London Travelcards at risk

[PeterC]

A senior rail card discounted out boundary travel card from Martins Heron is worth it if you are doing more than one Zone 1 journey. As for on board ticket inspections I was checked yesterday on an Overground train, two burly ticket revenue chaps going through the carriage. I seemed to be the the only one with a paper ticket, the rest were a combination of oyster/contactless/phones so regrettably the writing may be on the wall for paper travelcards.

I assume that Overground gets inspections because so many stations are without barriers. When commuting on the Met line there were occasional on-train inspections before barriers were installed at the outer stations. I never saw one after that.

Apart from track bashing enthusiasts there are a tiny number of edge cases where a paper ticket would be advantageous for use within the zones.

 

[matt_world2004]

I assume that Overground gets inspections because so many stations are without barriers. When commuting on the Met line there were occasional on-train inspections before barriers were installed at the outer stations. I never saw one after that.

Apart from track bashing enthusiasts there are a tiny number of edge cases where a paper ticket would be advantageous for use within the zones.

When there are barriers the inspections usually switch to gateline checks of high value or concessionary tickets. The barrier would be set to reject them or flash orange and they call the person over to visually verify their identification

This is safer for the staff as there is usually a place of safety within the station but not nessescarily when working on board a train

 

[AM9]

GTR call tickets issued using a smartcard 'Smart'.

If paper Travelcards are withdrawn, they can still presumably continue on ITSO. Many Day Travelcards are already available on ITSO. No problems with exceeding maximum journey times using those.

I assume that GTR's 'Key' is an ITSO card, but would that be suitable for travel outside GTR services and TfL?

 

[johncrossley]

I assume that GTR's 'Key' is an ITSO card, but would that be suitable for travel outside GTR services and TfL?

It works everywhere where a Travelcard works. So on other TOCs within the Travelcard area as well. They've been selling monthly and annual Travelcards on the Key online for years. Day Travelcards have to be obtained from the machine, as far as I know. Other TOCs let you buy Day Travelcards using their app, so you add the ticket using the NFC facility on your phone.

 

[AM9]

It works everywhere where a Travelcard works. So on other TOCs within the Travelcard area as well. They've been selling monthly and annual Travelcards on the Key online for years. Day Travelcards have to be obtained from the machine, as far as I know. Other TOCs let you buy Day Travelcards using their app, so you add the ticket using the NFC facility on your phone.

Which 'machine' is that - a normal TVM. I don't have NFC on my phone so how would I get a Travelcard on an ITSO card?

 

[johncrossley]

Which 'machine' is that - a normal TVM. I don't have NFC on my phone so how would I get a Travelcard on an ITSO card?

Yes, a normal ticket machine. So there's not a great advantage compared to buying a paper Travelcard from the same machine, although you don't have the problem of the magnetic strip not working gates. Without NFC you can't put a Day Travelcard on an ITSO card using a phone. They could in theory allow you to pick up the ticket from a ticket gate or ITSO reader, but I don't think anyone does that for Day Travelcards.

 

[Haywain]

Yes, a normal ticket machine. So there's not a great advantage compared to buying a paper Travelcard from the same machine, although you don't have the problem of the magnetic strip not working gates. Without NFC you can't put a Day Travelcard on an ITSO card using a phone. They could in theory allow you to pick up the ticket from a ticket gate or ITSO reader, but I don't think anyone does that for Day Travelcards.

It should also be possible to buy these from GTR ticket offices and others that can issue to smartcards.

 

[AM9]

Yes, a normal ticket machine. So there's not a great advantage compared to buying a paper Travelcard from the same machine, although you don't have the problem of the magnetic strip not working gates. Without NFC you can't put a Day Travelcard on an ITSO card using a phone. They could in theory allow you to pick up the ticket from a ticket gate or ITSO reader, but I don't think anyone does that for Day Travelcards.

So that's another obstacle to removing paper Travelcards, the much promoted ITSO card won't carry them unless every user has a newer smartphone with NFC. I can't belive that this urge to remove paper tickets has been thought through this the 'new GBR way to travel', i.e. invest in the latest technology before you travel.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Yes, a normal ticket machine. So there's not a great advantage compared to buying a paper Travelcard from the same machine, although you don't have the problem of the magnetic strip not working gates. Without NFC you can't put a Day Travelcard on an ITSO card using a phone. They could in theory allow you to pick up the ticket from a ticket gate or ITSO reader, but I don't think anyone does that for Day Travelcards.

