Long term implications of suspending ticket checks?

[Class195]

TPE Penalty fates from Monday.

Will there be enough revenue patrols to enforce them?

 

[yorkie]

Will there be enough revenue patrols to enforce them?

I'm not sure what you're asking.

 

[stj]

Maybe all stations should have ticket machines and even on board trains. I find it a nuisance to have to queue up and pay when no one bothered to come round to check tickets even though the train has just picked up from a station with no facility to buy a ticket .This has always been the case not just now.

 

[DelW]

I had the pleasure of living and working in Munich Germany in the early 2000's where I used a combination of their S-Bahn and U-Bahn to get to work and back. There they don't have a barrier or check tickets when getting on or off, but rely on an honesty policy. But once in a while plain-clothed ticket inspectors descend on to train on mass and check every single person. If you don't have the correct ticket they will arrest detain you and take you to court. There are no if or but they come down really hard on offenders.

My experience of this when the 6 or 7 times it happened to me over the 4 years living there, most people had tickets because they knew about the policy and were basically honest. I did see someone being arrested for fare evasion on one occasion... they didn't look happy!

I've always been under the impression that evasion is low in Germany, despite the absence of barriers. So I was quite surprised by the results of a revenue check I saw about 18 months ago, travelling from central Munich to the airport on S-bahn. Two pretty tough looking guys in almost paramilitary black uniforms came through checking, and only two of the five passengers in my bay of 8 seats had correct tickets.

The guy sat opposite me, a middle aged business type with laptop, had quite a forceful exchange of views with one of the RPIs, too fast for me to follow, but it ended up with him getting out a bank card and paying up, as did a couple sitting across the aisle.

The three of them then spent the rest of the journey chuntering away to each other about having been caught out. At the airport, business guy got off without his umbrella, which I had to pick up and chase after him to return. He didn't even bother to thank me

 

[Fokx]

Maybe all stations should have ticket machines and even on board trains.I find it a nuisance to have to queue up and pay when no one bothered to come round to check tickets even though the train has just picked up from a station with no facility to buy a ticket.This has always been the case not just now.

You have the ability to do exactly that with mobile ticketing.

The main job of a conductor isn’t to sell tickets that passengers should/could have bought by other means

 

[Mcr Warrior]

You have the ability to do exactly that with mobile ticketing.

Is this ever allowed once you've boarded the train and it's departed?

 

[Class195]

I'm not sure what you're asking.

How will they enforce the penalty fares?

They'll need revenue protection at every station to catch everyone.

 

[Starmill]

How will they enforce the penalty fares?



They'll need revenue prlotection at every station to catch everyone.

Why would they have them at 'every' station?

You have the ability to do exactly that with mobile ticketing.

The main job of a conductor isn’t to sell tickets that passengers should/could have bought by other means

This does not make sense. This is literally a part of their role, in most cases.

 

[Fokx]

This does not make sense. This is literally a part of their role, in most cases.

It’s the smallest part of the role.

The priority is the safe and timely running and dispatching of the train.

 

[Starmill]

It’s the smallest part of the role.

The priority is the safe and timely running and dispatching of the train.

I'm glad you agree that you were, in almost all cases, wrong to describe it as you did. There are few non-commercial guards.

 

[Starmill]

Doesn't seem quite right to be able to hastily buy an e-ticket if you see ticket inspectors working through the train you're on.

The NRCoT already says you should have your ticket before travelling. As it stands provided the ticket is valid when inspected there's no mechanism to issue penalty fares to anyone doing this. If a valid ticket is offered up when asked, no offence has been committed under the Railway Bylaws. There would be no debt outstanding if the ticket they'd bought 60 seconds before inspection was genuinely valid. This leaves the company with only one option, to try to prove beyond doubt that the person who did this intended to avoid paying the fare (or the even higher bar of them intending to commit fraud). Without an admission, or some strong evidence going beyond just the time contained within the ticket, this would be effectively impossible (of course if you're the train company your resources are probably much greater than an individual's, so you can always try bullying them into settling using the threat of charges which are just nonsense).

It would also not be readily checked. The timestamps would need to be 100% accurate and the scan software would need to compare the departure time of the station where someone boarded with it. Finally, we'd want to avoid the situation that can occur in Switzerland where an eticket was bought a couple of minutes after the booked departure time when a train was running late and someone turned up to catch it who would have missed it if it'd been on time. There are a number of accounts of this, resulting in a Penalty Fare (or something similar happening where the ticket machine isn't working, and someone bought an eticket on the train as a result, and got charged a Penalty Fare for doing so - if they'd presented no ticket they wouldn't have been charged any more than the fare due!).

 

[Mcr Warrior]

Thanks for clarifying Starmill.

 

[Unstoppable]

I've definitely noticed these 'chancers' on my route. Do we have a date for Scotland or England when Conductors will be allowed to check or sell tickets on board?

 

[Class195]

Out of interest, how far are Northern going in bringing back their stored pacers to address this ? Are there still 144's at Kieghley that could be used.

