London Underground Managed Decline

[jumble]

This was threatened by Sadiq Khan in May last year
After last weeks travel I am wondering if it has actually started to be a thing or if I have been unlucky

Thursday
Destination Harrow
Green Park Rush Hour 18.15 ish No train 5 minutes Absolutely Rammed
Baker St 1820 No trains in Platform 1 or 4 although Trains at 1825 and 1833 in Working Timetable
Train from Aldgate absolutely rammed

Saturday 21.00
Earls Court to Rayners
Only trains to Heathrow every 10 minutes and again rammed
Waited 2O mins at Acton Town
As the line was closed beyond Kings cross one would expact more trains not less

 

[Peter Mugridge]

Thursday
Destination Harrow
Green Park Rush Hour 18.15 ish No train 5 minutes Absolutely Rammed
Baker St 1820 No trains in Platform 1 or 4 although Trains at 1825 and 1833 in Working Timetable
Train from Aldgate absolutely rammed

Saturday 21.00
Earls Court to Rayners
Only trains to Heathrow every 10 minutes and again rammed
Waited 2O mins at Acton Town
As the line was closed beyond Kings cross one would expact more trains not less

Green Park - which line; Piccadilly or Victoria? Five minutes isn't an unusual gap on the former, although I'd raise an eyebrow on the latter.

Rammed trains in the rush hour is pretty much normal in London.


For the Saturday; not necessarily - if trains are being turned at a location they aren't normally turned it can result in fewer trains because of the procedures necessary to turn them safely; there won't be the capacity to turn a full service frequency.

 

[Dstock7080]

As Cockfosters depot was within the closure, only Northfields and South Harrow could provide the trains for the Piccadilly weekend service, only 33 trains instead of 76 available.
A shuttle was running between Acton Town and Rayners Lane/Uxbridge

 

[Thirteen]

Heathrow had an issue on Saturday as well.

I used the Jubilee Line and the District Line that day and it was working fine.

 

[W-on-Sea]

I think of the managed decline that the tube was subject between approximately the 1970s and mid-1990s - the sheer filthiness and decay of even stations as busy and important (and in their way prestigious) as Bank. As for what Angel station was like before it was substantially remodelled and rebuilt.... Thankfully, we are a long way from that how, even if some things have not quite yet, as in other areas, returned to what had been pre-COVID norms.

 

[Thirteen]

I think the managed decline that the tube was subject between approximately the 1970s and mid-1990s - the sheer filthiness and decay of even stations as busy and important (and in their way prestigious) as Bank. As for what Angel station was like before it was substantially remodelled and rebuilt.... Thankfully, we are a long way from that how, even if some things have not quite yet, as in other areas, returned to what had been pre-COVID norms.

I remember seeing the pictures the Mayor put up to show what could happen if TfL went into managed decline but I suspect things would have needed to get really bad for that to happen now.

 

[thomalex]

Given TfL have been busy installing entirely superfluous little Superloop roundels on bus stops, even at one where buses don’t even stop, I don’t exactly think they’re as short of cash as they make out.

https://twitter.com/diamondgeezer/status/1679098909543608320?s=20

 

[jumble]

As Cockfosters depot was within the closure, only Northfields and South Harrow could provide the trains for the Piccadilly weekend service, only 33 trains instead of 76 available.
A shuttle was running between Acton Town and Rayners Lane/Uxbridge

Thanks as always for the explanation
It makes the waiting around less irritating

 

[bramling]

This was threatened by Sadiq Khan in May last year
After last weeks travel I am wondering if it has actually started to be a thing or if I have been unlucky

Thursday
Destination Harrow
Green Park Rush Hour 18.15 ish No train 5 minutes Absolutely Rammed
Baker St 1820 No trains in Platform 1 or 4 although Trains at 1825 and 1833 in Working Timetable
Train from Aldgate absolutely rammed

Saturday 21.00
Earls Court to Rayners
Only trains to Heathrow every 10 minutes and again rammed
Waited 2O mins at Acton Town
As the line was closed beyond Kings cross one would expact more trains not less

I wouldn’t necessarily put things down to the managed decline threatened by Khan. Truth is LU has been deteriorating for some years now, and much of this comes down to poor management and poor leadership.

Likewise that the organisation lost its engineering expertise when the PPP happened, and when you lose a corporate memory stretching back very many years it’s very difficult to get it back, especially when to compound this you have career party politicians sticking their oars in all the time as well.

Covid and its effects for sure haven’t helped, but I’m of the view that this has merely turbocharged a decline that was happening anyway.

 

[Basil Jet]

As Cockfosters depot was within the closure, only Northfields and South Harrow could provide the trains for the Piccadilly weekend service, only 33 trains instead of 76 available.
A shuttle was running between Acton Town and Rayners Lane/Uxbridge

I would be surprised if Kings Cross could turn the full Piccadilly service, even if they had the trains!

BTW, the Night tube runs on Fri/Sat and Sat/Sun, so the Piccadilly wouldn't just be limited to use of one depot because there were trains in use whenever the closure started and ended.

