London Victoria to Sheerness stopping service idea

[NorthKent1989]

Just throwing this out there, but in the future could there be a 2tph stopping service between London Victoria and Sheerness, which would call at the following selected stations: Brixton, Herne Hill,
Penge East, Beckenham Junction, Bromley South, St. Mary's Cray then all stops to Sheerness.

It would boost Penge East & Brixton to 6tph, more importantly for Penge East since its a busy station and often a back up for Sydenham station for a quicker route into Victoria, also creating new TfL links at Beckenham Junction for Trams to Croydon and at Brixton for the Victoria line and a Thameslink connection to SW London at Herne Hill.

Could they introduce such a service like this in the future?

 

[Ianno87]

The two tracks between Brixton and Shortlands are already maxed out with 4 stoppers and 4 fasts. Each stopper already departs right behind one fast and gets to Shortlands just in front of the next fast 15 minutes later.

Plus Sheerness branch has short platforms, I believe. You'd need SDO stock on all trains to not constraint train lengths into London.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The two tracks between Brixton and Shortlands are already maxed out with 4 stoppers and 4 fasts. Each stopper already departs right behind one fast and gets to Shortlands just in front of the next fast 15 minutes later.

Plus Sheerness branch has short platforms, I believe. You'd need SDO stock on all trains to not constraint train lengths into London.

Thanks for the reply.

Still would be nice to see Penge East and Beckenham Junction to gain 6tph to Victoria (I know Beckenham has the extra two an hour
Southern service to London Bridge but its very circuitous and its future is in doubt because of a potential tram extension to Crystal Palace) plus creating extra links between the Kent Coast to TfL interchanges.

 

[Dr Hoo]

I am not clear what the connection is between improving frequencies at stations like Penge East and the Sheerness branch.

At the risk of stating the obvious, direct Sheerness-London services miss out Sittingbourne, which (from my experience as a local railway manager in North Kent) is where the great majority of people want to go.

Although not ideal, local trains on the Penge East line can be regulated/overtaken at Kent House although this isn't much resorted to these days.

 

[30907]

Penge East and Beckenham Junction are stations I use at random offpeak times, and while they are busier than others on the line, I can't see that they justify 6 tph off peak - the stoppers aren't normally overloaded.
Can't comment on the peak traffic, as I last commuted in the days of EPBs!

 

[NorthKent1989]

Penge East and Beckenham Junction are stations I use at random offpeak times, and while they are busier than others on the line, I can't see that they justify 6 tph off peak - the stoppers aren't normally overloaded.
Can't comment on the peak traffic, as I last commuted in the days of EPBs!

Its fairly mixed, I lived in Sydenham Hill until a few years ago the trains off peak were sometimes busy, I do agree that 4tph is more than enough for the line though.

I for one normally don't suggest forcing outer London commuters to travel on basic all stops metro services just because inner London commuters don't want to wait an extra five minutes in the cold, however this was about creating new links ie Rochester to Croydon via Beckenham Junction and the Tramlink or Swanley to Wimbledon or Sutton via Herne Hill and the Thameslink.

Thanks for the responses folks I can see that such a service could cause issues.

 

[Antman]

Its fairly mixed, I lived in Sydenham Hill until a few years ago the trains off peak were sometimes busy, I do agree that 4tph is more than enough for the line though.

I for one normally don't suggest forcing outer London commuters to travel on basic all stops metro services just because inner London commuters don't want to wait an extra five minutes in the cold, however this was about creating new links ie Rochester to Croydon via Beckenham Junction and the Tramlink or Swanley to Wimbledon or Sutton via Herne Hill and the Thameslink.

Thanks for the responses folks I can see that such a service could cause issues.

Good point about the Tramlink connection at Beckenham Junction and ideally another couple of trains an hour could stop there, I'm not sure about Penge East needing anymore though.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Good point about the Tramlink connection at Beckenham Junction and ideally another couple of trains an hour could stop there, I'm not sure about Penge East needing anymore though.

