Long term implications of suspending ticket checks?

[ForTheLoveOf]

Do Merseyrail have penalty fares?

Yes, they were introduced 11 years ago in 2009.

 

[Class195]

Yes, they were introduced 11 years ago in 2009.

Seems strange then that these revenue protection officials are happy to let those caught without paying to go to the ticket office and purchase one.

Maybe it’s deemed less than going through the penalty fare process.

 

[ForTheLoveOf]

Seems strange then that these revenue protection officials are happy to let those caught without paying to go to the ticket office and purchase one.

Maybe it’s deemed less than going through the penalty fare process.

Penalty Fares have been around for much longer in some areas and yet "just" making someone buy a ticket is still common practice in many non-DOO areas of the country. It's mainly DOO-land (i.e. the southeast) where ticketless travel tends to be dealt with using Penalty Fares as a default.

There are certain areas of most cities where you really wouldn't want to start getting in the locals' (and especially gangs') hair. So making passengers do anything more than buying the ticket they should have bought in the first place could be considered a risk to staff safety in such places.

 

[Gems]

We really are against a rock and a hard place with this one. The railway like many other industries are not, and never have been, designed to deal with a pandemic. The railway seems to be two month behind everyone else out there when it comes to dealing with any form of issue. So lets look at a few realities of all this.

Yes we have created a fare dodgers charter, but how big the problem is we don't know. Even when you identify ticketless travel it is not that straightforward. I encountered three young lads boarding the train yesterday. A sixth sense kicked in and I went to check their tickets. Technically I am breaking the rules on social distancing, we are leaving ourselves open to the accusation that we are encroaching in their space. (Think I am joking, I'm not) but I went to find out anyway. So three young lads, no tickets, but money in their hands. I can't sell them tickets we are not allowed at the moment. Are they really acting in a criminal sense? They offered to pay. I told them in future use the app or TVM, now they know they can get away with it, they wont.

This situation is astonishing. We as a society are trying to protect everybody and will end up protecting nobody as a result. You must look at human psychology as well to get the picture. When you make face coverings mandatory, staff notice face coverings or lack of, rather than tickets. It's the same in shops, people are getting more upset about somebody walking the aisles of Tesco's without a rag on their face rather than noticing the shoplifter stealing all around them. It's the way the human mind works, and we have created this mass diversion of what didn't matter a month ago into something that is now consuming the minds of the many.

I don't have the answer, we still have a crisis out there, and what one persons is happy to go back to another isn't. So far I think the railway has got off lightly with this pandemic. I have a feeling this won't last. But my view is this. We have absolutely no right as train guards to expect casual agency staff with few rights to put themselves in the firing line dealing with revenue, whilst the RMT demands different rules for it's members. I am sure many here will disagree with this view, but I find it cowardly, and it sticks in my throat. Even handing out free face masks is better than doing nothing, even that is frowned upon.

 

[Ianigsy]

Ticket checks at Shipley and Keighley today. A good number caught with no tickets.

I went from Menston to Skipton yesterday, walked along the canal to Gargrave and then train back to Shipley and Menston. I noticed the checkers at Shipley although the emphasis seemed to be on people entering the system- I was wondering whether Eid might have made a dent in the availability of the usual contract security.

Three people looking after the (open) barrier at Skipton, although that number might be necessary to deal with the charter passengers.

No opportunity to buy at Gargrave and no checks on the journey back. I'd bought a Menston-Gargrave return as the bus alternative from Skipton would have stopped by the time I was on my way back.

 

[Class195]

I went from Menston to Skipton yesterday, walked along the canal to Gargrave and then train back to Shipley and Menston. I noticed the checkers at Shipley although the emphasis seemed to be on people entering the system- I was wondering whether Eid might have made a dent in the availability of the usual contract security.

Three people looking after the (open) barrier at Skipton, although that number might be necessary to deal with the charter passengers.

