Long term social distancing: Impact on public life & public transport?

[yorksrob]

Out of interest, does train air con generally take anything from outside ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Out of interest, does train air con generally take anything from outside ?

Yes, though I couldn't tell you what proportion. All air conditioning does. If you didn't take any from outside your passengers would soon die of hypoxia.

It's about the biggest misconception about flying going - most of it is from outside, it comes from engine bleed air (which is why it stinks of paraffin in the cabin when the engines start up).

 

[Killingworth]

I could actually walk almost the whole distance from my house to my office along the canal, the only slight issue is that it is around 13 miles each way. A little too much to be walking a marathon every day just to go to work. Of course I could buy a bike and cycle, and on a day like today it would be quite nice. However this is Yorkshire and we get a lot of days that are not nice, and canal tow paths can get pretty ugly around here when the rain tips down and the Aire Valley floods. But maybe I'll give it some consideration for the future as one option, although to be honest getting away to a nice holiday on the Med when we can is a bit higher up on the list at the moment (selfish I know, but after months of staring at the same walls I need it!).

That reminds me it was 8 miles and I jogged it one day a week, only 10 years ago!! But I got the tram and bus back. Sheer practicality, time and winter will drive folks back to buses and trains, no matter how keen many cyclists and walkers may be just now.

 

[Bantamzen]

Yes, though I couldn't tell you what proportion. All air conditioning does. If you didn't take any from outside your passengers would soon die of hypoxia.

It's about the biggest misconception about flying going - most of it is from outside, it comes from engine bleed air (which is why it stinks of paraffin in the cabin when the engines start up).

Its also the source one of the biggest complaints on TripAdvisor about low cost carriers using 737-800s, where passengers have booked around rows 9-11 (depending on the exact configuration). Around this point on a 737-800 is where the air from the engine bleed enters the system, but it usually leads to the Ryanair / EasyJet / Jet2 are "too cheap to put windows in debate".

 

[joncombe]

I'm not fan of O'Leary but he's spot on about wanting to fill his planes. Otherwise his business model doesn't work (nor does it for other airlines)

I don't think it does for most public transport to be honest, not just airlines. Trains, buses etc aren't designed around each individual vehicle being no more than about 1/4 full. They could be re-designed to be but if they can then only carry say a maximum of 1/4 of the seated capacity of the vehicle then it's never going to be economic unless you increase the fares by a factor of 4 to pay for it.

It's not just land-based vehicles either. For example today I'm hearing of a deal to save the Gosport ferry because passenger numbers are about 10% of what they were and the company that operates it is running at a massive loss as a result. The local Councils will provide some funding to prevent the service from closing because they recognise the alternative for many will be driving around the harbour which they want to avoid.

However suddenly subsidising previous profitable private organisations, plus the entire rail network and I think many bus operators cannot continue for long.

On a more positive note according to the Government briefing today "the country is in a position to start moving to level 3" which means reduced social distancing.

I'm hoping this will mean a reduction in the distance or perhaps even excemptions for certain places where it's not realistically possible such as public transport, as has already been hinted at for airlines.

It doesn't seem right that "public" transport is now for seemingly the small perecentage of the public that have to travel to work (can't work from home), are essential works and don't have a car. At the moment the public is providing a massive subsidy (via taxes) to support a public transport network that most of the public is being told they are not allowed to use - which I hope cannot continue for long (and before anyone jumps to the wrong conclusion, I'm not suggesting the massive subsidy be dropped and services stop, I'm suggesting all the public should be allowed to use public transport again).

 

[yorksrob]

Yes, though I couldn't tell you what proportion. All air conditioning does. If you didn't take any from outside your passengers would soon die of hypoxia.

It's about the biggest misconception about flying going - most of it is from outside, it comes from engine bleed air (which is why it stinks of paraffin in the cabin when the engines start up).

And why mk 3's smell of break dust perhaps !

 

[yorksrob]

I don't think it does for most public transport to be honest, not just airlines. Trains, buses etc aren't designed around each individual vehicle being no more than about 1/4 full. They could be re-designed to be but if they can then only carry say a maximum of 1/4 of the seated capacity of the vehicle then it's never going to be economic unless you increase the fares by a factor of 4 to pay for it.

That's an interesting point.

Obviously carting around fresh air isn't economic, however I wonder if a rake of mk4's would have to be full to seating capacity to make a profit ?

 

[Bletchleyite]

And why mk 3's smell of break dust perhaps !

Correct, the inlet is badly positioned such that it picks the brake smell up, though a mod was fitted to close the air intake when braking it doesn't totally prevent it.