I think Beckenham Junction could do with an extra 2tph also, its a large area and is a relatively good interchange, not just for the tram but the Southern services to other parts of South London, since they're going to make the Dover service more or less all stations up to St. Mary's Cray, is there not enough room on the timetable to add just Beckenham Junction only?

 

[ChiefPlanner]

The original Kent Coast electrification timetable had a lavish service (fast-ish) from Victoria to Sheerness on Sea , did not last very long (as well as a stopper from Sheerness to Dover) ....

Great concept , I really struggle to see how an all stations to London from a very depressed area would add value ..(when there are links to St Pancras and elsewhere) from Sittingbourne)

 

[Kite159]

The commuters of Swale approach of your plan

 

[Antman]

I think Beckenham Junction could do with an extra 2tph also, its a large area and is a relatively good interchange, not just for the tram but the Southern services to other parts of South London, since they're going to make the Dover service more or less all stations up to St. Mary's Cray, is there not enough room on the timetable to add just Beckenham Junction only?

I agree that Beckenham Junction merits a fast service to London, maybe two existing trains could stop there? Trains from Victoria are normally down to a crawl by then anyway having caught up the stopping service to Orpington.

 

[NorthKent1989]

I agree that Beckenham Junction merits a fast service to London, maybe two existing trains could stop there? Trains from Victoria are normally down to a crawl by then anyway having caught up the stopping service to Orpington.

Beckenham used to have fasts until the late 2000s when the Eurostar was diverted, or perhaps it was the big HS1 Timetable change of 2009, but the Ashford service used run fast from Beckenham and the Maidstone East service used to call at Herne Hill only.

I guess if a Dover stopper were behind an Orpington metro, the Orpington Metro could use Platform one at Kent House allowing the Dover train to over take it, it could be done.

I get that Herne Hill will be too full for more trains stopping, due to Thameslink and the flat junctions, but could Brixton be called at? Better to change there for the Victoria line than at Victoria itself since its already full by then.

Yes for those living in the Sheerness area it would probably be best to change at Sittingbourne for HS1 but that's premium though.

 

[Antman]

Beckenham used to have fasts until the late 2000s when the Eurostar was diverted, or perhaps it was the big HS1 Timetable change of 2009, but the Ashford service used run fast from Beckenham and the Maidstone East service used to call at Herne Hill only.

I guess if a Dover stopper were behind an Orpington metro, the Orpington Metro could use Platform one at Kent House allowing the Dover train to over take it, it could be done.

I get that Herne Hill will be too full for more trains stopping, due to Thameslink and the flat junctions, but could Brixton be called at? Better to change there for the Victoria line than at Victoria itself since its already full by then.

Yes for those living in the Sheerness area it would probably be best to change at Sittingbourne for HS1 but that's premium though.

I don't remember any long distance trains stopping at Beckenham Junction, the loops at Kent House are sometimes used but obviously it delays the stopping service.

I don't think there would be any justification in stopping long distance services at Herne Hill or Brixton particularly the latter which has to be one of the worst stations in London?

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Just throwing this out there, but in the future could there be a 2tph stopping service between London Victoria and Sheerness, which would call at the following selected stations: Brixton, Herne Hill,
Penge East, Beckenham Junction, Bromley South, St. Mary's Cray then all stops to Sheerness.

It would boost Penge East & Brixton to 6tph, more importantly for Penge East since its a busy station and often a back up for Sydenham station for a quicker route into Victoria, also creating new TfL links at Beckenham Junction for Trams to Croydon and at Brixton for the Victoria line and a Thameslink connection to SW London at Herne Hill.

Could they introduce such a service like this in the future?

I do recall many moons ago during peak times, 'Slammers' would stop at Herne Hill or Beckenham Junction on their way down to the Coast / Ashford because at that time Eurostar prevented the now quarter-hourly stopping service.

However, it is not beyond the realms of possibility to run a service via Penge East stopping at a few of the stations. Indeed, one might even suggest there is an easy way of making it work which would be to run this sort of service out of Blackfriars, stopping it at the Elephant, Herne Hill, Penge East, Beckenham Junction and Bromley before going down to somewhere like Gillingham/Faversham/Canterbury East every 30 minutes. The way to path the express services would then be for one pair (e.g. the Ramsgates or the Ashfords) to run via Denmark Hill and Catford as it could go down the Atlantic lines and present just ahead of the Thameslink stopper at Crofton Road; and also would take the paths left by the existing Victoria to Dover/Faversham slows.