I suspect the turning capacity of Kings Cross is what actually limited the frequency.

 

[Sunil_P]

The Tube has been in decline ever since the Deep Level Lines were bored at a much narrower diameter than the main line loading gauge.

 

[yorkie]

The Tube has been in decline ever since the Deep Level Lines were bored at a much narrower diameter than the main line loading gauge.

The tube is worse now than 1890? Okay....

 

[thomalex]

The Tube has been in decline ever since the Deep Level Lines were bored at a much narrower diameter than the main line loading gauge.

I’m sorry what?

 

[Busaholic]

Given TfL have been busy installing entirely superfluous little Superloop roundels on bus stops, even at one where buses don’t even stop, I don’t exactly think they’re as short of cash as they make out.

https://twitter.com/diamondgeezer/status/1679098909543608320?s=20

It's both annoying and mostly pointless, but it'll be a relatively piffling amount of money in the TfL scheme of things.

 

[MikeWh]

The Tube has been in decline ever since the Deep Level Lines were bored at a much narrower diameter than the main line loading gauge.

What a completely ridiculous and nonsensical thing to say.

 

[Daniel]

BTW, the Night tube runs on Fri/Sat and Sat/Sun, so the Piccadilly wouldn't just be limited to use of one depot because there were trains in use whenever the closure started and ended.

Eh?

Are you suggesting that they should have pulled out the stock from the depot which would subsequently be within the closure?

If so that's rather short sighted; you'd have no-where to put the trains away to during an emergency, suspension, disruption etc.

 

[PTR 444]

What a completely ridiculous and nonsensical thing to say.

I think the poster is making a subtle joke by using the word ‘decline’ in a literal sense. Basically meaning the tunnels getting deeper than what had been previously achieved.

 

[AlbertBeale]

I would be surprised if Kings Cross could turn the full Piccadilly service, even if they had the trains!

BTW, the Night tube runs on Fri/Sat and Sat/Sun, so the Piccadilly wouldn't just be limited to use of one depot because there were trains in use whenever the closure started and ended.

I suspect the turning capacity of Kings Cross is what actually limited the frequency.

Yes - the one reversing siding between the tracks north of the station, with the driver having to change ends - obviously has much lower turnround capacity than 2 or more terminating platforms at a terminus. Of course there is also the option of reversing from the northbound KX Piccadilly platform via a crossover - but that would have people leaving and jointing the train from the same platform, and no doubt slow down the turnround even more than using the siding!

 

[bramling]

Yes - the one reversing siding between the tracks north of the station, with the driver having to change ends - obviously has much lower turnround capacity than 2 or more terminating platforms at a terminus. Of course there is also the option of reversing from the northbound KX Piccadilly platform via a crossover - but that would have people leaving and jointing the train from the same platform, and no doubt slow down the turnround even more than using the siding!

There isn’t a siding there, it’s just the trailing crossover (you might be thinking of the Vic Line which does have a siding at King’s Cross?).

Realistically even with stepping back of drivers it’s never going to be possible to turn anything close to a full service there, especially with the likelihood of confused people slowing things down (which nowadays seems to be much more of an issue than a generation ago, despite much more provision of information in the form of announcements and information displays).

They ought to have managed a bit better though. I’d wage a canny fiver that the problem was more to do with driver availability than anything else - look at this weekend’s weather for a start.

 

[thomalex]

In

I think the poster is making a subtle joke by using the word ‘decline’ in a literal sense. Basically meaning the tunnels getting deeper than what had been previously achieved.

Oh very good, they’re smaller in size. That one flew straight over my head

 

[Ianigsy]

Trains were reversing in the platforms at Kings Cross- as much as anything else, I suspect the drop in frequency was needed because nothing could leave Russell Square northbound until there was a platform available.

I was trying to get from Holborn to Alexandra Palace; after waiting about ten minutes for a train I physically couldn’t board, I gave up and went to Finsbury Park via Oxford Circus and then squeezed on to a Class 717 which was heaving because of some sort of rave at the Palace (not the reason I was going there!).

There didn’t seem to be anything like the same trouble early on Sunday afternoon when I was going from Leicester Square to Kings Cross.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I wouldn’t necessarily put things down to the managed decline threatened by Khan. Truth is LU has been deteriorating for some years now, and much of this comes down to poor management and poor leadership.

Likewise that the organisation lost its engineering expertise when the PPP happened, and when you lose a corporate memory stretching back very many years it’s very difficult to get it back, especially when to compound this you have career party politicians sticking their oars in all the time as well.

Covid and its effects for sure haven’t helped, but I’m of the view that this has merely turbocharged a decline that was happening anyway.

However the PPP infracos (Metronet and Tube Lines) did both end up back 'in house' though (i.e. in TfL ownership), but I do appreciate that doesn't equate to things simply returning to the pre-PPP arrangements.

Annual ridership is climbing back up, though of course the WFH / flexi-working shift does mean it's likely there won't be the same level of daily commuting in the future.

