• Our booking engine at tickets.railforums.co.uk (powered by TrainSplit) helps support the running of the forum with every ticket purchase! Find out more and ask any questions/give us feedback in this thread!

Long term social distancing: Impact on public life & public transport?

Status
Not open for further replies.

fishquinn

Established Member
Associate Staff
Quizmaster
Joined
4 Oct 2013
Messages
6,643
Location
Warwickshire
I can only speak for my TOC which continues to have no onboard catering or revenue checks. We are still required to patrol the train periodically for security reasons and to provide a presence for customer service but no requirement to proactively approach passengers. Crews have been issued face masks to set a good example regarding the Government's guidance but not 'protective' ones in terms of respirators etc.
Thanks, seems a sensible way of doing it and far more sensible than TPE's supposed approach during the actual lockdown.
 
Sponsor Post - registered members do not see these adverts; click here to register, or click here to log in
R

RailUK Forums

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,686
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
Actually it can. We currently have loads of off peak trains and buses running virtually empty for most of the day. So long as you avoid peak hours I see no good reason why people shouldn't use public transport to meet up with friends or relatives or maybe enjoy a walk out in the country.

Obviously there isn't the capacity for swathes of extending families to descend on Skegness or Scarborough but if a couple of friends want to say, head out from Manchester or Sheffield into the Peak District for a ramble, where's the problem?

There isn’t. But how do you stop that couple of friends turning into a whole train full when lots of people have the same idea? And what if they wish to return from their ramble at a time when people are travelling home from work?

Also remember that not everyone travels to and from work at peak times. Indeed over coming weeks it’s highly likely many will choose to travel at other times, indeed they may well be encouraged to. This may allow many to safely and confidently return to work. The last thing needed is for them to turn up and find the train full of day-trippers.

Getting as many people back to work needs to be the priority, the economy depends on it.
 

37424

Member
Joined
10 Apr 2020
Messages
1,064
Location
Leeds
There isn’t. But how do you stop that couple of friends turning into a whole train full when lots of people have the same idea? And what if they wish to return from their ramble at a time when people are travelling home from work?

Also remember that not everyone travels to and from work at peak times. Indeed over coming weeks it’s highly likely many will choose to travel at other times, indeed they may well be encouraged to. This may allow many to safely and confidently return to work. The last thing needed is for them to turn up and find the train full of day-trippers.

Getting as many people back to work needs to be the priority, the economy depends on it.
Indeed if people get the idea that rail is available for leisure then they are going to get swapped, hence the message from the government and TOC's about essential travel only, In fact the latest Northern timetable for Whitby looks as though its been designed to prevent day drippers to Whitby.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,439
Location
Yorkshire
Thanks, seems a sensible way of doing it and far more sensible than TPE's supposed approach during the actual lockdown.
I spoke to a TPE Guard who said he thought TPE's policy was sensible: they are allowed to check tickets but not compelled to. Are TPE the only TOC that allow their staff to check tickets on board trains? Has anything changed this week?
 

WelshBluebird

Established Member
Joined
14 Jan 2010
Messages
4,923
Some of the lengths I've seen some people take to get more than 2m from others is just crazy (including stepping into roads without looking); the message needs to change to be more practicable.

Isn't that the fault of those people being idiots though? Not sure you can blame the government for people stepping into roads without looking!

Actually it can. We currently have loads of off peak trains and buses running virtually empty for most of the day. So long as you avoid peak hours I see no good reason why people shouldn't use public transport to meet up with friends or relatives or maybe enjoy a walk out in the country.

Obviously there isn't the capacity for swathes of extending families to descend on Skegness or Scarborough but if a couple of friends want to say, head out from Manchester or Sheffield into the Peak District for a ramble, where's the problem?

The problem is once you say you can do it, those buses and trains won't be empty! It is the same reason why things like national parks and beauty spots etc are trying to discourage people from going there, because yes they may be quiet and isolated atm, but as soon as hundreds of people decent on them, they very much won't be so quiet!
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,828
Location
Yorks
The problem is once you say you can do it, those buses and trains won't be empty! It is the same reason why things like national parks and beauty spots etc are trying to discourage people from going there, because yes they may be quiet and isolated atm, but as soon as hundreds of people decent on them, they very much won't be so quiet!

They seem to be preparing for trains not being empty during the rush hour, they should do it the rest of the time so that people can see their friends and family (when the wider restrictions allow).
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,439
Location
Yorkshire
Isn't that the fault of those people being idiots though? Not sure you can blame the government for people stepping into roads without looking!
I never said that.

However the campaign has got people disproportionately concerned about the risk of the virus to the extent that some people are increasing their overall risk of causing themselves (or others) to come to harm.
 

