Given that for most people the risk is as high as driving 185 miles, unless the OP is in a higher risk group, then this is unlikely.
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Long term social distancing: Impact on public life & public transport?
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Given that for most people the risk is as high as driving 185 miles, unless the OP is in a higher risk group, then this is unlikely.
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nlogax
Established Member
Cycling is a decent way to get around and the roads will never again be as quiet as they are now. That said..golf clap to the myriad cyclists around here who seem to think that social distancing can be completely ignored by riding two, three or four abreast on quiet roads within about a foot of each other.
CaptainHaddock
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Looks like someone at Northern's got too much time on their hands!
Being a bit of a rebel I deliberately sat in one of the "out of use" seats...
View attachment 78701
Looks like someone at Northern's got too much time on their hands!
Being a bit of a rebel I deliberately sat in one of the "out of use" seats...
Only reinforcing the anouncement been made by guards on trains to use window seat.
View attachment 78701
Looks like someone at Northern's got too much time on their hands!
Being a bit of a rebel I deliberately sat in one of the "out of use" seats...
It’s all getting just a bit silly, isn’t it?! What happens if all the seats are occupied and it’s too busy to stand >2m apart. Are you supposed to wait 2 hours for the next train?
Admittedly that’s unlikely given current useage levels but, given that Northern run short formations and infrequent services, it will likely become a problem soon, if social distancing remains until the end of the year as some are predicting.
No because the 2m thing is guidance / advice, not the law.
View attachment 78701
Looks like someone at Northern's got too much time on their hands!
Being a bit of a rebel I deliberately sat in one of the "out of use" seats...
The real crime here is that the seat with the full view out of the window has been blocked off instead of the one with no window and the one halfway along!View attachment 78701
Looks like someone at Northern's got too much time on their hands!
Being a bit of a rebel I deliberately sat in one of the "out of use" seats...
In all seriousness though this is completely unworkable. Sooner or later the masses will realise that they are allowed on public transport and, if systems like this are still in use, it’s not going to work.
Killingworth
Established Member
View attachment 78701
Looks like someone at Northern's got too much time on their hands!
Being a bit of a rebel I deliberately sat in one of the "out of use" seats...
Last Saturday I saw an unusual thing, a family of 5, all masked, waiting for a Northern train, 2 of the children possibly under 10. Seats were not taped off. It was only the start of the journey and the train was empty so presumably not a problem where they sat, the guard remaining in the rear cab.
Somewhere down the line other passengers may also want seats. If the train had been labelled with "Out of use" signs and they were complied with the very organisation of sitting the kids along the train and keeping them there would be a nightmare. Getting the children all together at one table with one adult would be less likely to cause danger. Children aren't likely to get it severely, if at all, so put them on the side next to the gangway, second adult nearby at a window seat. Commonsense?
Users will do their own thing but the TOCs will have done their best.
Public transport has been dealt a greater killer blow than the population at large. It may take a decade to recover, and won't look like it did in January 2020 when it does.
Bletchleyite
Veteran Member
How do you know that they do not live in the same household?
nlogax
Established Member
Multiple groups of 4 to 8 blokes in matching team kit? It's extremely unlikely.
View attachment 78701
Looks like someone at Northern's got too much time on their hands!
Being a bit of a rebel I deliberately sat in one of the "out of use" seats...
No they're making an effort.......... and no doubt they would be lambasted if they did nothing to help with social distancing? Seriously some people need protecting from themselves.
And fair play to Northern for making the effort.
That said, it's getting to the point where we are beginning to see the effect that less onerous social distancing strictures are having on other countries public transport systems. So far, these do not appear to be having a significant detrimental effect on those countries infection rates, therefore we should be looking to switch to these countries measures in the near future.
That said, it's getting to the point where we are beginning to see the effect that less onerous social distancing strictures are having on other countries public transport systems. So far, these do not appear to be having a significant detrimental effect on those countries infection rates, therefore we should be looking to switch to these countries measures in the near future.
CaptainHaddock
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Yes, a completely unnecessary and disproportionate effort that will do nothing to encourage people to return to public transport now the number of new infections is declining so rapidly.
I'm a key worker - what if, when I turn up for my train to work on Monday morning, the only free seats have an 'out of use' sign plastered across them? Should I ignore the notice or disembark and wait an hour for the next train?
