Long term social distancing: Impact on public life & public transport?

[bramling]

They should give a clear timeframe from the back to work announcement in which to make an assessment and decide how to allocate non-work travel. Not some unspecified time waiting for some mystical group of non-existant workers.

All those people I’ve seen using trains over the last two months (including myself) must have been a figment of my imagination then, just like the hundreds of cars which would normally be occupying the car park at my local station during weekday daytime and which currently aren’t.

A lot unfortunately hinges on the schools situation. It already seems to be the case that even in the best-case scenario school provision is going to minimal between now and July. The relevance of this is that this is no doubt preventing some from going back to work on account of lack of childcare.

 

[111-111-1]

They should give a clear timeframe from the back to work announcement in which to make an assessment and decide how to allocate non-work travel. Not some unspecified time waiting for some mystical group of non-existant workers.

If you look at tv and see what hapend at weekend at tourist spots outdoor that will be same on trains and bus

 

[Bletchleyite]

If you look at tv and see what hapend at weekend at tourist spots outdoor that will be same on trains and bus

Not if compulsory reservations are applied.

 

[bramling]

I spoke to a TPE Guard who said he thought TPE's policy was sensible: they are allowed to check tickets but not compelled to. Are TPE the only TOC that allow their staff to check tickets on board trains? Has anything changed this week?

That policy, if true, is dangerous. Whilst the majority of staff will of course choose not to, there will always be some who will play the hero. How long before someone doing this gets a smack for encroaching upon someone’s 2 metres?

 

[yorksrob]

All those people I’ve seen using trains over the last two months (including myself) must have been a figment of my imagination then, just like the hundreds of cars which would normally be occupying the car park at my local station during weekday daytime and which currently aren’t.

A lot unfortunately hinges on the schools situation. It already seems to be the case that even in the best-case scenario school provision is going to minimal between now and July. The relevance of this is that this is no doubt preventing some from going back to work on account of lack of childcare.

The chances are a lot of them are already working from home, although I'm sure you can hypothesise reasons why a sudden influx might materialise into the future.

Like I say, they should fix a time to review commuters travel patterns in the next couple of weeks, then make a decision.

If you look at tv and see what hapend at weekend at tourist spots outdoor that will be same on trains and bus

I saw reports of some tourist spots that were steady. Not of overcrowding.

 

[CaptainHaddock]

I must admit to getting sick of hearing this constant moaning about public transport. None of us has a God-given right to it, and at the moment it’s - rightly in my view - being focussed on essential journeys, with the intention of supporting the economy back to work. With multiple billions in public funds being haemorrhaged every week on the economy this has to take priority over what is, by definition, non-essential leisure use, and with many things not open the leisure use likely at the moment isn’t the sort which is going to contribute much to the economy.

Once things settle down and we see what trends emerge around how people travel to and from work (as well as other essential engagements) then no doubt they will look at what can be done to accommodate others.

At the moment Boris’s £100bn six-month bank holiday needs to be wrapped up, and public transport needs to be fully focussed on supporting that. We simply cannot have a situation where capacity isn’t there for work journeys, and nor can we have a situation where staff safety is compromised unnecessarily.

We also need to move away from this notion that “the trains are empty so there’s room for leisure use”. Not every train is empty for a start, and it won’t take many leisure journeys before they’re not empty again. Any empty space needs to be utilised for work-related journeys first.

Who's moaning? I'm certainly not so I'm not sure why you've quoted my post. All I'm saying is that whilst commuters take priority, there's plenty of capacity for the handful of leisure travellers that might like to use the trains at the moment so long as they travel off peak. Obviously anyone buying a rail rover and travelling from, say, Scarborough to Whitehaven and back just because they can, wouldn't be welcome but where's the problem with someone in Sheffield enjoying a pleasant afternoon trip to Hathersage (which for those who don't know, is only 15 minutes down the line and has all sorts of pleasant walks)?

Commuter and leisure travel can co-exist, it's not a question of one or the other. Have you any evidence of any commuter being refused travel because the trains are too full?

 

[Bletchleyite]

No, not at the moment. But they won't really know until the week is out.

I can see some easing of this perhaps next week, but we really need to "let it run" as it is first.

 

[bramling]

Who's moaning? I'm certainly not so I'm not sure why you've quoted my post. All I'm saying is that whilst commuters take priority, there's plenty of capacity for the handful of leisure travellers that might like to use the trains at the moment so long as they travel off peak. Obviously anyone buying a rail rover and travelling from, say, Scarborough to Whitehaven and back just because they can, wouldn't be welcome but where's the problem with someone in Sheffield enjoying a pleasant afternoon trip to Hathersage (which for those who don't know, is only 15 minutes down the line and has all sorts of pleasant walks)?

