Long Term Ownership of an Electric Car

[trebor79]

The MGs have a decent range and a decent price. I wouldn't say they satisfy the other two, they are a bit cheap-and-nasty, certainly the SUV. I did look but quickly decided I'd rather a Kia e-Niro by a long way.

Agree about the SUV, but the MG5 looks pretty good, though @reddragon has confirmed my suspicion the infotainment is a bit rubbish. The screen also looks pretty low resolution from the photos I've seen (but hard to tell). I need to test drive one.

My next car preference was the e-Niro, so I was so disappointed with the high price, long wait and tiny boot. The MG5 won in each of those categories.

The Kia and Hyundai are a little pricey but clearly trying to use the EV transition to move up into a more premium segment. Clever strategy.

 

[reddragon]

Agree about the SUV, but the MG5 looks pretty good, though @reddragon has confirmed my suspicion the infotainment is a bit rubbish. The screen also looks pretty low resolution from the photos I've seen (but hard to tell). I need to test drive one.

The infotainment lags a lot, otherwise OK

 

[Bald Rick]

25% of new car registrations in the UK are now fully electric and take-up is accelerating.

15%, but your point still stands.
(Up from 6% this time last year).

 

[jon0844]

Tesla build quality bisnt the best. 2 colleagues have them as company cars and both had to have work almost immediately for a variety of faults. I had a sweaty day riding around in my bosses with the aircon stuck at 23 degrees set point on a sunny day. Nice.
Shut lines still not wonderful on them.
Lots of quirks. Like the sat nav zooms out when approaching a junction, so all the detail disappears and you can't actually see which exit from the roundabout you need. Does the opposite of what it should.
Less said about the autopilot the better.

I wouldn't have one, even if I could afford one. Much better cars out there and some of them are giving Tesla a run for their money on range now too.

Yes, I think Tesla's are highly rated and seem to have attracted a cult status. People on social media often do a 'Daily Mail comments page' trick of messing up the spelling of the words Elon, Musk and Tesla for fear of being piled on by fanboys.

That said, without them we probably wouldn't have the traditional car makers taking EVs as seriously as they now are. Obviously legislation is playing a part, but regardless of the build quality, software issues and a rather bland design inside and out, they are the first thing everyone thinks of when you think of an electric vehicle.

Sure the trucks are vapourware and the Cybertruck is delayed and also likely to enjoy relatively few sales (except for a few crazy yanks from the southern states) but the cars have changed things for the better. Of course level 5 autonomous driving isn't happening anytime soon (as already said above; even 10 years is optimistic).

Personally, buy something from Hyundai or Kia in preference.. although the new cars from Ford and Mercedes look quite interesting.

I must say that I am a little worried about the subscription models that many car makers are looking at. Everything these days is about signing people up for subscriptions that don't get cancelled. You can get an entire car with all servicing covered and just keep paying (changing car when you want and adjusting the monthly amount) but I'm not so much talking about that but the other things that Tesla started and others are copying; namely paying to enable features in software and then, if you sell the car on, the feature is locked again.

I do think that's rather cheeky, but is likely to become the norm as so many features will be software based and can easily be controlled by a car that is fully connected. Even if we all save money on buying and running an EV, there are going to be numerous 'upsell' opportunities on vehicles, or services that were once free once you bought them having ongoing charges.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Tesla are very much the Apple of cars - they did do some pioneering work (Apple basically to all intents and purposes drove early smartphone development*) but are now very much a "fanboi" cult. And I say that as an iPhone user. Very much like iPhones, Teslas are very good cars but are quite highly priced for what they are.

* Early Android phones were very basic, and Windows phones were fairly poorly integrated and mostly for business users. Palm also did one and it was awful, I had one for a bit.

 

[jon0844]

While things can start going wrong before 5 years another reason is the cost of routine maintenance due at 4 - 5 years and the choice to put the money into a newer car instead.

I paid for the work on my last car with a view of keeping until 10 years old although I changed just under 9 years, which as things turned out was well timed. My current car had an OTR price of £16,500 at January 2019. The production run was ending and relatively unpopular in the manufacturers range so probably deals to be had. Come December 2019 with 11,000 miles recorded I paid the franchised dealer £9,500. I sold my car to a local used trader rather than p/ex.

