indeed designed with air travellers' luggage in mind.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

But I think it does. As TfL constantly needs to remember, it's not just about Londoners, and as the Picadilly line is the most direct and cheapest way of connecting from the ECML to Heathrow, the question is more why TFL would expect that people would do anything else?

I take it you have details of just how many passengers there are travelling from the ECML to Heathrow via the Piccadilly Line. And just what percentage do they consist of as part of overall usage of TfL services? I have little doubt it is a vanishingly small number but perhaps you know better. Given just how popular Heathrow's proximity to London is with the residents under its flightpaths it would actually be quite reasonable for TfL to be relatively ambivalent about the needs of Heathrow users who are travelling to/from places well outside of London, be they on the ECML or anywhere else.

Remember too that with the completion of both the Thameslink upgrade and Crossrail/Elizabeth line passengers on the south end of the ECML will have direct interchange between the two at Faringdon providing a much better one-stop connection than exists today.

 

[TUC]

I take it you have details of just how many passengers there are travelling from the ECML to Heathrow via the Piccadilly Line. And just what percentage do they consist of as part of overall usage of TfL services? I have little doubt it is a vanishingly small number but perhaps you know better. Given just how popular Heathrow's proximity to London is with the residents under its flightpaths it would actually be quite reasonable for TfL to be relatively ambivalent about the needs of Heathrow users who are travelling to/from places well outside of London, be they on the ECML or anywhere .

You serm very sure about the numbers. Do you know? (And incidentially, in this kind of situation it's numbers that count, not percentages, since London's population size csn give misleading impresdions on percentages.) And yes, given how much government money TfL takes instead of Londoners paying their own way, national considererations do matter.

 

[TUC]

Just to add that I took a quick look at Google Maps to check what route it gave as the quickest by travel by public transport from where I live in Halifax to Heathrow tomorrow morning. For three of the four journeys it included the Piccadilly line from KX to Heathrow so travellers searching for the quickest route will likely be directed that way.

 

[James H]

And yes, given how much government money TfL takes instead of Londoners paying their own way, national considererations do matter.

One of the reasons for TfL’s current woes is that it no longer receives central Government revenue funding
.

 

[plcd1]

And yes, given how much government money TfL takes instead of Londoners paying their own way, national considererations do matter.

Err what? TfL receives no revenue subsidy for any transport services from 1 April this year. The Underground earns a 9 digit operating surplus. DLR, Overground and Crossrail all have to earn an operating surplus from 2020 and only minimal deficits over next 2 years. It receives no government funding for the maintenance of the TfL road network either. Therefore public transport surpluses and other charges have to pay for the TfL road network. This is a far more burdensome situation than any other major UK conurbation faces.

There is funding from Govt for capital investment but that is constrained and is less than TfL wanted.

And to get back to Heathrow TfL has no control over the fares and operation of Heathrow Express. TfL has no remit to take a national view - its remit is about transport in the area defined by the Greater London Authority Act, predecessor legislation as applied to LT / LRT and also as subsequently varied by Govt since 2000. This is why TfL has a slightly wider view on certain rail services (the Labour Govt expanded the remit when Ken L was Mayor). The Crossrail Act also creates railway specific obligations and carve outs from national rail legislation. This touches on access to Heathrow too.

It remains to be seen what fares structure applies on Heathrow stopping services when MTR Crossrail take over the "Connect" service in May this year. The key to this is what deal has been put together over access charges into Heathrow and then how TfL decide to cover the payment - do they charge passengers a premium (but lower than HEX) fare as applies now or do they carry the access charge in the background and just charge the Z16 standard fare into the airport. If they do the latter then they must live in hope that such a price cut will be strongly generative and will bring in more money overall rather than just redistributing some passengers from the Picc Line to what will be "TfL Rail" in the short term. Even the DfT, who do have the requirement to take a national view, were extremely unhappy with the antics of Heathrow Airport over their decision to withdraw their funding contribution for Crossrail and then the attempt to charge outrageously high access charges for TfL contracted services from May this year. It was one of the rare occasions where the DfT and TfL were "on the same page" over an issue.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

You serm very sure about the numbers. Do you know? (And incidentially, in this kind of situation it's numbers that count, not percentages, since London's population size csn give misleading impresdions on percentages.) And yes, given how much government money TfL takes instead of Londoners paying their own way, national considererations do matter.

If it's numbers that count then I can safely say that the need to provide as much space as possible inside Piccadilly Line trains for passengers in Zones 1&2 massively outweighs the need to provide luggage space for passengers travelling to/from Heathrow. Massively. Just because the Piccadilly Line goes to Heathrow does not mean it is a dedicated service solely provided for the benefit of airport users, even if from your point of view living in Halifax it appears as though it might be just such a thing.