Commuter and leisure travel can co-exist, it's not a question of one or the other. Have you any evidence of any commuter being refused travel because the trains are too full?

Yes, we had it in the weekend before the lockdown - staff late for work because they did not feel they could safely distance.

The point is that there simply isn’t the massive amounts of capacity that you seem to think there is, even off-peak. And how do you arrange it so there isn’t a surge in certain places at certain times?

Even your simply example simply doesn’t stand up to scrutiny. So say these people who fancy a walk turn up at Sheffield, and let’s say they manage to find an empty train as no one else has had the same idea. What happens on the way back if the return train happens to busy? Are they going to be happy to remain at Hathersage until a train turns up which has the space to socially distance, bearing in mind the sparse service and the possibility that the next train may also not have space? How do you think staff will take to this?

As I say, the sooner we get the majority of people back to work the better, then there won’t be this mass surging to leisure spots, which may well then mean there isn’t such concern about scarce capacity being taken up.

 

[westv]

As I say, the sooner we get the majority of people back to work the better

Presumably you mean back to their place of work. 75% have not been furloughed and 44% are working from home.

 

[111-111-1]

Not if compulsory reservations are applied.

If you know the answer on how to police compulsory reservation on every train you will earn enough to retire next month.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Well it looks like there may be a test of whether social distancing on trains is truly practical as early as Wednesday and Thursday this week. The weather forecast for London in particular is for sunshine and temperatures of up to 27 degrees, and although leisure journeys are discouraged, the combination of warm weather and additional trains may tempt some to make non-essential trips into the capital. Possibly.

 

[Carlisle]

I can see some easing of this perhaps next week, but we really need to "let it run" as it is first.

I guess they can afford to kick any decision like that into the long grass until town centres & shopping malls begin to reopen, presumably at the beginning of June

 

[Domh245]

Well it looks like there may be a test of whether social distancing on trains is truly practical as early as Wednesday and Thursday this week. The weather forecast for London in particular is for sunshine and temperatures of up to 27 degrees, and although leisure journeys are discouraged, the combination of warm weather and additional trains may tempt some to make non-essential trips into the capital. Possibly.

Given that nothing of interest is open in London, I think you're far more likely to see people heading out of it rather than going in!

 

[Killingworth]

Every line and station will have its own special circumstances but the Hope Valley stopping service has been largely restored today, together with many TPE and EMR services. It seems they were all almost empty.

It's only 10 minutes walk to Dore & Totley station where I got this photo of the car park - 6 cars for trains, 50% up on last week! One owner stays away all week every week. At the far end the restaurant has closed and is taking the opportunity to add a second storey complete with old railway carriage (sleeper?) to be hoist onto the roof. Watch that space!! The adjacent hairdressers has diversified and is selling plants and garden supplies in the open, both businesses making use of the free station car park. Today's small children will be telling tales to their grandchildren of how they shed their cycle stabilisers having gained confidence here in lockdown 2020!

Ah, trains. The 16.58 Northern arrived on time with 3 of us on the platform. A trainspotter at each end and me in the centre. A 150+156 combination, driver and red hi-viz jacketed male in the first unit. Guard and two passengers in the second, the two passengers in window seats on directly opposite sides of the carriage. I can't imagine a crowded train here for quite some time

Passengers lost are very hard to get back, ever. Where are the hundreds who used to travel now?

1. Some have reconfirmed that the comfort and convenience of their already owned car beats any train, even when they run.
2. Some have had weeks of practice at working from home and are now doing it as routine.
3. Some have lost the jobs they used to travel to.
4. Some don't yet know when or if they'll be getting recalled to their jobs.
5. Leisure users are now terrified of catching something! Very many are responding extremely well to the highly effective marketing not to travel - with the subliminal message that rail travel may indirectly kill you!

 

[CaptainHaddock]

Every line and station will have its own special circumstances but the Hope Valley stopping service has been largely restored today, together with many TPE and EMR services. It seems they were all almost empty.

It's only 10 minutes walk to Dore & Totley station where I got this photo of the car park - 6 cars for trains, 50% up on last week! One owner stays away all week every week. At the far end the restaurant has closed and is taking the opportunity to add a second storey complete with old railway carriage (sleeper?) to be hoist onto the roof. Watch that space!! The adjacent hairdressers has diversified and is selling plants and garden supplies in the open, both businesses making use of the free station car park. Today's small children will be telling tales to their grandchildren of how they shed their cycle stabilisers having gained confidence here in lockdown 2020!