My usual annual mileage is 7,500 - 8,000 made up of 6,000 on commuting and local trips with the balance visiting friends & relatives, days out and annual holiday. However the current mileage of the car is only approaching 19,000 due to Covid resulting in much less leisure travel and furlough from work.

In two years time I have to make a choice
Option 1
Pay out £400+ for cambelt replacement, ~£150 for 2 year breakdown & recovery as much less than 2 x 1 year, £500 for 4 tyres, regular service £200 and MOT £50. Then keep the car 4 - 5 years.

Option 2
Put £1250+ towards another car.

I hope within 3 years to retire. Overall my annual mileage should fall but be mostly longer journeys for days out, short breaks and holidays. Given this I would choose a different car to be in for individual longer journeys. I will have some funds from my pension lump sum. However I certainly will not pay out ~£30,000 for a new EV. The price of a 1 - 2 year old EV and the realistic lifespan are unknowns.

At 10 years old / 60,000 miles my current car ought still to be very useable even if only worth £500. Hence an average capital cost of £1,000 per year.

If a 2 year old EV was £20,000 then effectively worthless at 10 years old because the batteries are life expired so unusable that is an average capital cost of £2,500 per year, which is way above my retirement budgeting. Even if maintenance is less that will only offset a small proportion of the much higher capital cost.

In terms of fuel the actual energy cost per mile for petrol / diesel and standard domestic rate electricity is similar. The total cost difference is because ~60% of the pump price for petrol & diesel is duty & VAT. As the number of EV's on the road increase the government can not afford the income loss so will recoup it in some way, most likely road pricing.

I do not know anyone with a pure EV and just one person with a hybrid which is a Toyota Yaris.

This video looks at the issue of whether to keep your existing car, or to invest in an EV. It's American but still pretty relevant.

I don't think it's fair to assume batteries will be life expired at 10 years old. It will depend on charge cycles, how the car manages charging and protects them from extreme temperatures, and of course the quality of the batteries. They hold less of a charge as time goes on - they don't literally expire.

If you could pick up a cheap 5 or 6 year old car, that wasn't driven much (someone who had one as a second car for a school run or short trip to work/shops) then you may well have 70-80% of the power remaining in the battery. Sure, it cuts the range but might still be absolutely fine for your needs.

Tesla are very much the Apple of cars - they did do some pioneering work (Apple basically to all intents and purposes drove early smartphone development*) but are now very much a "fanboi" cult. And I say that as an iPhone user. Very much like iPhones, Teslas are very good cars but are quite highly priced for what they are.

* Early Android phones were very basic, and Windows phones were fairly poorly integrated and mostly for business users. Palm also did one and it was awful, I had one for a bit.

Apple made smartphones consumer friendly. The first version of iOS was crap. No cut and paste, no Bluetooth, no app store.. but it had a slick UI.

Overnight, Symbian, Windows Mobile, PalmOS and others all looked awful.

Plus, Apple didn't invent app stores - but when they launched theirs, they knew that people didn't want to pay £9.99 for a calendar app (common place on Microsoft and Symbian stores) but would pay 69p or 99p for an app. Small amounts that people had no issue with paying.

The rest is history.

 

[The Ham]

While things can start going wrong before 5 years another reason is the cost of routine maintenance due at 4 - 5 years and the choice to put the money into a newer car instead.

I paid for the work on my last car with a view of keeping until 10 years old although I changed just under 9 years, which as things turned out was well timed. My current car had an OTR price of £16,500 at January 2019. The production run was ending and relatively unpopular in the manufacturers range so probably deals to be had. Come December 2019 with 11,000 miles recorded I paid the franchised dealer £9,500. I sold my car to a local used trader rather than p/ex.

My usual annual mileage is 7,500 - 8,000 made up of 6,000 on commuting and local trips with the balance visiting friends & relatives, days out and annual holiday. However the current mileage of the car is only approaching 19,000 due to Covid resulting in much less leisure travel and furlough from work.