Yet. If they were retained as ITSO only, there's no reason they wouldn't be sold or collectable from a TVM.

 

[johncrossley]

So that's another obstacle to removing paper Travelcards, the much promoted ITSO card won't carry them unless every user has a newer smartphone with NFC.

It isn't necessary to use a phone to add a Travelcard to an ITSO card. It is just convenient as you don't need to queue up. GTR don't even offer that possibility at the moment, but, for example, SWR does. But even if you don't have a phone, you can still buy a Day Travelcard if they removed the paper option as you can buy it using ITSO at the machine or ticket office.

Of course, they could scrap Day Travelcards altogether, so you can't even get them on ITSO, which is a possibility once contactless is rolled out to the rest of the south east. But that's a separate issue to scrapping paper tickets.

 

[swt_passenger]

At paddington are there gatelines on all routes between underground and mainline? The Map on NRE doesn't show one on the connection to the hammersmith and city/north circle route, but i'm fairly sure I encountered gatelines when I took that route to paddington a few years ago...

Yes there are, since the H&C got its new ticket hall and the bridge to platforms 10-14 was disconnected from 15/16. The NRES map doesn’t make it that clear that the interchange bridge is a dead end, and the H&C gateline is effectively off the map top right.

 

[RJ]

A senior rail card discounted out boundary travel card from Martins Heron is worth it if you are doing more than one Zone 1 journey. As for on board ticket inspections I was checked yesterday on an Overground train, two burly ticket revenue chaps going through the carriage. I seemed to be the the only one with a paper ticket, the rest were a combination of oyster/contactless/phones so regrettably the writing may be on the wall for paper travelcards.

Was that on a part of the Overground where there's a significant financial incentive to avoid Zone 1 and use Oyster/CPC?

I think a few more people might be using paper tickets on mainline trains into London where there's interchange with TfL services and holding a Zone 1-6 Travelcard makes sense.

 

[JonathanH]

Was that on a part of the Overground where there's a significant financial incentive to avoid Zone 1 and use Oyster/CPC?

There is a significant financial incentive for almost all journeys wholly within London (where no out-boundary ticket is needed) to be made by Oyster / Contactless

 

[RJ]

There is a significant financial incentive for almost all journeys wholly within London (where no out-boundary ticket is needed) to be made by Oyster / Contactless

A lot of people don't seem to think so. Variable pricing and being stung by incomplete fares only the once puts people off for good and some people will pay a small premium for the piece of mind a paper ticket gives.

 

[zero]

I assume that Overground gets inspections because so many stations are without barriers. When commuting on the Met line there were occasional on-train inspections before barriers were installed at the outer stations. I never saw one after that.

Apart from track bashing enthusiasts there are a tiny number of edge cases where a paper ticket would be advantageous for use within the zones.

I commuted on the Uxbridge branch (contraflow direction) in 2012 and was inspected on the train at least 3 times - pretty sure all stations were fully barriered by then, though not always staffed.

 

[davews]

It was Highbury and Islington to Hampstead Heath so I guess so with Richmond to Stratford avoiding central London. Only ended on it because my Northern Line to Hampstead train got stuck at Euston with a points failure at Camden Town so I hastily had to work out an alternative.

 

[boiledbeans2]

[...]I was checked yesterday on an Overground train, two burly ticket revenue chaps going through the carriage. I seemed to be the the only one with a paper ticket, the rest were a combination of oyster/contactless/phones so regrettably the writing may be on the wall for paper travelcards.

I've been in Central London on the last few Saturdays. When entering/exiting LU gatelines, I always take notice of what tickets others are using, and I do observe quite a few NR orange tickets.

I suppose on weekends, there are much more day trippers from the home counties with travelcards.

 

[Feuillesmortes]

I've been in Central London on the last few Saturdays. When entering/exiting LU gatelines, I always take notice of what tickets others are using, and I do observe quite a few NR orange tickets.

I suppose on weekends, there are much more day trippers from the home counties with travelcards.

Paper inboundary Travelcards are cheaper than Oyster/contactless, on the weekend for Network Railcard holders. Especially if you make use of the 28 hour rule.