Not to mention that family groups in the same household have no choice but to sit separately with this type of unnecessary system, meaning that capacity is even lower than it needs to be, simply because they want to be seen “making an effort”
They're setting up a lot of potential confrontation between passengers with that sort of setup. When people are already tense and nervous, that seems like a recipe for many many problems, perhaps even violent altercations.
If the intent is to make it as unpleasant as possible to travel by public transport, a good job is being done of it
If the intent is to make it as unpleasant as possible to travel by public transport, a good job is being done of it
Enthusiast
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But the problem is many people don't know that. And it's not helped by the government publishing advice such as this:
New guidance on spending time outdoors
Details on a range of outdoor activities which will be allowed in England from 13 May 2020 subject to social distancing rules.
That document was published on 13th May when the restrictions were slightly eased. You can go through it and see "social distancing rules" mentioned frequently, though to be fair they are also referred to as "guidance" or "guidelines". But in the opening section is says this "All of the new regulations are subject to social distancing rules." Well they can't be as there are no such rules. But when you sit behind someone on a train they may well have read only the opening section of the guidance (if they have read any of it at all, that is).
The message the government (and particularly TOC’s it seems) Seem to want to send is that 2m is the law, and coming within 1.99m of another living soul is equivalent to signing an execution warrant. I was really hopeful there would be a reduction to 1m on Monday but this is evidently not the case. Are they really going to insist on 2m throughout the crisis, turning a blind eye to the huge practical and social implications this has on trying to reopen the economy?But the problem is many people don't know that. And it's not helped by the government publishing advice such as this:
New guidance on spending time outdoors
Details on a range of outdoor activities which will be allowed in England from 13 May 2020 subject to social distancing rules.www.gov.uk
That document was published on 13th May when the restrictions were slightly eased. You can go through it and see "social distancing rules" mentioned frequently, though to be fair they are also referred to as "guidance" or "guidelines". But in the opening section is says this "All of the new regulations are subject to social distancing rules." Well they can't be as there are no such rules. But when you sit behind someone on a train they may well have read only the opening section of the guidance (if they have read any of it at all, that is).
You could try using a bit of common sense like most other people do....... and there is no effort to encourage people onto public transport, quite the opposite in fact........ social distancing....... surely it's self explanatory?
Judging by the BBC coverage, there seems to be more questioning of the 2m rule and discussion around other countries approaches, particularly since the former chancellor Norman Lamont has spoken of the disastrous effect 2m will have on businesses. This is welcome in my personal opinion.
Killingworth
Established Member
They're setting up a lot of potential confrontation between passengers with that sort of setup. When people are already tense and nervous, that seems like a recipe for many many problems, perhaps even violent altercations.
If the intent is to make it as unpleasant as possible to travel by public transport, a good job is being done of it
2 metres is a somewhat arbitary distance, easier to achieve in the countryside than on busy (hopefully before long) trains in urban areas trying to keep to timetable with passengers joining and leaving all the time! It doesn't take a genius to realise that Canute would very soon have got his feet wet, which is apparently what he was demonstrating and no doubt the public will soon be showing as they start returning to trains.
Whatever, it seems train spotters are now getting instructions down on our local platform. Curiously, they were sitting further apart than illustrated in the notice before it appeared. "Please keep your distance" with a couple shown at opposite ends of a short bench.
And those parking are having to get into order too. Although at present if 5 users in a 129 space park are using trains it's a busy day. The majority of those currently parking are going for a walk, a jog, buying plants from the pop up plant shop run by the otherwise closed ladies hairdressers, or collecting Indian meals from the otherwise closed restaurant in the old station building. "Please keep your distance when parking". At least it's making business for those producing all this signage.
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northernchris
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I was on a Northern service for the first time in a couple of months yesterday, and the 158 had these markings on many seats. It really highlighted how low the capacity is at the moment, although the service I was on had no more than 8 passengers on. However if capacity is still restricted to current levels once non essential retail and the hospitability sector reopen it's going to affect their ability to trade if people can't get there so I do hope the government are looking at other countries to see what works for them
Indeed. The current situation is simply untenable. As a country, we have been learning from other countries, albeit slowly. We need to learn from them in this respect.
I went to my local Urgent Care for something unrelated to Covid. I can tell you that they had placed 2m social distancing crosses on a lot of the seats in the waiting room. People ignored it. This was in a hospital's waiting room. If people are ignoring it in a hospital they will ignore it on a train (I know this won't be the same everywhere but this is from my personal experience). While I understand the reasons behind it on the train, it is ultimately not going to work as anything more than a short term solution for about a week or two at the most.