 

[yorksrob]

Correct, the inlet is badly positioned such that it picks the brake smell up, though a mod was fitted to close the air intake when braking it doesn't totally prevent it.

Although to be fair, the smell makes me quite nostalgic !

 

[Huntergreed]

The Scottish Government released their exit strategy today. It mentions in stage 4, it says, interestingly:

Public Transport will be operating a full service, and physical distancing may be in place, subject to scientific advice

it sounds like, if things calm down, social distancing on trains may be scrapped subject to people following it in other areas

 

[Domh245]

Curious that ScotGov has decided to go it's own way in terms of having these phases, which are completely back to front compared to the UK Gov. Both are entirely logical, one being 'stages of releasing lockdown' whilst the other are 'levels of alertness', but I can't help but wonder how much of it is Nicola sticking 2 fingers up at Westminster

 

[mawallace]

Would be interesting if the Scottish document says that there is no need for social distancing on trains and the English do. What happens on the London - Aberdeen routes etc - do you have to leave passengers standing on the Scottish border!

My view is that the English will ease this - can't see public transport being like this for the long term. After all, I live in Suffolk and if the buses can only carry one tenth of the load, and the trains too, there will be a large cross section of the public unable to get about!

It's bit like seeing family - Scotland has been quite clear what comes when - Engish guidelines make NO mention of his apart from an 'aspiration' of a social bubble with ONE other household - that's not practical in the long term!

 

[Killingworth]

My view is that the English will ease this - can't see public transport being like this for the long term. After all, I live in Suffolk and if the buses can only carry one tenth of the load, and the trains too, there will be a large cross section of the public unable to get about!

In many parts of the country carrying a tenth of the normal load is still a very long way from what's happening just now. (Figures quoted for a hypothetical train of 1200 seats to ease my maths - reality would be nearer 300-400 so much worse.)

However, I'm imagining our usually well filled 6 coach train (two 3 car units without walk through) drawing up to the platform and just 20 want to board, all nicely spaced. The train already has 50 people aboard. (You could double the figures for a fifth, 100 already aboard, 40 want to join.)

Who's counting? Where are those 10 (or 20) 'available' seats?

So we have people piling in and it leaves 'overloaded' but with empty seats. Or does it? At an unmanned station the guard/conductor/train manager would have their work cut out to turn away the excess 10 (or 20). So off we go and we have people walking up and down the train, a bit like the pin ball looking for a slot to drop into. Do the 'surplus' 10 (or 20) stand around, or sit in any vacant seat?

It's a 3 car unit, one unit still has 10 (or 20) 'available' seats. The other is now 'overloaded' by 20 (or 40).

There are other stations on this route. People are trying to get off and on. Oh dear!

But normally 100 would want to board that train. It's getting worse.

This is not a problem, yet, on most lines. Over 90% of travellers are currently staying well clear. However, if it isn't a problem soon we won't have a viable railway for very long. But just getting 20 back is looking to be a challenge at present.

Have I an answer? No, other than to say I'd not fear rail travel in the solitude I see today. However, I'm trying to obey orders and staying near home.

We're all going to have to very carefully assess our own perceived levels of acceptable risk. The railway industry has a totally thankless task balancing all the conflicting factors in different places, for different people (incuding their own staff) and at different times of the day.

 

[nedchester]

I don't think it does for most public transport to be honest, not just airlines. Trains, buses etc aren't designed around each individual vehicle being no more than about 1/4 full. They could be re-designed to be but if they can then only carry say a maximum of 1/4 of the seated capacity of the vehicle then it's never going to be economic unless you increase the fares by a factor of 4 to pay for it.

It's not just land-based vehicles either. For example today I'm hearing of a deal to save the Gosport ferry because passenger numbers are about 10% of what they were and the company that operates it is running at a massive loss as a result. The local Councils will provide some funding to prevent the service from closing because they recognise the alternative for many will be driving around the harbour which they want to avoid.

However suddenly subsidising previous profitable private organisations, plus the entire rail network and I think many bus operators cannot continue for long.

On a more positive note according to the Government briefing today "the country is in a position to start moving to level 3" which means reduced social distancing.

I'm hoping this will mean a reduction in the distance or perhaps even excemptions for certain places where it's not realistically possible such as public transport, as has already been hinted at for airlines.

It doesn't seem right that "public" transport is now for seemingly the small perecentage of the public that have to travel to work (can't work from home), are essential works and don't have a car. At the moment the public is providing a massive subsidy (via taxes) to support a public transport network that most of the public is being told they are not allowed to use - which I hope cannot continue for long (and before anyone jumps to the wrong conclusion, I'm not suggesting the massive subsidy be dropped and services stop, I'm suggesting all the public should be allowed to use public transport again).