In two years time I have to make a choice
Option 1
Pay out £400+ for cambelt replacement, ~£150 for 2 year breakdown & recovery as much less than 2 x 1 year, £500 for 4 tyres, regular service £200 and MOT £50. Then keep the car 4 - 5 years.

Option 2
Put £1250+ towards another car.

I hope within 3 years to retire. Overall my annual mileage should fall but be mostly longer journeys for days out, short breaks and holidays. Given this I would choose a different car to be in for individual longer journeys. I will have some funds from my pension lump sum. However I certainly will not pay out ~£30,000 for a new EV. The price of a 1 - 2 year old EV and the realistic lifespan are unknowns.

At 10 years old / 60,000 miles my current car ought still to be very useable even if only worth £500. Hence an average capital cost of £1,000 per year.

If a 2 year old EV was £20,000 then effectively worthless at 10 years old because the batteries are life expired so unusable that is an average capital cost of £2,500 per year, which is way above my retirement budgeting. Even if maintenance is less that will only offset a small proportion of the much higher capital cost.

In terms of fuel the actual energy cost per mile for petrol / diesel and standard domestic rate electricity is similar. The total cost difference is because ~60% of the pump price for petrol & diesel is duty & VAT. As the number of EV's on the road increase the government can not afford the income loss so will recoup it in some way, most likely road pricing.

I do not know anyone with a pure EV and just one person with a hybrid which is a Toyota Yaris.

Whilst your annual milage won't fall to 2,000 miles it's likely to fall quite a bit without needing to go to work, is it really worth retaining your own car?

As the average car ownership costs over £3,000 per year with anything much less than £1,500 being fairly hard to achieve (without fairly limited milage). Not impossible, but with insurance, servicing, MOT, tyre replacement and VED easily costing around the £500 mark and £500 on fuel getting you about 4,000 miles that's not a lot for perchance costs/other repairs. Even if you don't often pay for parking it's fairly easy to pay £50/year in parking charges without really thinking about it.

For instance, do you have a car club car locally, which could allow you to use a car when you needed it but not pay for it when you didn't.

Likewise, not acceptable for some, an e-bike gets you about 30 miles without having to very much effort and wouldn't be all that much slower than driving when going a couple of miles (and for some could save time depending on how easy it is to park near where they're going to).

Longer distance travel could mean car hire and/or train.

Obviously there's always going to be those who just want to have a car whilst others for whom it's needed, however many just have a car as that's what they've always done and pay more for it than if they used taxis for their travel.

 

[Bald Rick]

I don't think it's fair to assume batteries will be life expired at 10 years old.

Correct. Plenty of 7-8 year old Teslas running around with lots of battery life left.

Whilst your annual milage won't fall to 2,000 miles it's likely to fall quite a bit without needing to go to work, is it really worth retaining your own car?

Probably not, but lots of people still do - including me. I’ve averaged less than 2,000 miles a year for 5 years in our second car, costs about £800 a year to keep (tax / insurance / maintenance). I paid for it a long time ago and consider it zero value.

 

[NoRoute]

Obviously there's always going to be those who just want to have a car whilst others for whom it's needed, however many just have a car as that's what they've always done and pay more for it than if they used taxis for their travel.

Whenever I see comments like this I tend to assume the poster must live either in London, the London conurbation or one of the large UK cities with decent public transport.

There's vast areas of the UK where a car is simply a necessity because the public transport is so very limited. Bus routes are constrained, frequencies are poor and they having limited running hours. Train connectivity is poor, because of the lack of rail routes between local towns, typically great for getting to London, no good for getting to that town a few miles East or West, or on a different line. Journeys take massively longer than direct in the car, to the point that many are simply not viable. Taxis are not really an option because they are costly if used frequently, they need to be booked and they aren't really suitable for longer distance journeys for leisure trips, or days out.

If I lived in London I'd probably give up my car because I could do everything without it, but I don't and so it's essential.

 

[reddragon]

I live in a village so I have a car.

If I wanted a bus, there's 3 a day Monday to Saturday in one direction. Any roadworks, it gets cancelled.

If I wanted a taxi, I have to book it days in advance and then if the driver is free and the job is worth his while. I could book one from the nearest town 15 miles away but his clock starts ticking when he starts that trip not when he gets to me.