CaptainHaddock
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That's exactly my point, rail travellers should be trusted to use their common sense when deciding where to sit, not have some passive-aggressive jobsworth arbitrarily deciding which seats they can sit in.
Fortunately the "out of use" notices are made of an elasticated material and fairly easy to remove but they're still an unnecessary and pointless annoyance!
Seriously...... it's people with your attitude that will cause another wave of Covid-19.
Sadly I don't think there's much trust in the public for people to use common sense, given the images of crowding and my own, admittedly anecdotal, experiences so far.
A reduction to 1m is absolutely necessary ASAP, but I wouldn't say that leaving it entirely to personal responsibility is the correct approach either as this would, potentially, risk a second peak, overwhelming the health board, another lockdown, and far, far more damage to the economy and our way of life. I'm not referring to trains particularly but just the general approach which society should take.
It's important to minimise the disruption to our lives, but leaving distancing entirely to personal responsibility will, sooner or later, just lead us back to the 'old normal' which, for the time being, would be the worst possible scenario for all aspects of society as it would, inevitably, cause a second peak which overwhelms the health board.
nedchester
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I would say that making sit in the same seat is potentially more dangerous. If an infected person sits in that seat and touches the surroundings then when the next person gets on they can only sit in the selected seats of which one is the 'infected' one. Therefore, by the law of probability there is a greater risk of reinfection by just limiting the seats to specific ones.
edwin_m
Veteran Member
Two things that particularly concern me (and apologies if I'm repeating stuff from the preceding 45 pages as I haven't been through them):
Firstly the countries that appear to have handled this best are only releasing lockdown significantly when they have got down into the hundreds of new cases per day, which is more likely to be within the ability of the contact tracers to keep a lid on. Best estimate is that we still have somewhere around 10000 new cases per day. If relaxing lockdown sends the R number out of control then it may not be obvious for a week or so, by which time the number of infections per day may have doubled or trebled. If a number in the hundreds doubles or trebles then that's still manageable by re-imposing lockdown measures as they have had to in South Korea. A doubling or trebling of 10000 cases sends us back into the territory of overwhelming the NHS, not to mention the degree of extra economic damage from the many weeks of lockdown it will take to get the numbers back down again.
Secondly I believe any sort of social distancing separation makes normal economic life impossible. Most of the businesses that can't operate currently will be on drastically reduced numbers of customers and thus profit margins, and with reduced transport capacity and constant reminders of the disease many people won't want to go out for discretionary activity anyway.
Putting these two together I wonder if the best solution is to endure the lockdown for a longer period to get the casualties per day low enough, but then move quite quickly to a situation where little or no social distancing is necessary, perhaps by measures such as requiring masks in public transport. This is roughly where some Far Eastern countries are at the moment, with crowding on their metros not much below normal, and the South Korea re-lockdown seems to have been in response to a specific outbreak in a distribution depot rather than general social contact. How feasible is this situation in advance of a vaccine?
Firstly the countries that appear to have handled this best are only releasing lockdown significantly when they have got down into the hundreds of new cases per day, which is more likely to be within the ability of the contact tracers to keep a lid on. Best estimate is that we still have somewhere around 10000 new cases per day. If relaxing lockdown sends the R number out of control then it may not be obvious for a week or so, by which time the number of infections per day may have doubled or trebled. If a number in the hundreds doubles or trebles then that's still manageable by re-imposing lockdown measures as they have had to in South Korea. A doubling or trebling of 10000 cases sends us back into the territory of overwhelming the NHS, not to mention the degree of extra economic damage from the many weeks of lockdown it will take to get the numbers back down again.
Secondly I believe any sort of social distancing separation makes normal economic life impossible. Most of the businesses that can't operate currently will be on drastically reduced numbers of customers and thus profit margins, and with reduced transport capacity and constant reminders of the disease many people won't want to go out for discretionary activity anyway.
Putting these two together I wonder if the best solution is to endure the lockdown for a longer period to get the casualties per day low enough, but then move quite quickly to a situation where little or no social distancing is necessary, perhaps by measures such as requiring masks in public transport. This is roughly where some Far Eastern countries are at the moment, with crowding on their metros not much below normal, and the South Korea re-lockdown seems to have been in response to a specific outbreak in a distribution depot rather than general social contact. How feasible is this situation in advance of a vaccine?
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