No opportunity to buy at Gargrave and no checks on the journey back. I'd bought a Menston-Gargrave return as the bus alternative from Skipton would have stopped by the time I was on my way back.

I must confess to subscribing to your view that Eid played a part in the usual contract security not being present.

The Northern revenue protection at Shipley always seem to be based between platforms three and five. Probably because it is next to the ticket office so if anyone doesn’t have a ticket then the BTP/Northern Revenue staff can take them inside to pay.

 

[LowLevel]

Travelled St Albans -St Pancras - Faversham and return today (part HS1) today with tight ticket barrier checks on all occasions , as well as on observed passing stations such as Strood.

Well worth doing , as all trains were very decently loaded with passengers enjoying the service and the weather.(yes the mask wearing was tightly reiterated by all staff) - a good experience. Other friends travelled Winchmore Hill - London Victoria - Faversham and said much the same.

I get the impression that staff are happy to see people out and about on trains and stations. Certainly the ones I make the effort to talk (and thank) to.

I'm loving seeing people again. It's been a totally miserable, boring few months to be a guard. We lost most of our passengers, our colleagues in catering (we have no idea if the contractors will ever return), the revenue protection teams we work with and so on. If I wanted to be locked in a box a few feet long by a few feet wide I would be a train driver earning more money by now.

I've taken a novel for me approach to managing the matter of passenger interactions.

Bar the first week or two we have been encouraged to patrol the train without hanging around. Now we are being told we can check tickets if we want but not sell them and can provide the usual customer service.

I thus have taken to checking tickets on board long distance trains - most people are travelling with valid tickets.

I've taken to doing platform checks on local services or on board checks before departure. I'm into the thousands of pounds gained already of people booted back to the booking office or paying on their phones.

Standing at the platform gate at somewhere like Liverpool Lime Street on your own is surprisingly effective at improving the percentage of people who hold tickets.

 

[ChiefPlanner]

I'm loving seeing people again. It's been a totally miserable, boring few months to be a guard. We lost most of our passengers, our colleagues in catering (we have no idea if the contractors will ever return), the revenue protection teams we work with and so on. If I wanted to be locked in a box a few feet long by a few feet wide I would be a train driver earning more money by now.

I've taken a novel for me approach to managing the matter of passenger interactions.

Bar the first week or two we have been encouraged to patrol the train without hanging around. Now we are being told we can check tickets if we want but not sell them and can provide the usual customer service.

I thus have taken to checking tickets on board long distance trains - most people are travelling with valid tickets.

I've taken to doing platform checks on local services or on board checks before departure. I'm into the thousands of pounds gained already of people booted back to the booking office or paying on their phones.

Standing at the platform gate at somewhere like Liverpool Lime Street on your own is surprisingly effective at improving the percentage of people who hold tickets.

Well done and thank you.

Noticeably more people travelling (and yes the weather is nice) , and good to see public interaction , people with bikes and luggage , bunches of flowers etc , masked up but getting out and about.

Of course , there are some on this forum who would yearn for another lockdown and board the windows and doors up.

 

[WatcherZero]

At Leeds they have split the barrier in half. Looking towards the platforms, left for entry, right for exit. Only every other barrier is in use to aid social distancing, and staff are now bang in the middle behind a plastic screen.

Theyve done similar at Wallgate at the start of last week, put a barrier up between the front doors and ticket gateline and one way signs and a couple of plastic screens to screen staff from people using the stairs. Why after all this time they are doing it now I dont know. Problem with the Wallgate barriers has always been that its a tight space and the master control panel is right behind one of the gatelines so if a staff member is operating it hes blocking one of the lanes. Also staff have a tendency to just hang around in front of the gates, leaning on them, etc... rather than the to the clear space at the sides where the screens have been put up, so you have to push past them often.

Essentially the protective measures have constricted the passenger flow and pushed people closer together.

I still live in hope that one day people might bring up their ticket on their mobile phone before they reach the gateline rather than only even getting their phones out of their pockets when they are standing in front of the gate holding up everyone else.

