London underground strike

[westv]

Strikes suspended.

 

[Mojo]

After the "leak" yesterday from Aslef, RMT have confirmed that strikes will take place affecting the evening service on 26 Jan, and all day service 27 Jan, the evening of 15 Feb and all day 16 Feb, and the evening of the 17 Feb and all day 18 Feb.

 

[Kite159]

Oh joy...

More chaos for London, and more lost tourism...

 

[WatcherZero]

Still at the impasse of LU offering:

•Year 1 an average of 2 per cent;
•Years 2 and 3 would remain at RPI or 1 per cent, whichever is greater;
•Year 4 would be RPI plus 0.25 per cent.
•LU will also offer a £500 bonus for all staff on Night Tube lines.
•No existing driver has to work a night shift unless they request to after transition period.
•700 extra staff hired on same pay and conditions to work nights
•£200 transition bonus, no staff have to work more than 5 in 7 and reduced average weekend rostering.
•£500 bonus if Night Tube started before February

And Unions demanding
•4 day working week
•Reduction in working hours to 32 with no reduction in pay
•Night time working bonus available permanently and to staff who work on lines which aren't open at nights
•To receive the rise offered in the deal backdated to last April without having to agree to the deal.

 

[A-driver]

Still at the impasse of LU offering:



•Year 1 an average of 2 per cent;

•Years 2 and 3 would remain at RPI or 1 per cent, whichever is greater;

•Year 4 would be RPI plus 0.25 per cent.

•LU will also offer a £500 bonus for all staff on Night Tube lines.

•No existing driver has to work a night shift unless they request to after transition period.

•700 extra staff hired on same pay and conditions to work nights

•£200 transition bonus, no staff have to work more than 5 in 7 and reduced average weekend rostering.

•£500 bonus if Night Tube started before February



And Unions demanding

•4 day working week

•Reduction in working hours to 32 with no reduction in pay

•Night time working bonus available permanently and to staff who work on lines which aren't open at nights

•To receive the rise offered in the deal backdated to last April without having to agree to the deal.

Why do people always state unions are 'demanding' rather than 'asking for' or 'trying to negotiate'. As soon as someone states a union is 'demanding' something it instantly shows their bias.

 

[Mag_seven]

Let the "Bingo" commence:

"Holding London to ransom"
"Comrade Cash"
"Unrealistic demands"
"Calls for Boris intervene"
"Calls for Corbyn to condemn the action"
"Bullying and intimidation"
"Commuters face strike chaos"
"Union militants"

 

[Mike_0ne]

Why do people always state unions are 'demanding' rather than 'asking for' or 'trying to negotiate'. As soon as someone states a union is 'demanding' something it instantly shows their bias.

I think its from the impression the unions give, this "meet us or else" which instinctively merits the 'demanding' label.

Tbh, it's hard to be on their side when little information is shared to the public about what has kept the unions from agreeing... however the press release from the union was better than usual, hinting at such things that would help the wider public understand the frustration; such terms as "zero hours attitude" and "refusing to meet us since 10th of November" which does come across as pretty bad of TfL.

 

[A-driver]

I think its from the impression the unions give, this "meet us or else" which instinctively merits the 'demanding' label.



Tbh, it's hard to be on their side when little information is shared to the public about what has kept the unions from agreeing... however the press release from the union was better than usual, hinting at such things that would help the wider public understand the frustration; such terms as "zero hours attitude" and "refusing to meet us since 10th of November" which does come across as pretty bad of TfL.

They havnt said "meet us or else". They have asked for a meeting about a huge major alteration to employment contracts which will have a major impact on workers lives. Management have refused. They have tried negotiating with management since last September (2014) when it was advertised publicaly and have been denied any meetings or replies. What else do you suggest they do? When management absolutely refuse to listen what alternative is there than to make a stand by striking? A strongly worded letter?...

 

[ComUtoR]

I think its from the impression the unions give, this "meet us or else" which instinctively merits the 'demanding' label

So if management are making an offer isn't it then right for the union to refuse ?

Or is it not an "offer" ?

 

[ainsworth74]

I think perhaps the key word here is 'impression'. That doesn't mean that the Union are actually doing that only that it might appear to an outsider that they are.

 

[ComUtoR]

But it is still very selective. There are two sides to consider.

 

[exile]

Could someone in the know please state the facts of the case here, then we don't have to rely on the media.