One final remark would be the use of Sheerness during the day and the Western spur. Most locals who use the trains from Sheppey will go to Sittingbourne because it is a major town for the area e.g. going shopping. From there they can make a plentiful selection of connections whilst if the train went to Gillingham they would pick up a similar number of connections in any event. To be blunt, people would sooner have the Sittingbourne shuttle during the day.

 

[Islineclear3_1]

It's a long time since I travelled to Sheerness by train but really, is it a big enough town to justify direct services to London? It's no big deal changing to Sittingbourne provided there is easy access to the London-bound platform (presume there are lifts between platforms?)

I'm quite happy with the 4tph along the Penge East corridor and don't forget, there are some Thameslink stoppers in the peaks. When I did jury service in London, I had to travel from Beckenham Junction to City Thameslink and was always guaranteed a seat on the Beckenham starters

 

[NorthKent1989]

It's a long time since I travelled to Sheerness by train but really, is it a big enough town to justify direct services to London? It's no big deal changing to Sittingbourne provided there is easy access to the London-bound platform (presume there are lifts between platforms?)

I'm quite happy with the 4tph along the Penge East corridor and don't forget, there are some Thameslink stoppers in the peaks. When I did jury service in London, I had to travel from Beckenham Junction to City Thameslink and was always guaranteed a seat on the Beckenham starters

Yes, true about the Thameslink, though this revert to being a South Eastern service again from this year, Beckenham to Blackfriars only, still very handy, I used this service sometimes years ago.

I do recall many moons ago during peak times, 'Slammers' would stop at Herne Hill or Beckenham Junction on their way down to the Coast / Ashford because at that time Eurostar prevented the now quarter-hourly stopping service.

However, it is not beyond the realms of possibility to run a service via Penge East stopping at a few of the stations. Indeed, one might even suggest there is an easy way of making it work which would be to run this sort of service out of Blackfriars, stopping it at the Elephant, Herne Hill, Penge East, Beckenham Junction and Bromley before going down to somewhere like Gillingham/Faversham/Canterbury East every 30 minutes. The way to path the express services would then be for one pair (e.g. the Ramsgates or the Ashfords) to run via Denmark Hill and Catford as it could go down the Atlantic lines and present just ahead of the Thameslink stopper at Crofton Road; and also would take the paths left by the existing Victoria to Dover/Faversham slows.

One final remark would be the use of Sheerness during the day and the Western spur. Most locals who use the trains from Sheppey will go to Sittingbourne because it is a major town for the area e.g. going shopping. From there they can make a plentiful selection of connections whilst if the train went to Gillingham they would pick up a similar number of connections in any event. To be blunt, people would sooner have the Sittingbourne shuttle during the day.

Yes this could be a possibility running this service from Blackfriars but perhaps as a Thameslink service to Rainham? The Thameslink North Kent service will inevitably cause issues long term, it'll probably be better in the long term to run this via Beckenham Junction? Since the Rainham Thameslink service will be 8 coaches anyway there won't be any issues with the shorter platforms at
Elephant & Castle.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

It will indeed be vastly better in the long term to run the Rainham service as a direct replacement for the Victoria to Gillingham service and route it via Elephant.

I would actually go so far as to say the best way to use the available infrastructure at Herne Hill and to enable the best London-wide connections is for the quarter-hourly Orpington stoppers to go through the Core via Beckenham; as well as the Catford Loop trains.

Sutton Loop services would become Southern and run via Brixton into Victoria every 15 mins so that you could have parallel departures and arrivals on the up and down of trains rather than conflicts. I’m sure also that many in the likes of Sutton, Streatham and Tooting would prefer reliable trains than unreliable buses.