 

[M60lad]

Whats the situation on WCML at the moment regarding ticket checks? I dont think Avanti Trains are checking tickets at the moment meaning you coud get a free ride from say Manchester to maybe London something I wouldnt even condone or try.

 

[Class195]

Whats the situation on WCML at the moment regarding ticket checks? I dont think Avanti Trains are checking tickets at the moment meaning you coud get a free ride from say Manchester to maybe London something I wouldnt even condone or try.

You would have to navigate the gate line staff at Piccadilly.

 

[Fokx]

Whats the situation on WCML at the moment regarding ticket checks? I dont think Avanti Trains are checking tickets at the moment meaning you coud get a free ride from say Manchester to maybe London something I wouldnt even condone or try.

Trains are being checked at Piccadilly and London Euston (when boarding)

 

[Class195]

Revenue protection at Leeds on the bridge for the first time along with BTP and sniffer dogs.

We all had to queue to the right and have our tickets checked before passing the sniffer dogs.

Whilst in the queue I noticed a couple of people hurriedly purchase tickets off the Northern app.

Could the revenue protection check the date and time of purchase and also when the ticket was activated and put 2 + 2 together and realise said passenger didn't have a ticket before seeing the revenue staff and penalty fare them?

Or would that be deemed harsh?

 

[_toommm_]

Revenue protection at Leeds on the bridge for the first time along with BTP and sniffer dogs.

We all had to queue to the right and have our tickets checked before passing the sniffer dogs.

Whilst in the queue I noticed a couple of people hurriedly purchase tickets off the Northern app.

Could the revenue protection check the date and time of purchase and also when the ticket was activated and put 2 + 2 together and realise said passenger didn't have a ticket before seeing the revenue staff and penalty fare them?

Or would that be deemed harsh?

If they suspected you bought it in the queue or post-boarding, then definitely. At that point, assuming you’d come from a station with ticket buying facilities, you’d have failed to buy before boarding thus leaving yourself liable to a Penalty Fare.

 

[Starmill]

No, not least because almost no tickets need to be activated any more.

 

[Starmill]

If they suspected you bought it in the queue or post-boarding, then definitely. At that point, assuming you’d come from a station with ticket buying facilities, you’d have failed to buy before boarding thus leaving yourself liable to a Penalty Fare.

Actually, this is very far from clear. If you presented a valid ticket for the journey you made at the point at which you were asked, you would not be guilty of a byelaw offence, and if you'd paid for the whole journey accurately there would be no unpaid debt. Unless I'm very much mistaken there's nothing in the Penalty Fare rules that would allow one to be issued in such circumstances either.

So what the operator would need to do is prove beyond a doubt that the traveller had attempted to avoid paying, and have the necessary evidence to support that. Possible, but not easy. Although of course how much that actually matters given that we've seen cases where they've tried to coerce people into settling for ridiculous sums is uncertain.

 

[_toommm_]

Actually, this is very far from clear. If you presented a valid ticket for the journey you made at the point at which you were asked, you would not be guilty of a byelaw offence, and if you'd paid for the whole journey accurately there would be no unpaid debt. Unless I'm very much mistaken there's nothing in the Penalty Fare rules that would allow one to be issued in such circumstances either.

So what the operator would need to do is prove beyond a doubt that the traveller had attempted to avoid paying, and have the necessary evidence to support that. Possible, but not easy. Although of course how much that actually matters given that we've seen cases where they've tried to coerce people into settling for ridiculous sums is uncertain.

Interesting. I thought I’d read about a case on here where someone was caught out doing this exact thing.

 

[Class195]

Interesting. I thought I’d read about a case on here where someone was caught out doing this exact thing.

I read the same and because the tickets say when bought and activated it would be easy to ascertain that a ticket has been purchased because they realised that they are now going to have their ticket checked.

I've not seen this happen yet but I did see two honest fare dodgers (can we call them this?) stopped at Leeds on the main concourse last week and asked to provide their tickets to which they replied they hadn’t got any as they were going from New Pudsey to York and changing trains.