 

[A-driver]

Could someone in the know please state the facts of the case here, then we don't have to rely on the media.

They have, many times. Read this thread through and you will see what has/is happening.

 

[ainsworth74]

But it is still very selective. There are two sides to consider.

Most certainly! Personally I would try and avoid such combative language and potentially divisive terms precisely because there are two sides consider and from this outsiders perspective it's hard to tell who might be 'in the right' as it were (if indeed either of them are) .

 

[ComUtoR]

Could someone in the know please state the facts of the case here, then we don't have to rely on the media.

Mummy and Daddy are having a row. Mummy says one thing and Daddy is making unreasonable demands. As usual the kids are caught in the middle and all their friends have to suffer.
--- old post above --- --- new post below ---

...and from this outsiders perspective it's hard to tell who might be 'in the right' as it were (if indeed either of them are) .

From this outsiders perspective I don't care who is wrong or right. The people involved believe that they are being treated unfairly and the have exercised their right to strike.

What would I do as a Tube Driver? I don't like working nights and if it was in my contract I wouldn't want that to change. Is that right ? Of course it is.

What would I do as Management ? I'd screw every penny and condition I could get. I'd play hard ball and bleed the Drivers dry until strike fatigue sets in and the loss of pay becomes detrimental then I'd force the conditions through anyway. Is that right ? Of course, I have to run business and times are changing so we need to move forward. Recruiting for night staff seems to be more than reasonable.

What would I do as a passenger ? I'd get a bus, work from home, taxi or cycle. Is that right ? Of course, I have no automatic right to public transport and chose to live and work where I do. It is certainly not my place to judge who is in the right.

 

[Mike_0ne]

They havnt said "meet us or else". They have asked for a meeting about a huge major alteration to employment contracts which will have a major impact on workers lives. Management have refused. They have tried negotiating with management since last September (2014) when it was advertised publicaly and have been denied any meetings or replies. What else do you suggest they do? When management absolutely refuse to listen what alternative is there than to make a stand by striking? A strongly worded letter?...

I think getting public opinion, the customers, behind you is a good way to convince management. Issue is, little alternative, as you said. I was just musing at how strikes often lead to such language, and general perception without more information.

 

[A-driver]

I think getting public opinion, the customers, behind you is a good way to convince management. Issue is, little alternative, as you said. I was just musing at how strikes often lead to such language, and general perception without more information.

I disagree about public opinion. No rail strike has ever had public support. It inconveniences people who ironically call the strikers selfish.

The public don't care what the dispute is about, they just want to catch their train to work with no hassle, understandable but no Union PR is ever going to convince someone otherwise.

Public support is not needed and impossible to gain, history proves this.

 

[ainsworth74]

From this outsiders perspective I don't care who is wrong or right. The people involved believe that they are being treated unfairly and the have exercised their right to strike.

What would I do as a Tube Driver? I don't like working nights and if it was in my contract I wouldn't want that to change. Is that right ? Of course it is.

What would I do as Management ? I'd screw every penny and condition I could get. I'd play hard ball and bleed the Drivers dry until strike fatigue sets in and the loss of pay becomes detrimental then I'd force the conditions through anyway. Is that right ? Of course, I have to run business and times are changing so we need to move forward. Recruiting for night staff seems to be more than reasonable.

What would I do as a passenger ? I'd get a bus, work from home, taxi or cycle. Is that right ? Of course, I have no automatic right to public transport and chose to live and work where I do. It is certainly not my place to judge who is in the right.

I agree with absolutely everything there apart from that last sentence. I reserve the right to judge but I don't expect anyone to listen to me whilst I do

Otherwise I judge that to be a most excellent post

 

[westv]

Fortunately it doesn't look like any of these dates will affect me but, as a passenger, I don't really care who is right and who is wrong. I just want the service when it's scheduled to run.

 

[PaxVobiscum]

Fortunately it doesn't look like any of these dates will affect me but, as a passenger, I don't really care who is right and who is wrong. I just want the service when it's scheduled to run.

I just received my two Off Peak Z1-6 Travelcards for February 16th.
Perhaps they might have a curiosity value, but they certainly aren't going to be worth the £26.45 (including postage) that I paid for them. :cry:

Change or cancellation of your Travelcard order

We are unable to modify, exchange or offer refunds and cancellations for this date specific card as once issued to you, we are unable to re-sell this ticket.

No exceptions to the refund conditions will be made where a refund is sought because of transport strikes or other service disruptions.