If I wanted to use a bike, I have an unlit twisty 60mph road to use and a 100m incline home. SO I need an e-bke but in the nearby large village there is no bike parking at all.

I'm stuck with the car.

 

[The Ham]

Whenever I see comments like this I tend to assume the poster must live either in London, the London conurbation or one of the large UK cities with decent public transport.

There's vast areas of the UK where a car is simply a necessity because the public transport is so very limited. Bus routes are constrained, frequencies are poor and they having limited running hours. Train connectivity is poor, because of the lack of rail routes between local towns, typically great for getting to London, no good for getting to that town a few miles East or West, or on a different line. Journeys take massively longer than direct in the car, to the point that many are simply not viable. Taxis are not really an option because they are costly if used frequently, they need to be booked and they aren't really suitable for longer distance journeys for leisure trips, or days out.

If I lived in London I'd probably give up my car because I could do everything without it, but I don't and so it's essential.

I don't live in London, never have done, currently I live in a village with circa 9,000 people (hence the comment about IF there's a car club car, as I'm aware that there's many places which don't have them).

 

[stuu]

Whenever I see comments like this I tend to assume the poster must live either in London, the London conurbation or one of the large UK cities with decent public transport.

There's vast areas of the UK where a car is simply a necessity because the public transport is so very limited. Bus routes are constrained, frequencies are poor and they having limited running hours. Train connectivity is poor, because of the lack of rail routes between local towns, typically great for getting to London, no good for getting to that town a few miles East or West, or on a different line. Journeys take massively longer than direct in the car, to the point that many are simply not viable. Taxis are not really an option because they are costly if used frequently, they need to be booked and they aren't really suitable for longer distance journeys for leisure trips, or days out.

If I lived in London I'd probably give up my car because I could do everything without it, but I don't and so it's essential.

I live in Taunton in Somerset. I don't own a car any more and haven't for nearly four years. It helps that I live 200m from a supermarket and the rest of the town centre, the station is 10 minutes walk and I used to commute by train anyway, until my employer decided we weren't needed in the office any more in February 2020.... Not having a car is annoying from time to time, especially not being able to just drive off to the hills or the seaside, but on the other hand I don't have to fork out any money at all and I can hire a car for £35 a day just up the road, if needed. It can easily be done, it depends on your personal circumstances as much as where you live

 

[david1212]

.....

Fuel currently costs 50p/litre before tax, so 5p/unit the same as night rate electric. An EV is 3x as efficient as an ICE so it costs a third to drive on that untaxed basis.

My EV costs me 1.25p/mile on energy. Road pricing will be added to ALL road vehicles on top of current taxes.

Indeed at night rate electricity the energy cost per mile of an EV will be far less than an ICE. I was making the comparison with domestic day rate electricity before the recent price increases. I don't know what the commercial rates were a few months ago but last week our MD stated it was now 30p / unit. What the rates at car parks, shopping centres, hotels etc never mind motorway and major road service areas might be in a few years time is unknown.

As to road pricing, which I think would be introduced starting at a low rate and increasing, the duty on petrol & diesel should be reduced so the typical cost per mile remains similar.

This video looks at the issue of whether to keep your existing car, or to invest in an EV. It's American but still pretty relevant.

I don't think it's fair to assume batteries will be life expired at 10 years old. It will depend on charge cycles, how the car manages charging and protects them from extreme temperatures, and of course the quality of the batteries. They hold less of a charge as time goes on - they don't literally expire.

If you could pick up a cheap 5 or 6 year old car, that wasn't driven much (someone who had one as a second car for a school run or short trip to work/shops) then you may well have 70-80% of the power remaining in the battery. Sure, it cuts the range but might still be absolutely fine for your needs.

I'll watch that video when a little more time.

As to an older EV and range once retired I'm expecting to do more longer journeys. Six factors that are uncertain now for 10+ years ahead are EV new cost, depreciation, range when new, range after 5 then 10 years / 50000 then 100000 miles, battery reliability and cost of charging away from home compared to at home.