Ah, trains. The 16.58 Northern arrived on time with 3 of us on the platform. A trainspotter at each end and me in the centre. A 150+156 combination, driver and red hi-viz jacketed male in the first unit. Guard and two passengers in the second, the two passengers in window seats on directly opposite sides of the carriage. I can't imagine a crowded train here for quite some time

Passengers lost are very hard to get back, ever. Where are the hundreds who used to travel now?

1. Some have reconfirmed that the comfort and convenience of their already owned car beats any train, even when they run.
2. Some have had weeks of practice at working from home and are now doing it as routine.
3. Some have lost the jobs they used to travel to.
4. Some don't yet know when or if they'll be getting recalled to their jobs.
5. Leisure users are now terrified of catching something! Very many are responding extremely well to the highly effective marketing not to travel - with the subliminal message that rail travel may indirectly kill you!

View attachment 78129

At last a voice of common sense on this thread! Just as we now know the "stay at home" message was pitched too severely and has scared many people from leaving their homes, so the "essential travel only" message could have dire consequences for train companies when they belatedly try to encourage leisure passengers back onto their trains.

Had the message been softened to something like "travel if you like but avoid peak times if you can and try to maintain social distancing where possible", train companies might have retained the public's goodwill but as it stands I can see an awful lot of leisure passengers not returning to rail when the TOCs eventually decide they're welcome again!

 

[PG]

Passengers lost are very hard to get back, ever.

...as it stands I can see an awful lot of leisure passengers not returning to rail when the TOCs eventually decide they're welcome again!

So very true, hard won but easy lost!
We may well end up with an excess of capacity regardless of what mode of transport leisure travellers choose in the future.

I begin to wonder how much DfT will view some services as necessary or otherwise in a couple of years time?

 

[bramling]

Presumably you mean back to their place of work. 75% have not been furloughed and 44% are working from home.

Ultimately, yes that’s absolutely what we need to be aiming for, as soon as practicably possible. The sums being clocked up are beyond eye-watering, and Sunak won’t be all smiles when it comes to working out how we’re all going to pay the costs being accrued at the moment, likewise it’s in everyone’s interest for as many people as possible to be back to doing their normal job if it can be safely achieved.

Public transport is one major enabler of that. Certainly out and about locally I’ve never seen so much leisure going on, more than one would see on the busiest bank holidays, and it’s quite clear what would happen were trains a free-for-all.

We also need to remember the railway continues to function under immense strain. The fact that many parts of the operation turned out a creditable service yesterday is testament to a massive amount of work and effort which has gone on behind the scenes to get to that point, and will continue being necessary on a daily basis for some time to come as the industry continues to deliver with a large proportion of its workforce missing.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Well it looks like there may be a test of whether social distancing on trains is truly practical as early as Wednesday and Thursday this week. The weather forecast for London in particular is for sunshine and temperatures of up to 27 degrees, and although leisure journeys are discouraged, the combination of warm weather and additional trains may tempt some to make non-essential trips into the capital. Possibly.

Unless my desired route went via London I can't see why I'd go to London at the moment - too overcrowded and nothing open!

You're more likely to see people travelling to the seaside resorts en masse.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Public transport is one major enabler of that. Certainly out and about locally I’ve never seen so much leisure going on, more than one would see on the busiest bank holidays, and it’s quite clear what would happen were trains a free-for-all.

Part of that will be because of people on furlough, and part of it will just be because the preferred indoor leisure (pub, gym, cinema, whatever) isn't available.

 

[Bletchleyite]

So very true, hard won but easy lost!
We may well end up with an excess of capacity regardless of what mode of transport leisure travellers choose in the future.

That has an upside - the capacity crunches of 2019 might well go away, and commuters are an expensive nuisance - a heavy reduction in them would mean a heavy reduction in costs.

 

[Bletchleyite]

1. Leisure users are now terrified of catching something! Very many are responding extremely well to the highly effective marketing not to travel - with the subliminal message that rail travel may indirectly kill you!

But also that we are being told "essential use only" for the railway, still, which precludes leisure travel, because leisure travel is by definition not essential. As soon as I am clearly permitted to I will be taking some long train journeys. At present, however, it seems clear I am being asked not to do so.

 

[bramling]

Part of that will be because of people on furlough, and part of it will just be because the preferred indoor leisure (pub, gym, cinema, whatever) isn't available.

The more we can get the usual range of things open (with controls and mitigations in place), the more we can get back to something near to normal.