Thanks for that, TfL.

 

[TheNewNo2]

What I'm a bit fed up about is how the non-driver pay deals are all held up by the driver deals. Apparently terms for JNP staff were agreed months ago, but it got all rolled in to the big Night Tube battle.

 

[Nym]

What I'm a bit fed up about is how the non-driver pay deals are all held up by the driver deals. Apparently terms for JNP staff were agreed months ago, but it got all rolled in to the big Night Tube battle.

Well, we all know who's to blame for wanting to combine the;

- Annual Pay Increase Negotiations
- Night Tube Negotiations and;
- Fit for the Future Stations (FftFS) Negotiations

Into one package.

TfL could have always done the Annual Pay Negotiations in isolation and probably had a much better result, since it would only be the operations grades of LUL affected, non-operational ones wouldn't notice an immediate effect from Night Tube, so, less support from the office based staff.

As it stands, anyone on an LUL contract has now been waiting 9 months for their annual pay increase! There must be a significant drop in support from the Ex. Tube Lines, Ex. Metronet and Former ED sections of LUL for top end management to add on to the ops end of the business.

 

[Mojo]

What I'm a bit fed up about is how the non-driver pay deals are all held up by the driver deals. Apparently terms for JNP staff were agreed months ago, but it got all rolled in to the big Night Tube battle.

The RMT London Calling Blog says that Tube Lines members are to be balloted for industrial action, and that Tube Lines reps rejected the offer, which suggests to me that it has not been agreed.

What do you mean by "driver deals?" Most LU Operational staff are part of the same group. I think this is a good thing because you don't have pay deals like you do at some Tocs where certain groups of people get vastly inferior deals.

 

[ScotGG]

I disagree about public opinion. No rail strike has ever had public support. It inconveniences people who ironically call the strikers selfish.

The public don't care what the dispute is about, they just want to catch their train to work with no hassle, understandable but no Union PR is ever going to convince someone otherwise.

Public support is not needed and impossible to gain, history proves this.

What happens in some nations is barriers are opened. Free travel would please some. Would frustrate some season ticket holders so a trade off there. Obviously means nothing with driver disputes but station staff could do it?

 

[TheNewNo2]

The RMT London Calling Blog says that Tube Lines members are to be balloted for industrial action, and that Tube Lines reps rejected the offer, which suggests to me that it has not been agreed.

What do you mean by "driver deals?" Most LU Operational staff are part of the same group. I think this is a good thing because you don't have pay deals like you do at some Tocs where certain groups of people get vastly inferior deals.

Operational staff deals then. I just mean that the pay for office staff has got thrown into the Night Tube hurricane.

 

[Mojo]

What happens in some nations is barriers are opened. Free travel would please some. Would frustrate some season ticket holders so a trade off there. Obviously means nothing with driver disputes but station staff could do it?

There are a number of problems with station staff leaving the barriers open.

- Open barriers does not equal free travel; Customers are still supposed to buy a ticket or touch their Oyster/CPC
- It would mean that all staff, including Revenue staff, would have to be part of the action as someone could enter at one location but find the barriers closed at the other end, or alternatively could be inspected en route
- At many locations, barriers are a vital part of crowd control and to open them up would be unsafe
- Operating the barriers is part of your job description and in doing so you may be subjected to management action such as being sent home without pay (so you might as well just be on strike!)

 

[A-driver]

What happens in some nations is barriers are opened. Free travel would please some. Would frustrate some season ticket holders so a trade off there. Obviously means nothing with driver disputes but station staff could do it?

As mojo says above. Plus leaving the gates open could lead to disciplinary action as you are arguably sabotaging your employer.

 

[Tetchytyke]

Plus leaving the gates open could lead to disciplinary action as you are arguably sabotaging your employer.

The RMT last time implied that the safe operation of the barriers was in the job description, but preventing fare evasion - rather than waving evaders through the barrier- was not.

 

[Busaholic]

I just received my two Off Peak Z1-6 Travelcards for February 16th.
Perhaps they might have a curiosity value, but they certainly aren't going to be worth the £26.45 (including postage) that I paid for them. :cry:



Thanks for that, TfL.

Could be a case under the Unfair Terms Contract Act 1977?

 

[Mojo]

Operational staff deals then. I just mean that the pay for office staff has got thrown into the Night Tube hurricane.

Most office staff are on TfL contracts, so I wouldn't complain too much!