Only time will tell how reliable batteries are and while sudden failure maybe rare there will be a probability of both failed cells and very low capacity cells at less than the typical age, number of miles, number and type of charge cycles. I will be surprised if batteries that are mostly fast charged do not deteriorate faster than those mostly charged at an overnight rate. Similarly those normally not discharged more than 50% against those regularly discharged to 80%. Should a failure occur then against the value of the car is replacement of failed / very low capacity cells economic ?

Whilst your annual milage won't fall to 2,000 miles it's likely to fall quite a bit without needing to go to work, is it really worth retaining your own car?

As the average car ownership costs over £3,000 per year with anything much less than £1,500 being fairly hard to achieve (without fairly limited milage). Not impossible, but with insurance, servicing, MOT, tyre replacement and VED easily costing around the £500 mark and £500 on fuel getting you about 4,000 miles that's not a lot for perchance costs/other repairs. Even if you don't often pay for parking it's fairly easy to pay £50/year in parking charges without really thinking about it.

For instance, do you have a car club car locally, which could allow you to use a car when you needed it but not pay for it when you didn't.

Likewise, not acceptable for some, an e-bike gets you about 30 miles without having to very much effort and wouldn't be all that much slower than driving when going a couple of miles (and for some could save time depending on how easy it is to park near where they're going to).

Longer distance travel could mean car hire and/or train.

Obviously there's always going to be those who just want to have a car whilst others for whom it's needed, however many just have a car as that's what they've always done and pay more for it than if they used taxis for their travel.

For budgeting I'm working on 5000 miles a year. As you rightly say if e.g. only 3500 miles per year the cost per mile increases and over a year other options could indeed cost less.

My point was my budgeting works with my current annual average of all fixed and variable costs plus given I said I would choose a different car to now over the period of ownership an average annual capital cost of absolute maximum £1500 but ideally less not least as that leaves some funds for perchance costs/other repairs.
If the total average annual cost of an EV is significantly more then my budgeting doesn't work. To cover I would have to cut the number of day out and holidays, which will be the majority of the miles.

 

[reddragon]

I'll watch that video when a little more time.

As to an older EV and range once retired I'm expecting to do more longer journeys. Six factors that are uncertain now for 10+ years ahead are EV new cost, depreciation, range when new, range after 5 then 10 years / 50000 then 100000 miles, battery reliability and cost of charging away from home compared to at home.

Only time will tell how reliable batteries are and while sudden failure maybe rare there will be a probability of both failed cells and very low capacity cells at less than the typical age, number of miles, number and type of charge cycles. I will be surprised if batteries that are mostly fast charged do not deteriorate faster than those mostly charged at an overnight rate. Similarly those normally not discharged more than 50% against those regularly discharged to 80%. Should a failure occur then against the value of the car is replacement of failed / very low capacity cells economic ?

Manufacturers are offering 7y / 100k mile warranties because they know they'll be fine.

Testing covers the expected life of the car and early high miler users prove it.

There's a lot more to worry about on a new ICE than an EV

For budgeting I'm working on 5000 miles a year. As you rightly say if e.g. only 3500 miles per year the cost per mile increases and over a year other options could indeed cost less.

My point was my budgeting works with my current annual average of all fixed and variable costs plus given I said I would choose a different car to now over the period of ownership an average annual capital cost of absolute maximum £1500 but ideally less not least as that leaves some funds for perchance costs/other repairs.
If the total average annual cost of an EV is significantly more then my budgeting doesn't work. To cover I would have to cut the number of day out and holidays, which will be the majority of the miles.

Higher usage drivers will benefit from EVs long before retirees doing occasional long trips.

I foresee a switch to many people renting cars when they need them or renting out their own cars.

 

[jon0844]

There are businesses starting up now with the sole intention of working on EV batteries, which means that in the future a bad cell can be replaced - and batteries reconditioned without having to be entirely recycled (and of course, when they eventually do need to be recycled, almost all of the materials can be reclaimed).

 

[37424]

So I ordered my electric car before the current fuel and petrol crisis emerged, I have had my car for a few weeks now looked at few things and made a few observations.

Charging stations as I have stated previously totally inadequate, went to Whitby yesterday no fast chargers in Whitby despite being a popular tourist destination, nearest fast chargers are Malton, Middlesbrough and Scarborough has one fast charger at a Lidl. Whitby has has a slow charger at a Lidl which is someway out of the centre but who wants to spend all day at a Lidl unless your desperate for charge.