They were quickly taken to the side and the penalty fare process started as New Pudsey has a ticket office.

 

[Starmill]

I read the same and because the tickets say when bought and activated it would be easy to ascertain that a ticket has been purchased because they realised that they are now going to have their ticket checked.

As I've already pointed out this isn't quite correct. The record of the time kept in the 2D code is not reliable, and almost all tickets aren't 'activated'. The regulatory framework also doesn't exist for this type of enforcement. If it did, we'd want to avoid the issues in the Swiss model which sometimes crop up, such as the case of a journalist who bought a ticket for a late running train after it's booked departure time and was given a large penalty fare.

 

[2L70]

Sounds like TPE staff will have the Star mobile back out on Saturday. It’s safe to do so in their opinion.

 

[yorkie]

If anyone wishes to discuss ticket checking on journeys, please use the following thread:

https://www.railforums.co.uk/threads/have-your-tickets-been-checked-on-your-journey.207462/

 

[johntea]

Just had my first ticket inspection on a Northern service post lockdown so maybe they’re up and running again

How do they deal with the guard ticket machines / mobile phones / whatever they use these days as presumably they are used by several different guards in a day, a set of alcohol wipes in the cab?!

 

[PennineSuperb]

Just had my first ticket inspection on a Northern service post lockdown so maybe they’re up and running again

How do they deal with the guard ticket machines / mobile phones / whatever they use these days as presumably they are used by several different guards in a day, a set of alcohol wipes in the cab?!

I did tickets for the first time yesterday. I was surprised by the amount of people who did actually have one. There was one issue but nothing major, just a bit of a chancer.

In response to your question, our machines are issued individually at the begining of our shift. We sign that out then sign it back in at the end of our job. It is disinfected by the back office staff between train crew change over. We have also been given lots of wipes and sanitiser to wipe over machines mid shift etc..

 

[Chriso]

Great to hear Northern guards are now out and about doing tickets again

 

[Class195]

I can also report a full ticket check on my Northern train this morning.

Great news.

 

[fishquinn]

Great to hear Northern guards are now out and about doing tickets again

Back to normal then, changing from not leaving their cab due to coronavirus to not leaving the cab because they don't want to

(not saying this applies to all northern guards ofc, just a bit of a joke based on my normal experience)

 

[Class195]

Back to normal then, changing from not leaving their cab due to coronavirus to not leaving the cab because they don't want to

(not saying this applies to all northern guards ofc, just a bit of a joke based on my normal experience)

Is there a rule not to leave the cab on an evening?

When I think about it, I can’t say I’ve ever seen a conductor do a ticket check on a Northern service after 8pm.

That’s a serious observation by the way.

 

[js1000]

No simple answer for this. Although Network Rail and the train operating companies are fairly relaxed about ticketless travel at the moment as the government are underwriting the cost of running the railway at the moment.

Spending money on group of revenue inspectors, in some cases these groups have more staff than passengers makes no sense. Also, I don't fare evasion rate is anywhere near as high as people think it is.

The priority for them is getting bums back on seats and showing it is safe to travel on trains in the same way Eat Out to Help Out scheme is simply to get people more comfortable in going out again.

Clearly they don't want to officially say "free travel on trains" as that gives carte blanche in the future to do so after the pandemic has settled down.

By the end of the year we'll be back to normal in terms of onboard ticket checks, barriers, penalty fares etc.

 

[RPI]

Although no on train checks yet, we've been deployed to gatelines at GWR

 

[RPI]

Spending money on group of revenue inspectors, in some cases these groups have more staff than passengers makes no sense. Also, I don't fare evasion rate is anywhere near as high as people think it is.

But they're not "spending money" on revenue teams, I'm as RPI and other than the odd gateline cover my employer has been paying me to stay at home since early April, since June we've been issuing Penalty Fares/MG11's at gatelines