 

[TUC]

Who's talking about a dedicated service? Rather I'm simply saying that as the quickest, most direct route ftom the north of England it's an important part of the market. For someone living in 'sunny south Lancs' you seem to be reflecting the kind of insularity that gives Londoners a bad name.

 

[TUC]

Err what? TfL receives no revenue subsidy for any transport services from 1 April this year. The Underground earns a 9 digit operating surplus. DLR, Overground and Crossrail all have to earn an operating surplus from 2020 and only minimal deficits over next 2 years. It receives no government funding for the maintenance of the TfL road network either.

There is funding from Govt for capital investment but that is constrained and is less than TfL wanted.

.

But that's my point-a huge capital subsidy. So what is it is constrained? It's still much, much larger than any other part of the country and so reflects national, not just parochial needs.

 

[richieb1971]

From my point of view it is unacceptable for me and my wife to land at Heathrow at 7am onwards, to get on a tube train with 3 or 4 big suit cases and bags and have nowhere to put them. People trying to get on the tube train at stops between Heathrow and St Pancras were swearing because we blocked the gangways. We literally had nowhere else to put the stuff. We felt uncomfortable, the other passengers were obviously in their right minds to have a go, its simply not a good thing for any of the parties involved.

Gatwick is on a mainline supported by normal trains and at normal prices. All this "Express" crap is just nonsense. Its a normal train with a purpose to get people quickly to the airport without disruption to other services. But if the price is not right or you have to pay premium prices to get on this particular train it puts people off using it. Next time I'm at Paddington I'm going to have a look at how many people actually ride the Express.

Anyway, my original question was about the stopper from Paddington, not the express. The stopper should be immune to the premium restrictions put on the express. Although my own point of view is that a purpose built train should be used to capacity and DEFINITELY be competitively priced. Which it sounds its not.

£25 single
£37 return.

OMG! Take the shirt off my back.

 

[Starmill]

I don't really understand the problem. If someone swears at you that's unacceptable behavior. If you have paid your fare and you are within the conditions of the carriage of luggage on London Underground you will be fine using the Piccadilly line.

If you think it's 'unacceptable' to use the Piccadilly line, whose trains are designed based on a compromise between the needs of the huge majority of users and a small number of people who use it with very large bags, then you have the option to take a taxi to your destination. Of course, that will probably cost a lot more than Heathrow Express.

 

[Starmill]

Google (a wonderfully useful search engine) provided this link which confirms it:

https://www.heathrowconnect.com/tickets

It's a great website. Uses images as text, only takes up half of my screen, and this slogan:

Heathrow Connect

When time is not an issue...

 

[richieb1971]

I heard that when EWR is finished there may be a connection to Heathrow. That would be nice. I think the point i'm making here is that the other airports are fairer than Heathrow. I'm also saying that based on my findings today I will avoid Heathrow like the plague if I am going to the airport by train.

 

[Shaw S Hunter]

Who's talking about a dedicated service? Rather I'm simply saying that as the quickest, most direct route ftom the north of England it's an important part of the market. For someone living in 'sunny south Lancs' you seem to be reflecting the kind of insularity that gives Londoners a bad name.

You cannot be serious! Just how many passengers do you think there are travelling from ECML stations to Heathrow? I doubt that the total in one day would come near to filling even a single Piccadilly Line train yet the local demand has them running every few minutes. As for the most direct route for many of Heathrow's destinations the most direct route from Halifax is via Manchester Airport which just happens to have a National Rail service to the door. In fact Halifax will soon have a direct service there. Or failing that try flying from Leeds via Amsterdam or Paris.

 

[zoneking]

I very much agree with the sentiment here - the Piccadilly line should have enough space for luggage, just as the new Thameslink trains do.

The main gripe I have with the tube, is that travel within Heathrow airport should be free, just as it is with buses and the HEX..A large number of people do use the Piccadilly line to go to Heathrow. The airport expansion proposals are supposed to encourage people to use public transport, not the roads, so hopefully prices will come down. Bringing down prices is the best way to encourage people to use public transport rather than drive, as well as speed and comfort.

For me, having a zones 1-6 travelcard, I refuse to pay to use the HEX or connect. I have found the quickest way for destinations south of the river is to get the tube to Hatton cross, the bus to Feltham and then SWT to Clapham Junction or Waterloo.

 

[WelshBluebird]

The main gripe I have with the tube, is that travel within Heathrow airport should be free

It is isn't it?

 

[mattdickinson]

It is isn't it?

It is, with interchange only at Hatton Cross, but you need an Oyster or contactless card.

 

[Haywain]

I very much agree with the sentiment here - the Piccadilly line should have enough space for luggage, just as the new Thameslink trains do.

Apart from the luggage racks, all that space on the new Thameslink trains is for commuters to stand up in the peak - it's what passes for 'capacity' these days.