 

[AM9]

Paper inboundary Travelcards are cheaper than Oyster/contactless, on the weekend for Network Railcard holders. Especially if you make use of the 28 hour rule.

"28 hour rule"?

 

[Feuillesmortes]

"28 hour rule"?

Paper = midnight to 0429
Oyster = 0430 to 0429

 

[JonathanH]

Paper = midnight to 0429
Oyster = 0430 to 0429

On National Rail lines.

Underground staff don't like paper travelcards before 0430.

 

[Hadders]

There has been a real shift in ticketing over the last few years.

Travel on a long distance train and paper tickets are very few and far between
Where contactless or Oyster is in use you'll hardly ever see a paper ticket.

The exceptions are long distance tickets which involve crossing London and outboundary travelcards where contactless/Oyster is not available.

It is very interesting to observe passenger behaviour from places like Hertford. Contactless/Oyster is accepted but at the weekends it is cheaper to purchase a paper super off peak one day travelcard if travelling to London. Despite this the vast, vast majority of passengers simply touch in using their contactless card.

I suspect the days of outboundary one day travelcards issued on paper are numbered. Once contactless is extended this will become the norm. There is of course the issue of railcards and super off peak tickets disappearing but the Government won't care about this, they'll see the additional income and say it's the sort of simplification passengers want.

 

[JonathanH]

It is very interesting to observe passenger behaviour from places like Hertford. Contactless/Oyster is accepted but at the weekends it is cheaper to purchase a paper super off peak one day travelcard if travelling to London. Despite this the vast, vast majority of passengers simply touch in using their contactless card.

With the 6% 'correction' in the Oyster / Contactless fare from Redhill to London on 1 March, from £6.60 to £7.00, the return fare will be £14.00 before any consideration is made of travelling round London. The off-peak travelcard from Redhill with a Network Railcard should still be under £13.00. There is almost no journey from Redhill after 0930 which should be made on Oyster / Contactless unless making a single journey.

The 'correction' in the peak single fare from Redhill to London on Oyster / Contactless is 8%, from £11.10 to £12.00.

Quite why they think the Oyster / Contactless fares from Redhill to London are underpriced and need to increase by more than the standard 3.8% isn't obvious.

 

[Wallsendmag]

Paper inboundary Travelcards are cheaper than Oyster/contactless, on the weekend for Network Railcard holders. Especially if you make use of the 28 hour rule.

Can't see them lasting much longer on paper

 

[JonathanH]

Can't see them lasting much longer on paper

How much official warning is there going to be of this? Presumably they will go at one of the secondary fare review points. Is it more likely that Travelcard is abolished full stop as a concept or the rail companies announce that it will continue as an ITSO product.

Given the change to PAYG in 2024, is there actually a benefit of going paper > ITSO > PAYG rather than paper > PAYG?

 

[[.n]]

There has been a real shift in ticketing over the last few years.

<snip>

I suspect the days of outboundary one day travelcards issued on paper are numbered. Once contactless is extended this will become the norm. There is of course the issue of railcards and super off peak tickets disappearing but the Government won't care about this, they'll see the additional income and say it's the sort of simplification passengers want.

There is also the issue of people who don't have contactless cards and presumably also children - but I suppose as you noted the Govt. won't care.

I don't people want simplification - they want cheaper more understandable pricing (subtle difference)

 

[plugwash]

Given the change to PAYG in 2024, is there actually a benefit of going paper > ITSO > PAYG rather than paper > PAYG?

Even with the expansion of PAYG, I doubt the London PAYG system* will reach all places outboundary travelcards are available from today.

* My understanding is that the government plans to set up multiple PAYG systems in different regions, presumably because a single nationwide system would have major practical issues.

 

[Hadders]

The London PAYG system will end up covering much of the old Network South East area and I believe it is only this area that is required to have outboundary travelcards under the travelcard agreement.

 

[johncrossley]

There is also the issue of people who don't have contactless cards and presumably also children - but I suppose as you noted the Govt. won't care.

I don't people want simplification - they want cheaper more understandable pricing (subtle difference)

If Travelcards continue on ITSO then child fares could be maintained that way.

 

[Wallsendmag]

The London PAYG system will end up covering much of the old Network South East area and I believe it is only this area that is required to have outboundary travelcards under the travelcard agreement.

We have a non CCST option already available and in place for our outboundary Travelcards, this isn't so much of a problem.