You would also then be able to tighten the fast SE trains as you would buy a couple of crucial minutes with the Stopper waiting to go at Herne Hill not having to follow from Victoria. There’s also the fact that there will be quarter-hourly trains from Peckham Rye to Victoria in the future so connections such as Victoria to Catford, Bellingham, Shortlands, Penge East and Beckenham could all be made every 15 minutes and with same or cross-platform interchanges at Herne Hill and Peckham.

Just throwing that one in there!

 

[4-SUB 4732]

My Thameslink routes would be:

All day
Route 1 Cambridge North to Brighton
Route 2 Peterborough to Brighton
Route 3 Cambridge / North to Rainham
Route 4 Finsbury Park to Ashford International
Route 5 (4tph) Luton to Orpington via Penge East
Route 6 Bedford to Horsham
Route 7 Bedford to East Grinstead

Route 1 trains start/finish at Ely in peaks. Only an hourly Kings Lynn flyer is provided off peak using better stock (eg displaced 379s).

Route 1 and 2 trains combine to create a uniform quarter-hourly path from Hitchin to Three Bridges then different calling patterns south of.

Route 3 trains call at more local stations but at peak times these trains start/terminate at Royston and stock goes to/from Letchworth Sidings. Therefore the Finsbury Park to Ashford in peak extends back to Cambridge and becomes another semi-fast service.

Route 4 trains go down to Ashford so SE don’t need to provide off-peak trains on the Maidstone East line.

Route 5 trains call all stations.

Route 6 and 7 trains call at New Cross Gate off peak and Norwood Jn all day; meaning a standard 15-minutely path from Bedford to East Croydon. East Grinstead only get Victoria trains at peak times so the Selhurst crossover conflicts aren’t amplified all day and the Horsham service would call all shacks Purley to Horsham.

Peak only
Route 8 St Albans to Sevenoaks via Catford (not calling Hendon, Cricklewood and Kentish Town)
Route 9 St Albans to Orpington via Catford (not calling Hendon, Cricklewood and Kentish Town)
Route 10 Bedford to Littlehampton (Express service calling Bedford, Luton, St Albans and St Pancras)
Route 11 Bedford to Gatwick Airport (Fast service calling Bedford, Flitwick, Leagrave, Luton, Harpenden, St Pancras)

Off peak Catford Loop services start/terminate Blackfriars Bay platforms; Route 10 peak direction services Bedford to Three Bridges and West Hampstead / Finsbury Park to Littlehampton. Route 11 peak direction services Bedford to Gatwick Airport and West Hampstead / Finsbury Park to Littlehampton.

Route 10 services to call south of Croydon at Horley, Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill, Hassocks, Hove and relevant stations to Littlehampton; Route 11 services south of Croydon to stop at Purley, Coulsdon South, Redhill, Gatwick Airport.

 

[NorthKent1989]

The original Kent Coast electrification timetable had a lavish service (fast-ish) from Victoria to Sheerness on Sea , did not last very long (as well as a stopper from Sheerness to Dover) ....

Great concept , I really struggle to see how an all stations to London from a very depressed area would add value ..(when there are links to St Pancras and elsewhere) from Sittingbourne)

A fast to Sheerness that must've been a strange service to have ridden on to

 

[NorthKent1989]

It will indeed be vastly better in the long term to run the Rainham service as a direct replacement for the Victoria to Gillingham service and route it via Elephant.

I would actually go so far as to say the best way to use the available infrastructure at Herne Hill and to enable the best London-wide connections is for the quarter-hourly Orpington stoppers to go through the Core via Beckenham; as well as the Catford Loop trains.

Sutton Loop services would become Southern and run via Brixton into Victoria every 15 mins so that you could have parallel departures and arrivals on the up and down of trains rather than conflicts. I’m sure also that many in the likes of Sutton, Streatham and Tooting would prefer reliable trains than unreliable buses.

You would also then be able to tighten the fast SE trains as you would buy a couple of crucial minutes with the Stopper waiting to go at Herne Hill not having to follow from Victoria. There’s also the fact that there will be quarter-hourly trains from Peckham Rye to Victoria in the future so connections such as Victoria to Catford, Bellingham, Shortlands, Penge East and Beckenham could all be made every 15 minutes and with same or cross-platform interchanges at Herne Hill and Peckham.