Cost: People are looking to move to electric cars with the prospect of cheaper running costs and cheaper fuel cost in particular however the current fuel crises may be putting a different perspective in things.

So Petrol has gone up as a result of the fuel shortage but I wouldn't say massively average is supposed to be around £1.40 per litre at the moment although you can get for about £1.38 where I live.

So previously I had a Clio Self Charging Hybrid quite easily capable of averaging 60mpg so lets take a look at 260 mile day trip I did the other week

At £1.40 per litre that would cost £27.52 for the 260 mile trip.

Public Electric chargers seem to vary quite a bit in price but the price appears to be on the up and I suspect the days of free public chargers in England at least are coming to an end especially any free fast chargers, as for slow chargers unless you are desperate for charge or they are your destination such as a Hotel you might be staying at they are as much use as a chocolate teapot.

So there are 2 Engie fast chargers near me which were put in with co-operation of the council I believe. These have been free for the past 2 years but from the 29th of October will be merged with the Geniepoint network and charged at 41p per KW. I also used a Geniepoint charger in Kidderminster recently which charged me 30p per KW, but they will also be 41p going forward.

I have a home charger installed which overnight should be 5p per KW although my supplier seems to be dragging their feet setting it up, and that will last until March or until my supplier goes bust which ever is the sooner, then hell knows what it will be after that.

So anyway lets take my 260 mile trip, practically range of my car without getting too much of a twitchy bum is about 150 miles. efficiency of my car is around 4 miles per KW. so for the first 150 miles at 5p per KW that's about £1.87 cheap enough I guess at the moment but if I do 110 miles at 41p per KW that £11.27 giving a total cost of £13.14, so that still significantly cheaper that the hybrid car but perhaps not as much as you might think. If on the other hand you carn't have a home charger and you went the whole way at 41p per KW then that's £26.65 barely cheaper than the hybrid.

Yes the electric will have cheaper maintenance costs but on the other hand the hybrid can do the trip on one tank of fuel and is less hassle, Obviously that a specific example and if you do lots of short trips on your cheap home rate then it will be substancially cheaper, but for people doing a lot more longer trips even with a longer range EV your probably better off sticking with a hybrid or even the dreaded Diesel.

Of the public chargers I have used so far, Instavolt seem the most straight forward and the most reliable, Engie/Geniepoint chargers seem a bit temperamental, and the cooling fans in them sound as though they are about to take off when they are fast charge, BP Pulse plain unreliable and the app is slow and utterly dire, using them in guest mode is ok when they work, ecotricity I have only used once that that one worked ok.

 

[reddragon]

So I ordered my electric car before the current fuel and petrol crisis emerged, I have had my car for a few weeks now looked at few things and made a few observations.

Charging stations as I have stated previously totally inadequate, went to Whitby yesterday no fast chargers in Whitby despite being a popular tourist destination, nearest fast chargers are Malton, Middlesbrough and Scarborough has one fast charger at a Lidl. Whitby has has a slow charger at a Lidl which is someway out of the centre but who wants to spend all day at a Lidl unless your desperate for charge.

Cost People are looking to move to electric cars with the prospect of cheaper running costs and cheaper fuel cost in particular however the current fuel crises may be putting a different perspective in things.

So Petrol has gone up as a result of the fuel shortage but I wouldn't say massively average is supposed to be around £1.40 per litre at the moment although you can get for about £1.38 where I live.

So previously I had a Clio Self Charging Hybrid quite easily capable of averaging 60mpg so lets take a look at 260 mile day trip I did the other week

At £1.40 per gallon that would cost £27.52 for the 260 mile trip.

Public Electric chargers seem to vary quite a bit in price but the price appears to be on the up and I suspect the days of free public chargers in England at least are coming to an end especially any free fast chargers, as for slow chargers unless you are desperate for charge or they are your destination such as a Hotel you might be staying at they are as much use as a chocolate teapot.