Yes, there's about 12 still stabled there.

I've definitely noticed these 'chancers' on my route. Do we have a date for Scotland or England when Conductors will be allowed to check or sell tickets on board?

Northern had their revenue team on my train tonight checking and issuing tickets.

Refreshing to see them catch five people in my carriage alone.

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, there's about 12 still stabled there.

Well, they can't complain about a lack of rolling stock while they're there.

 

[Class195]

Well, they can't complain about a lack of rolling stock while they're there.

Agreed.

Surely they are better strengthening services than sat rusting away?

I saw a two-car 158 heading for Sheffield in Leeds earlier and it had to leave people behind because it was deemed full.

 

[yorksrob]

Agreed.

Surely they are better strengthening services than sat rusting away?

I saw a two-car 158 heading for Sheffield in Leeds earlier and it had to leave people behind because it was deemed full.

The worry is that they're not being used because it costs money.

What time was this Sheffield service ? I've not seen a crowded train since a carriage load of youths turned up at Wigan heading for the beach !

 

[Unstoppable]

Yes, there's about 12 still stabled there.




Northern had their revenue team on my train tonight checking and issuing tickets.

Refreshing to see them catch five people in my carriage alone.

Out of curiosity. If Conductors are not allowed to check and sell tickets during COVID19 then what makes revenue inspectors different?

 

[LowLevel]

Out of curiosity. If Conductors are not allowed to check and sell tickets during COVID19 then what makes revenue inspectors different?

I suppose if your conductors/drivers get a wave of COVID through them and all have to isolate you're not going to be operating any trains.

In any case at our place they want a staged return to guards undertaking revenue duties very much sooner rather than later, apparently.

 

[Starmill]

I suppose it's relevant who exactly it was, too. Was it the so-called Loss Prevention Officers, contractors usually working at stations, or one of the ticket examiners? Only guards and ticket examiners worked on trains before, and that had carried through from many previous franchises.

 

[Class195]

I suppose it's relevant who exactly it was, too. Was it the so-called Loss Prevention Officers, contractors usually working at stations, or one of the ticket examiners? Only guards and ticket examiners worked on trains before, and that had carried through from many previous franchises.

It was two members of Northern staff in yellow hi-viz jackets, one had the portable ticket machine with card reader for card payments and a bum bag for cash payments.

This was on a four carriage northern train to Leeds from Preston.

I'm guessing here but based on I'd seen one of them at Shipley doing the same on the platform then they were Northern staff.

It clearly worked and caught a few out to my delight.

 

[Class195]

Out of curiosity. If Conductors are not allowed to check and sell tickets during COVID19 then what makes revenue inspectors different?

Good question.

 

[Class195]

The worry is that they're not being used because it costs money.

What time was this Sheffield service ? I've not seen a crowded train since a carriage load of youths turned up at Wigan heading for the beach !

It would have been the 16:48 departure.

It was odd that a two-car 158 goes to Sheffield, but a three-car 158 went to Knottingley.

 

[yorksrob]

It would have been the 16:48 departure.

It was odd that a two-car 158 goes to Sheffield, but a three-car 158 went to Knottingley.

Well the knottingley train was traditionally longer than the Hallam stopper, but that was in a timetable with three Hallam trains versus two Knottingleys. Now we have 1 Hallam, and that is reduced in length from the height of the Pandemic. I note from Rail that Northern do have a dispensation to use the 144's at Keighley. It sounds as though it's about time they used them here.

 

[Unstoppable]

Ticket check by conductor on board 14:21 Newcastle - Edinburgh service today before I got off at Morpeth. New rules for TPE guards?

 

[Chriso]

I was in South East London yesterday. Gates were working at London Bridge, Woolwich Arsenal, Dartford and Lewisham but no rpi’s just gateline assistants and unsurprisingly no onboard checks

 

[WatcherZero]

Northern has gone crazy for ticket checking last couple of weeks. Staff at Wallgate on multiple occasions audibly being ordered by their superiors to check every ticket rather than wave people through, Daisy Hill a station that only gets a quarter of a million passengers a year has had all day ticket checking for the last two weeks, today 4 people! checking tickets in the evening, I bet its not even getting that many passengers an hour at the moment.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

Full ticket barrier control at SAC and Harpenden today - loadings up to about 6 / 7 per train off peak on and off . Better. Phenomenal way to go yet.

 

[Class195]

Ticket check by conductor on board 14:21 Newcastle - Edinburgh service today before I got off at Morpeth. New rules for TPE guards?

TPE also checking tickets on both the Cleethorpes and Scarborough services.

Good to see the Newcastle to Edinburgh route is following suit.

 

[Camden]

Can I ask, how are they checking tickets from a practical point of view?

In particular, are they handling people's tickets?

Potential cross-contamination of thousands of items, immediately handled by passengers (who shortly afterwards put their hands near their faces to remove masks) is a very real risk that cannot come second to a company's bottom line.