Huntergreed

Established Member
Associate Staff
Events Co-ordinator
Joined
16 Jan 2016
Messages
3,019
Location
Dumfries
I agree. Public transport users seem to be very much forgotten in terms of Government communications.
I imagine they’re not keen to highlight that non essential journeys are now allowed in case there’s a big rush, so they’re just not mentioning it
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,828
Location
Yorks
I imagine they’re not keen to highlight that non essential journeys are now allowed in case there’s a big rush, so they’re just not mentioning it

We seem to be in limbo at the moment. Do we even know that non-essential journeys are allowed under the guidance, or is it just the case of an individual policeman not enforcing it ?
 

Solent&Wessex

Established Member
Joined
9 Jul 2009
Messages
2,683
I spoke to a TPE Guard who said he thought TPE's policy was sensible: they are allowed to check tickets but not compelled to. Are TPE the only TOC that allow their staff to check tickets on board trains? Has anything changed this week?

Yes.

It is now deemed too unsafe to leave the cab. All guards have been instructed to remain in their designated crew areas (depending on rolling stock), no revenue duties are to be carried out and you are not allowed to pass through the train unless it is an emergency or there is some other thing that needs doing there and then and cannot possibly wait. Revenue protection staff have been removed from trains.

As the barriers at those stations which have them are either open or as watertight as a tea bag, then it is even more a free railway than before. The issue of revenue collection, let alone protection, is something the industry will need to grasp before too long unless the government is happy to run and fund a free service where payment is not required. But that is for another thread!

Incidentally, despite the prophets of doom and gloom, I have probably observed less people travelling today than last week!
 

CaptainHaddock

Established Member
Joined
10 Feb 2011
Messages
2,206
The problem is once you say you can do it, those buses and trains won't be empty! It is the same reason why things like national parks and beauty spots etc are trying to discourage people from going there, because yes they may be quiet and isolated atm, but as soon as hundreds of people decent on them, they very much won't be so quiet!

The "What if everyone did that?" argument is currently a weak one as I suspect right now very few people want to use public transport for leisure purposes as nothing's open for them to visit. The only people you're likely to get on, say, a Hope Valley stopper will be individuals or small groups having a walk in the hills, where they'll come into far less contact with others than they would if they'd met up in their local park. The tourists will continue to stay away because the attractions, pubs, cafes and shops remain shut so there's nothing much for them to do.

You also have to bear in mind that repeated surveys show many people have been so scared by the more extreme proprietors of the lockdown message that they would not want to use public transport until they feel it's safe to do so.

Yes there will come a time when everything opens and there'll be a risk of public transport being overrun. But right now I see no good reason for denying the small number of leisure travellers from travelling by train so long as they avoid peak times.
 

LowLevel

Established Member
Joined
26 Oct 2013
Messages
7,547
The "What if everyone did that?" argument is currently a weak one as I suspect right now very few people want to use public transport for leisure purposes as nothing's open for them to visit. The only people you're likely to get on, say, a Hope Valley stopper will be individuals or small groups having a walk in the hills, where they'll come into far less contact with others than they would if they'd met up in their local park. The tourists will continue to stay away because the attractions, pubs, cafes and shops remain shut so there's nothing much for them to do.

You also have to bear in mind that repeated surveys show many people have been so scared by the more extreme proprietors of the lockdown message that they would not want to use public transport until they feel it's safe to do so.

Yes there will come a time when everything opens and there'll be a risk of public transport being overrun. But right now I see no good reason for denying the small number of leisure travellers from travelling by train so long as they avoid peak times.


I agree with you to an extent though we have some routes that would be vulnerable regardless - Matlock for example attracts a lot of walkers and cyclists to the intermediate stations just for the surrounding area even if the attractions at the top of the line in Matlock itself aren't open. Cromford Canal and other locations are very popular. Even at the height of the lockdown some people were chancing it on the basis that they were most unlikely to find the BTP waiting for them at Ambergate.

Our normal pisshead expresses into the cities on the other hand are indeed empty with there being no bars/restaurants etc open.
 

Killingworth

Established Member
Joined
30 May 2018
Messages
4,813
Location
Sheffield
The "What if everyone did that?" argument is currently a weak one as I suspect right now very few people want to use public transport for leisure purposes as nothing's open for them to visit. The only people you're likely to get on, say, a Hope Valley stopper will be individuals or small groups having a walk in the hills, where they'll come into far less contact with others than they would if they'd met up in their local park. The tourists will continue to stay away because the attractions, pubs, cafes and shops remain shut so there's nothing much for them to do.

Don't think tourists will stay away from the Peak District without shops and pubs. They have big back packs with all they need to bring with them, and they do, not a few leaving their litter behind. There are lots just waiting for an amber light to go and some will have gone today.