So there are 2 Engie fast chargers near me which were put in with co-operation of the council I believe. These have been free for the past 2 years but from the 29th of October will be merged with the Geniepoint network and charged at 41p per KW. I also used a Geniepoint charger in Kidderminster recently which charged me 30p per KW, but they will also be 41p going forward.

I have a home charger installed which overnight should be 5p per KW although my supplier seems to be dragging their feet setting it up, and that will last until March or until my supplier goes bust which ever is the sooner, then hell knows what it will be after that.

So anyway lets take my 260 mile trip, practically range of my car without getting too much of a twitchy bum is about 150 miles. efficiency of my car is around 4 miles per KW. so for the first 150 miles at 5p per KW that's about £1.87 cheap enough I guess at the moment but if I do 110 miles at 41p per KW that £11.27 giving a total cost of £13.14, so that still significantly cheaper that the hybrid car but perhaps not as much as you might think. If on the other hand you carn't have a home charger and you went the whole way at 41p per KW then that's £26.65 barely cheaper than the hybrid.

Yes the electric will have cheaper maintenance costs but on the other hand the hybrid can do the trip on one tank of fuel and is less hassle, Obviously that a specific example and if you do lots of short trips on your cheap home rate then it will be substancially cheaper, but for people doing a lot more longer trips even with a longer range EV your probably better off sticking with a hybrid or even the dreaded Diesel.

At the moment, an EV doesn't save money for everyone. For me with solar PV and a 5p/kw home charger summer is free and winter is 1.25p/mile so averaging 0.5p per mile with various free chargers.

Locally the town multi-storey car parks are £2 overnight parking and have free chargers, lots of them.

If you have none of this 45p/kw chargers are costing you up to 50p per unit with losses, and and 4 miles per kw that's 12.5 p/ mile the same as an economical ICE. Therefore your only savings are tax, maintenance & servicing unless you have cheap or free charging available somewhere.

If you live in London where its £12.50 / day ULEZ or an EV that balance changes.

 

[37424]

At the moment, an EV doesn't save money for everyone. For me with solar PV and a 5p/kw home charger summer is free and winter is 1.25p/mile so averaging 0.5p per mile with various free chargers.

Locally the town multi-storey car parks are £2 overnight parking and have free chargers, lots of them.

If you have none of this 45p/kw chargers are costing you up to 50p per unit with losses, and and 4 miles per kw that's 12.5 p/ mile the same as an economical ICE. Therefore your only savings are tax, maintenance & servicing unless you have cheap or free charging available somewhere.

If you live in London where its £12.50 / day ULEZ or an EV that balance changes.

In in many respects that's worrying because that's before the government work out how to get the loss of fuel duty and car tax back on EV's.

 

[reddragon]

In in many respects that's worrying because that's before the government work out how to get the loss of fuel duty and car tax back on EV's.

My primary concern is that with an ICE taxes are fair. Those without free parking have to pay extra to park, the wealthy in huge cars pay more tax

With EVs those wealthy enough to have a drive have very cheap motoring and 5% VAT, those poorer have to pay very high rates with 20% VAT. An agenda here to clear streets of parked cars & cars in cities?

 

[37424]

My primary concern is that with an ICE taxes are fair. Those without free parking have to pay extra to park, the wealthy in huge cars pay more tax

With EVs those wealthy enough to have a drive have very cheap motoring and 5% VAT, those poorer have to pay very high rates with 20% VAT. An agenda here to clear streets of parked cars & cars in cities?

Well yes there is already the divide at present between those properties which have there own private space to charge an EV and those that don't and expect that to start to show up in the cost of properties. The government are altering the rules in April to potentially give more grants to owners of block of flats to put chargers in, but those flats are still going to need to have private car parks with the flats, and if you don't have a flat with your own allocated parking space not sure how that would work, could be a bun fight. While home owners are going to loose the grant I believe so that's another increase in EV costs for some.

 

[jon0844]

Some forward thinking councils are adapting lamp posts to offer EV charging but I have no idea what they'll eventually cost, or the issues mentioned like not being able to reserve a parking place (so you may have park a long way away).

Councils also have to address the issues of the other charging pods offering free parking, and EV owners parking all day for work, and using the spot even if they don't even need to charge - thus stopping others from using them from morning to evening.