Just throwing that one in there!

Yes something has to be done with Herne Hill and the SW London loop, while I agree with shifting the Penge East line to Thameslink using platforms 3 & 4 at Herne Hill and the SW London loop runs as a Southern service into Victoria, people will kick and scream at losing Victoria, I take it the Bromley fasts would still run into Victoria? Still a good idea though.

My Thameslink routes would be:

All day
Route 1 Cambridge North to Brighton
Route 2 Peterborough to Brighton
Route 3 Cambridge / North to Rainham
Route 4 Finsbury Park to Ashford International
Route 5 (4tph) Luton to Orpington via Penge East
Route 6 Bedford to Horsham
Route 7 Bedford to East Grinstead

Route 1 trains start/finish at Ely in peaks. Only an hourly Kings Lynn flyer is provided off peak using better stock (eg displaced 379s).

Route 1 and 2 trains combine to create a uniform quarter-hourly path from Hitchin to Three Bridges then different calling patterns south of.

Route 3 trains call at more local stations but at peak times these trains start/terminate at Royston and stock goes to/from Letchworth Sidings. Therefore the Finsbury Park to Ashford in peak extends back to Cambridge and becomes another semi-fast service.

Route 4 trains go down to Ashford so SE don’t need to provide off-peak trains on the Maidstone East line.

Route 5 trains call all stations.

Route 6 and 7 trains call at New Cross Gate off peak and Norwood Jn all day; meaning a standard 15-minutely path from Bedford to East Croydon. East Grinstead only get Victoria trains at peak times so the Selhurst crossover conflicts aren’t amplified all day and the Horsham service would call all shacks Purley to Horsham.

Peak only
Route 8 St Albans to Sevenoaks via Catford (not calling Hendon, Cricklewood and Kentish Town)
Route 9 St Albans to Orpington via Catford (not calling Hendon, Cricklewood and Kentish Town)
Route 10 Bedford to Littlehampton (Express service calling Bedford, Luton, St Albans and St Pancras)
Route 11 Bedford to Gatwick Airport (Fast service calling Bedford, Flitwick, Leagrave, Luton, Harpenden, St Pancras)

Off peak Catford Loop services start/terminate Blackfriars Bay platforms; Route 10 peak direction services Bedford to Three Bridges and West Hampstead / Finsbury Park to Littlehampton. Route 11 peak direction services Bedford to Gatwick Airport and West Hampstead / Finsbury Park to Littlehampton.

Route 10 services to call south of Croydon at Horley, Haywards Heath, Burgess Hill, Hassocks, Hove and relevant stations to Littlehampton; Route 11 services south of Croydon to stop at Purley, Coulsdon South, Redhill, Gatwick Airport.

Good ideas, I for one am perplexed as to why GTR didn't take up the opportunity to update Elephant & Castle station, trains could still run, but the station could remain closed, it just seems that the routes into E&C core entrance is the ugly stepsister to the glossy
London Bridge core entrance, E&C is an inner London area with vast development and regeneration.

I'm pretty certain that the Cambridge to Maidstone East service has been extended to Ashford Intl all day now, calling only at Bearstead, if the service happens since its been pushed to 2019.

I don't see the current proposed Thameslink services lasting as it slows down existing services, creating conflict movements and is overly ambitious about 24tph.

 

[4-SUB 4732]

Admittedly a bit quick and knocked up but... It gives an idea as to how it could all kick off.

 

[urpert]

As recently as 2005 there was an hourly semi-fast from the Maidstone East bay (generally a standard Networker) which called all stations to Otford then Swanley, (iirc) St Mary Cray, Bromley South, Beckenham Jn, Herne Hill and Victoria.

As an almost daily user of this line I would say the Kent House loops are used on average once every couple of weeks, generally to recover from disruption. However Shortlands is well used as a regulating point to allow up fasts to overtake.