Absolutely, give it perhaps another month and then from July we need to head back to near normal.

 

[yorksrob]

In many parts of the country carrying a tenth of the normal load is still a very long way from what's happening just now. (Figures quoted for a hypothetical train of 1200 seats to ease my maths - reality would be nearer 300-400 so much worse.)

However, I'm imagining our usually well filled 6 coach train (two 3 car units without walk through) drawing up to the platform and just 20 want to board, all nicely spaced. The train already has 50 people aboard. (You could double the figures for a fifth, 100 already aboard, 40 want to join.)

Who's counting? Where are those 10 (or 20) 'available' seats?

So we have people piling in and it leaves 'overloaded' but with empty seats. Or does it? At an unmanned station the guard/conductor/train manager would have their work cut out to turn away the excess 10 (or 20). So off we go and we have people walking up and down the train, a bit like the pin ball looking for a slot to drop into. Do the 'surplus' 10 (or 20) stand around, or sit in any vacant seat?

It's a 3 car unit, one unit still has 10 (or 20) 'available' seats. The other is now 'overloaded' by 20 (or 40).

There are other stations on this route. People are trying to get off and on. Oh dear!

But normally 100 would want to board that train. It's getting worse.

This is not a problem, yet, on most lines. Over 90% of travellers are currently staying well clear. However, if it isn't a problem soon we won't have a viable railway for very long. But just getting 20 back is looking to be a challenge at present.

Have I an answer? No, other than to say I'd not fear rail travel in the solitude I see today. However, I'm trying to obey orders and staying near home.

We're all going to have to very carefully assess our own perceived levels of acceptable risk. The railway industry has a totally thankless task balancing all the conflicting factors in different places, for different people (incuding their own staff) and at different times of the day.

The Hope Valley stopper has always been a massive ball ache.

That aside, for most of my non-commuting journeys around here, other than the trans-pennines and the "last train back's" from Leeds/Sheffield, I've usually been able to get a double seat to myself. And that was before all this crap hit the fan. I'm expecting the trains top be a bit less busy than that for a while, so I will be travelling when the guidelines are relaxed.

 

[Llanigraham]

Curious that ScotGov has decided to go it's own way in terms of having these phases, which are completely back to front compared to the UK Gov. Both are entirely logical, one being 'stages of releasing lockdown' whilst the other are 'levels of alertness', but I can't help but wonder how much of it is Nicola sticking 2 fingers up at Westminster

I think that would be better if you stated it was compared to the English government, as Wales are also going their own way, and more in line with that of Scotland.
And I note we haven't heard what the Northern Ireland Assembly have decided.

 

[Enthusiast]

None of the current restrictions are practical in the long term. The idea that trains and buses will run around only about a quarter full is risible and Killingworth illustrates some very pertinent practical problems which are virtually impossible to overcome. Despite what the government would have us believe, "Social Distancing" is advice or guidance and is nowhere enshrined in law. Shops have chosen to enforce it for reasons best known to themselves and are making a decent job of it. Fine at the moment - people don't mind too much queuing for 20 mins to get into Tesco's. Ask them again in November.

If the government is serious about getting people back to work properly it needs to abandon any thoughts of restricting the capacity of public transport - especially that serving large towns and cities. Most people who use it to get to work use it because they have to, not because it's their favourite option. Not only that, it's not possible. If a train is running people will get on it. Unless they are denied entry to the station, that is. And how is that to be achieved across 2,500-odd station across GB, not to mention LU and other Metro systems.

Buses? I've been using buses during the past few weeks and believe me 2m social distancing is impossible. Buses are only 2.4m wide and the gangway's down the middle. Even lightly loaded close proximity to other passengers is inevitable. Quite honestly, even thinking about it is a complete waste of time. You either run public transport or you don't.

 

[Bletchleyite]

Have I an answer? No

I do - as I keep saying, compulsory reservations! You then know which coach and seat you should be in to properly balance the loadings.

It is a complete no-brainer to me and a number of countries have already done it, as well as a couple of UK TOCs doing counted places.

 

[sheff1]

I was surprised to see comments on here about using canal towpaths today; I would have expected to see them about a month ago.

Yes, surprised me too. Usually the 'ban everything I'm not interested in doing' posters are much quicker off the mark.

People are generally poor at assessing risks.

I hadn't really thought about it before, but since 'lockdown' I have been surprised how many people seem happy to take actions which are far more likely to risk their health than what they are trying to avoid.

 

[111-111-1]

I'd be more than happy for his business model to be shoved up his proverbial. It's based on misleading people and caning them for additional fees.

I have no problem with the low-cost yield-managed concept as done by easyJet, for example. But easyJet don't set out deliberately to catch people out.