I went to a garden centre yesterday, normally middle of day on a weekday would be fairly dead, yet the place was utterly swarming (though having said that there was no queue, and interestingly the cashier said that although they had been “manic” a lot of people hadn’t actually been buying much).

There’s absolutely no way we can have this on trains at the moment.

Incidentally, as an aside, from the comfort of leave I put my work phone on just now for the first time in a week and a half, to have a look at how yesterday panned out at my place. I can only describe the logs as utter carnage, not helped by an unfortunate infrastructure issue which will have exacerbated the various people issues going on behind the scenes.

 

[PG]

That has an upside - the capacity crunches of 2019 might well go away, and commuters are an expensive nuisance - a heavy reduction in them would mean a heavy reduction in costs.

I begin to wonder how much DfT will view some services as necessary or otherwise in a couple of years time?

As I hinted at in my second paragraph, we need to remember it's DfT aka the Department for Roads so they might see an opportunity to cut capacity if less people are travelling (present circumstances excepted).

We also need to remember the railway continues to function under immense strain. The fact that many parts of the operation turned out a creditable service yesterday is testament to a massive amount of work and effort which has gone on behind the scenes to get to that point, and will continue being necessary on a daily basis for some time to come as the industry continues to deliver with a large proportion of its workforce missing

Here here, thanks to all involved in these efforts.

 

[geoffk]

Northern has circulated to user groups its latest advice on travel, telling us that "many of our trains now have seats taped off in order to encourage social distancing on board". TPE is doing the same. My question is, if a husband and wife or a family are travelling for "essential" purposes, surely they should be able to travel together rather than sit spaced out one to four seats? This would seem an unnecessary reduction in capacity if people who live together cannot sit together.

 

[Killingworth]

Northern has circulated to user groups its latest advice on travel, telling us that "many of our trains now have seats taped off in order to encourage social distancing on board". TPE is doing the same. My question is, if a husband and wife or a family are travelling for "essential" purposes, surely they should be able to travel together rather than sit spaced out one to four seats? This would seem an unnecessary reduction in capacity if people who live together cannot sit together.

'Many' and 'encourage' may need definition.' Most may not' could be the same. On Saturday I saw a family of 5, all masked, become the only passengers on a Northern train.

 

[yorkie]

Northern has circulated to user groups its latest advice on travel, telling us that "many of our trains now have seats taped off in order to encourage social distancing on board". TPE is doing the same. My question is, if a husband and wife or a family are travelling for "essential" purposes, surely they should be able to travel together rather than sit spaced out one to four seats? This would seem an unnecessary reduction in capacity if people who live together cannot sit together.

Good question; I'd be interested to hear if train companies have thought of this?

I've seen benches have all but one seat taped off, making them unusable for families. I hope a similar thing doesn't happen with trains. It would be madness.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Good question; I'd be interested to hear if train companies have thought of this?

I've seen benches have all but one seat taped off, making them unusable for families. I hope a similar thing doesn't happen with trains. It would be madness.

I believe Government guidelines now say to use the window seat only to maximise distancing across the train. Therefore sitting together is off the agenda.

 

[Skimpot flyer]

Well I hope plenty of thought has gone into these measures.
When sitting in an airport last month, people were sitting nicely spaced, in seating that that has seats back-to-back, facing in opposite directions. My other half and I soon moved when a family of four drifted near, and the eldest son sat directly behind my partner and started coughing. The seat behind you in these arrangements is actually closer than the one opposite, facing you !!!

 

[Killingworth]

But also that we are being told "essential use only" for the railway, still, which precludes leisure travel, because leisure travel is by definition not essential. As soon as I am clearly permitted to I will be taking some long train journeys. At present, however, it seems clear I am being asked not to do so.

Truth is that with a very large part of the population effectively on what seems like an extended holiday Hope Valley trains would normally be rammed with the active young and old heading into the Peak District. The railway is strongly discouraging that for fear of spreading infection on the trains.

But just as relevant to explain low current use, Peak District residents are very strongly discouraging visitors from coming anywhere near. No pubs, visitor attractions, cafes, souvenir shops or public toilets. That isn't stopping a few cycling, walking, running and driving out.

My forecast is that once restrictions are relaxed active outdoor folks will return to trains into the Peak District in volume more quickly than commuters on end to end journeys. Travel to Manchester Airport? Umm, that's going to take a bashing!

 

[yorkie]

To discuss the wearing of masks, please use the following thread: Cloth masks, scarves and bandanas to be 'encouraged' with no compulsion