 

[Antman]

As recently as 2005 there was an hourly semi-fast from the Maidstone East bay (generally a standard Networker) which called all stations to Otford then Swanley, (iirc) St Mary Cray, Bromley South, Beckenham Jn, Herne Hill and Victoria.

As an almost daily user of this line I would say the Kent House loops are used on average once every couple of weeks, generally to recover from disruption. However Shortlands is well used as a regulating point to allow up fasts to overtake.

Yes I use that line quite a lot and Kent House loops seem to only be used occasionally. Often a down fast will pass the stopper to Orpington that it has caught up with at Shortlands or an up stopper will be held to let a fast go through.

 

[NorthKent1989]

Admittedly a bit quick and knocked up but... It gives an idea as to how it could all kick off.

My Luton to Rainham service would call at the projected stops north of the river then to Herne Hill fast to Penge East then Beckenham Junction, this would omit West Dulwich, Sydenham Hill and Kent House only

Or if there is an absolute need to run more services via London Bridge, then I would have the TL10 service replace the Tunbridge Wells stoppers, fast from LB to Orpington then all stops

 

[Jim Jehosofat]

Way back in my distant past there used to be a 0652 Sheerness to Cannon Street via Dartford and fast wrom Woolwich Arsenal to Cannon Street, arriving, I think, at 0809 and headcode 95. There also used to be a very early Saturday train from Dover to Charing Cross via the same route, headcode 88.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

I had to smile when I saw this thread.

In the 1960s & 1970s I had family connections on the Isle of Sheppey. (They moved there in 1950) So I recall fondly going down there. Originally we travelled on the slow trains from Waterloo East (Junction), it was easier for us when I was young, to go that way as our trains to London came in to Waterloo, so we just went up the old slope across the taxi road, rather than having to go up and down the stairs at Clapham Junction. These slow trains went via Deptford, Greenwich, Woolwich etc calling at I think, most stations to Dartford, then all stations from there. We then changed at Sittingbourne. I think the train continued to Ramsgate and may have perhaps gone right through to Dover, but I am not 100% sure about that. They seemed to be made up of several very old electric 2 coach units, non corridor, coupled together in Green then Blue livery, one of the 2 coaches was half first class and half 2nd class with a wc in the centre accessible from 1st and 2nd. They had a funny "Singing" sort of noise. Later there was a blue and white 4 car corridor unit on the London end of the train. Which I thought was very posh and tried to travel in that part of the train.

When I was a bit older, late 1960s and 1970s, we went from Victoria on a through semi fast train that split at Swanley, one part going to Maidstone East and the other to Sheerness. I think this then changed going to Sheerness without the Maidstone portion.

I also am sure in the later 1970s when I was working, going to Sheerness direct from Cannon Street and also from Holborn Viaduct, the only time I ever traveled from that Station.

When my parents first used to go there after work in the 1950s, they said they went by steam trains all the way from Victoria changing at Chatham and again at Sittingbourne.

They also remembered when it went electric which was I think in the late 1950s and the speed of the new trains frightened some of the passengers.

Infact the stations at Kemsley, Swale Queenborough and Sheerness all have very long platforms. That were lengthened during electrification. I think they could take 10-12 coaches. I have been to Sheerness in recent years on diesel and Steam charters and the whole train got the platform ok.

 

[30907]

They seemed to be made up of several very old electric 2 coach units, non corridor, coupled together in Green then Blue livery, one of the 2 coaches was half first class and half 2nd class with a wc in the centre accessible from 1st and 2nd.
When I was a bit older, late 1960s and 1970s, we went from Victoria on a through semi fast train that split at Swanley, one part going to Maidstone East and the other to Sheerness. I think this then changed going to Sheerness without the Maidstone portion.

I also am sure in the later 1970s when I was working, going to Sheerness direct from Cannon Street and also from Holborn Viaduct, the only time I ever traveled from that Station.

The 2-HAPs were only built from 1956 - outdated, perhaps, but not old.

 

[STEVIEBOY1]

The 2-HAPs were only built from 1956 - outdated, perhaps, but not old.

Oh I thought they were much older than that. They must have been well used. I supposed they seemed older as I was very young at the time.