I got no time for O'Leary publicity mad ego but he has changed a small into big airline.

Most airline charge extras for bag or seat or food. All need is to work out cost of everything and compare. If cost and time good Ryanair can be good, same easyjet ba Flybe wizz or hooever

 

[111-111-1]

I do - as I keep saying, compulsory reservations! You then know which coach and seat you should be in to properly balance the loadings.

It is a complete no-brainer to me and a number of countries have already done it, as well as a couple of UK TOCs doing counted places.

Don't no about LNER or Avanti but on XC and FGW all week no need. Maybe later but not now and you still cannot tell how it will be policed.

 

[Enthusiast]

I do - as I keep saying, compulsory reservations! You then know which coach and seat you should be in to properly balance the loadings.

Are you suggesting such a system for, say the Southern and South East services from Kent, Sussex and Surrey into London? Presumably the reservations will mean the trains running at perhaps 25% capacity. Before the lockdown they ran at about 110% capacity. What happens to the other 85% who need to get to work? Let's be (very) generous and say half of them either continue to work at home or find other ways to commute. What then happens to the other 45% or so?

 

[111-111-1]

Are you suggesting such a system for, say the Southern and South East services from Kent, Sussex and Surrey into London? Presumably the reservations will mean the trains running at perhaps 25% capacity. Before the lockdown they ran at about 110% capacity. What happens to the other 85% who need to get to work? Let's be (very) generous and say half of them either continue to work at home or find other ways to commute. What then happens to the other 45% or so?

Bletchyite keeps telling Compulsory Reservations but cant tell how it will be done. I been on XC and FGW not enough people to need them.

In local train no way can be done.

 

[Enthusiast]

Bletchyite keeps telling Compulsory Reservations but cant tell how it will be done. I been on XC and FGW not enough people to need them.

No, but there will be once the government stops paying people's wages and they have to return to work. Quite how a reservations system will work on commuter routes which, pre-lockdown, were packed to the gunwales is not quite clear. There seems to be this notion that only about 20% of people are going to return to public transport and the rest will stay at home or bike to work. It ain't gonna be like that!

 

[Jamesrob637]

Fine at the moment - people don't mind too much queuing for 20 mins to get into Tesco's. Ask them again in November.

Spot on. I ain't queuing for a shop come mid-late autumn and the rainier season unless thousands of canopies are strung up over supermarket and retail car parks.

 

[westv]

There seems to be this notion that only about 20% of people are going to return to public transport and the rest will stay at home or bike to work. It ain't gonna be like that!

Maybe not 20% but I Imagine it'll be low for a while. 44% are working from home and I imagine many will continue to do so. 25% are furloughed so leaves 19% who may possibly be at their place of work now anyway.

 

[yorkie]

None of the current restrictions are practical in the long term. ....

Totally agree; I'd say end of June and then it needs to change.

... believe me 2m social distancing is impossible. ....

Totally agree it needs to change but I'll just point out we have a dedicated thread proposing this at:

Is it time to relax the 2m social distancing guideline? (WHO guidance is 1m)

Yes the balance. I see cases of people flaunting the rules for no benefit but for themselves and they do it in the belief that it won't hurt them - selfish. I think we need to relax lockdown as much as we dare. i am horrified that advice is to avoid public transport as this will make the roads...

www.railforums.co.uk

And while we're at it, I know no-one has mentioned masks here recently, but just to remind people the dedicated thread for that is at:

Cloth masks, scarves and bandanas to be 'encouraged' with no compulsion

It appears highly likely that the British Government will finally change its advice in the next few days on public mask-wearing, following new recommendations from its scientific advisors. Cloth masks, scarves, and bandanas covering the mouth would be 'encouraged' in public but there will be no...

www.railforums.co.uk

 

[Killingworth]

I do - as I keep saying, compulsory reservations! You then know which coach and seat you should be in to properly balance the loadings.

It is a complete no-brainer to me and a number of countries have already done it, as well as a couple of UK TOCs doing counted places.

Apart from the number of trains not built to deal with reservations and consequently the TOCs not being geared up to do it, I agree with you. I live in Northern territory.

 

[xc170]

I do - as I keep saying, compulsory reservations! You then know which coach and seat you should be in to properly balance the loadings.

In an idea world that may work.

Let's say I have a job interview tomorrow morning, no reservations left, what do I do, turn the job interview down?

 

[Bletchleyite]

Apart from the number of trains not built to deal with reservations and consequently the TOCs not being geared up to do it, I agree with you. I live in Northern territory.

Most trains have seat numbers, that's all that is needed, and it's hardly difficult to add them if needed. If they are compulsory there is no need to place them.