There are lots of issues and they need to be looked at now, but I think most issues can be resolved. Sadly prices will go up. An EV will end up being a way to drive a more environmentally friendly vehicle, not to save money. They'll absolutely have to recover the lost revenue from fuel duty.

 

[37424]

Some forward thinking councils are adapting lamp posts to offer EV charging but I have no idea what they'll eventually cost, or the issues mentioned like not being able to reserve a parking place (so you may have park a long way away).

Councils also have to address the issues of the other charging pods offering free parking, and EV owners parking all day for work, and using the spot even if they don't even need to charge - thus stopping others from using them from morning to evening.

There are lots of issues and they need to be looked at now, but I think most issues can be resolved. Sadly prices will go up. An EV will end up being a way to drive a more environmentally friendly vehicle, not to save money. They'll absolutely have to recover the lost revenue from fuel duty.

But if there is no financial incentive then many people will be in no rush to change

 

[reddragon]

But if there is no financial incentive then many people will be in no rush to change

When the cost new of an EV falls below an ICE (internal combustion engine) car, the balance shifts! Early EV batteries were £1200 per kw stores, now they're £100 per kw stored.
EV mass production is bringing down costs whereas ICE costs are going up as things wind down.

 

[jon0844]

But if there is no financial incentive then many people will be in no rush to change

That's the problem. The Government needs to make sure the charging infrastructure is there by 2030 onwards, but will it?

Look how long we had to make buses and trains accessible (or replace them) and we didn't manage that properly either!

I expect the Government will rely mostly on private companies, but this will end up like privatising buses with some places swamped with competing charging stations and other places having nothing.

 

[KeithMcC]

Having had a few months of driving a plug in hybrid, the main issue with charging is the number of different charging systems and apps, some of which work fine and others are an absolute pain (BP Pulse is the worst I have found so far as the app is dire and was completely off line all last weekend).
Then chargers are often out of service (4 out of 12 at our local Sainsbury actually work), or all the working ones are in use. They are also often not in places where you want to spend significant time.
Until this is sorted out then I would be very wary of having a pure electric as my only car - the risk of getting stuck somewhere seems too high and we do long journeys several times a year.
The hybrid at least takes away that worry and, charging as often as I can, it averages somewhere around 120mpg of petrol. Charging is usually at home or at a supermarket (so free for now). Keeping track of comparative costs is very difficult but I get the feeling that anything over 40p/kWh is getting close to using petrol being cheaper.

 

[trebor79]

Was just idly looking at charging options. Done networks charging 64p/kWh! That's ridiculous and more expensive than using petrol.
The companies running super fast chargers have got their pricing the wrong way round. It's cheaper for a slower charge. That means they have to provide more chargers to sell the same amount of electricity for less money.
My next car will be electric, it's just a question of when. But the charging landscape does need consolidating and made more sensible.
Interesting you mentioned BP Pulse. I couldn't get a single one of their chargers to work when I hired an i3 recently.

 

[jon0844]

Heard loads of bad things about BP, so I guess if I get an EV I can avoid their chargers just as I try and avoid their petrol stations for (usually) charging loads more than any other petrol station in the same area.

 

[reddragon]

Instavolt & Gridserve are very reliable & reasonable. Podpoint is fine and the cheapest Avoid Ecotricity & BP. Shell is dodgy too as they fine you for using the charger over 30 mins!

 

[37424]

Heard loads of bad things about BP, so I guess if I get an EV I can avoid their chargers just as I try and avoid their petrol stations for (usually) charging loads more than any other petrol station in

Instavolt & Gridserve are very reliable & reasonable. Podpoint is fine and the cheapest Avoid Ecotricity & BP. Shell is dodgy too as they fine you for using the charger over 30 mins!

I tried two BP chargers over the weekend one didn't work the other one was ok, Instavolt do seem more reliable although I don't find 40p per Kw particularly reasonable even though a lot of them are heading towards that price range now and possibly beyond. On my cars efficiency I work out that to be roughly similar to a car that could do 63 mpg on present petrol prices which considering I had a hybrid which could do close to that isn't great. I think a more reasonable fee is a around the 30p mark.