 

[Tubeboy]

This is from the timetable notice, an internal document, where the planned service was laid out.



In connection with train arrestor installation at Wood Green and tamping works at Oakwood, the Piccadilly Line train service will be suspended between King’s Cross and Cockfosters from approximately 00.30 on Friday night, 8th September until close of traffic on Sunday, 10th September. On Saturday and Sunday, 9th and 10th September, train services over the remainder of the Piccadilly Line will be revised to operate as follows:- King’s Cross – Heathrow Terminal 5, via Terminals 2 & 3, every 12 minutes. King’s Cross – Heathrow Terminal 4, every 12 minutes. Acton Town – Rayners Lane, every 10 minutes. (extending to Uxbridge every 20 minutes) These services combine to provide a 6 minute service between King’s Cross and Acton Town. Friday and Saturday Night Tube train services will be revised to operate as follows:- King’s Cross – Heathrow Terminal 5, via Terminals 2 & 3, every 12 minutes.

 

[ATrainSpotter]

This was threatened by Sadiq Khan in May last year
After last weeks travel I am wondering if it has actually started to be a thing or if I have been unlucky

Thursday
Destination Harrow
Green Park Rush Hour 18.15 ish No train 5 minutes Absolutely Rammed
Baker St 1820 No trains in Platform 1 or 4 although Trains at 1825 and 1833 in Working Timetable
Train from Aldgate absolutely rammed

Saturday 21.00
Earls Court to Rayners
Only trains to Heathrow every 10 minutes and again rammed
Waited 2O mins at Acton Town
As the line was closed beyond Kings cross one would expact more trains not less

No, the trains being rammed is normal. Especially on a Thursday.

The Tube has been in decline ever since the Deep Level Lines were bored at a much narrower diameter than the main line loading gauge.

Complete and utter tripe

I think the poster is making a subtle joke by using the word ‘decline’ in a literal sense. Basically meaning the tunnels getting deeper than what had been previously achieved.

Sadly I think it wasn't a joke tbh

 

[AlbertBeale]

There isn’t a siding there, it’s just the trailing crossover (you might be thinking of the Vic Line which does have a siding at King’s Cross?).

Realistically even with stepping back of drivers it’s never going to be possible to turn anything close to a full service there, especially with the likelihood of confused people slowing things down (which nowadays seems to be much more of an issue than a generation ago, despite much more provision of information in the form of announcements and information displays).

They ought to have managed a bit better though. I’d wage a canny fiver that the problem was more to do with driver availability than anything else - look at this weekend’s weather for a start.

Yes - of course - sorry. You're right - I was thinking of the (not commonly used these days, I think) reversing siding on the Vic. On the Piccadilly, there's only the option of reversing from the N/B platform.

So it does seem that the (obviously inadequate) service was all that could be achieved under the circumstances.

 

[Joe Paxton]

I think the poster is making a subtle joke by using the word ‘decline’ in a literal sense. Basically meaning the tunnels getting deeper than what had been previously achieved.

Sadly I think it wasn't a joke tbh

I certainly read Sunil_P's post (#11) as a joke!

 

[bramling]

However the PPP infracos (Metronet and Tube Lines) did both end up back 'in house' though (i.e. in TfL ownership), but I do appreciate that doesn't equate to things simply returning to the pre-PPP arrangements.

The latter is essentially the problem. Dump off most of the engineering expertise and spend a few years treating that expertise as contractors, then try and get it back. Whilst at the same time LU had essentially restyled itself as a "people company". The result is a rather empty vessel with a big vacuum in the middle, where knowledge and expertise isn't welcomed in leadership positions because it's seen as a threat to those who entered during those few years when the company was the aforementioned "people company". I don't think the culture has fully recovered, and if anything it's still heading the wrong way in parts.

To be fair, LU and LT had always suffered from an element of unwelcome political interference, but it's worse than ever now.

 

[Basil Jet]

Eh?

Are you suggesting that they should have pulled out the stock from the depot which would subsequently be within the closure?

If so that's rather short sighted; you'd have no-where to put the trains away to during an emergency, suspension, disruption etc.

Thanks, I hadn't given any thought to that!

 

[bluegoblin7]

The biggest issue on the Piccadilly line over the weekend was a shortage of train operators.

Whilst there was a reduced service due to the engineering shut down, this was equally hampered by the ongoing driver shortages affecting most lines. Training of new drivers is at full capacity, and has been for some time, before anyone suggests TfL train more.

 

[miklcct]

Yesterday I was hit by a big gap on the Jubilee.
I changed from Metropolitan at Finchley Road intending to go to Willesden Green in the afternoon peak. A train for West Hampstead came. It terminated at West Hampstead and the next train came only after 10 minutes. It was absolutely rammed. And the display showed 2 more trains within 2 minutes afterwards.

A while ago, I was hit by a 6-minute gap on the Central in Zone 1 during peak hours as well.

The tube has its own right of way. I really don't think bunching should happen in normal service no matter there is a shortage of resource or not.