Last week I met a bloody minded cyclist who'd just got off a Hope Valley stopper. He said he could see nothing wrong with boarding an empty train to cycle on almost empty roads in the Peak District without getting near anybody, and get another empty train back again. Others were cycling all the way there and back. I coudn't help but agree with him - apart from it being the policy to only make essential rail journeys. If everyone takes the same line and treats this as a normal holiday period the trains would soon be swamped

Someone might have the virus on the packed train, and 10 might catch it. Probably not, but back to where we started if they did.

There's no easy answer. We're all going to have to judge the level of risk for ourselves and be as careful as we can, for as long as we can, locking ourselves up/down as and where we feel to be necessary. Generally in Lincolnshire or Devon I'd feel safe. Not so in London or Liverpool - but it's just one chance encounter that will do the damage, anywhere.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,828
Location
Yorks
Don't think tourists will stay away from the Peak District without shops and pubs. They have big back packs with all they need to bring with them, and they do, not a few leaving their litter behind. There are lots just waiting for an amber light to go and some will have gone today.

Last week I met a bloody minded cyclist who'd just got off a Hope Valley stopper. He said he could see nothing wrong with boarding an empty train to cycle on almost empty roads in the Peak District without getting near anybody, and get another empty train back again. Others were cycling all the way there and back. I coudn't help but agree with him - apart from it being the policy to only make essential rail journeys. If everyone takes the same line and treats this as a normal holiday period the trains would soon be swamped

Someone might have the virus on the packed train, and 10 might catch it. Probably not, but back to where we started if they did.

There's no easy answer. We're all going to have to judge the level of risk for ourselves and be as careful as we can, for as long as we can, locking ourselves up/down as and where we feel to be necessary. Generally in Lincolnshire or Devon I'd feel safe. Not so in London or Liverpool - but it's just one chance encounter that will do the damage, anywhere.

Was the cyclist wearing a face covering while on the train ? I say this because sooner or later more of us will be travelling and we will have to mitigate risk some other way than by expecting all trains to be empty.
 

Bookd

Member
Joined
27 Aug 2015
Messages
445
The risk in London based on the renowned R number and recorded new infections seems quite low.
The World Health Oganisation recommends a distance of one metre which would be more manageable than the two enforced here.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,192
Location
St Albans
The risk in London based on the renowned R number and recorded new infections seems quite low.
The World Health Oganisation recommends a distance of one metre which would be more manageable than the two enforced here.
Which would also be more manageable (about four times) for the virus to transmit. The WTO recommends a minimum distance of 1 metre.
 

AM9

Veteran Member
Joined
13 May 2014
Messages
14,192
Location
St Albans
... You also have to bear in mind that repeated surveys show many people have been so scared by the more extreme proprietors of the lockdown message that they would not want to use public transport until they feel it's safe to do so. ...
The outputs of these surveys seem to be an excuse for those who don't want to follow the advice (and have been saying that since the start of the restrictions) to justify themselves ignoring safeguards. I suspect that some may genuinely be over cautious, but in practice, a large majority of the ordinary public are obeying the rules because they believe that it is the right thing to do. Most of the low-risk group accept the moral responsibility of reducing the risk of those less fortunate than themselves.
 

greyman42

Established Member
Joined
14 Aug 2017
Messages
4,894
Regarding non essential journeys, we seem to be going round in circles. Are we allowed to make them? A straight forward yes or no will suffice.
 

nlogax

Established Member
Joined
29 May 2011
Messages
5,352
Location
Mostly Glasgow-ish. Mostly.
Regarding non essential journeys, we seem to be going round in circles. Are we allowed to make them? A straight forward yes or no will suffice.

Yes no.

I'm being facetious, but that's how I interpret the advice. Try this.

https://fullfact.org/health/coronavirus-essential-travel/

What counts as essential travel during the Covid-19 lockdown?
11th May 2020
We’ve been asked by readers what counts as essential travel during the Covid-19 lockdown. New government guidance on lockdown measures was released on 11 May, and this article has been updated to reflect those changes.
The new guidance only applies to England, and to members of the public who are fit and healthy. It comes into force on 13 May.
 

yorkie

Forum Staff
Staff Member
Administrator
Joined
6 Jun 2005
Messages
67,439
Location
Yorkshire

CaptainHaddock

Established Member
Joined
10 Feb 2011
Messages
2,206
You can make journeys that are allowed by the legislation: https://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/regulation/6/made

You are asked to only use public transport if it's your only option.

The word "essential" is a misnomer; it's what is permitted that counts.

Indeed. My interpretation is that unless the reason for your journey is specifically forbidden then it must be permitted. So unless the legislation says "you cannot use public transport for leisure purposes" then you can!

Whether it's a morally decent thing to do is a completely different question....
 

111-111-1

Member
Joined
20 Jul 2019
Messages
170
So as I understand it, travelling by public transport for leisure is now permitted?

Yes but not encouraged whatsoever.

The Govermnent has continually stated that public transport is for essential journeys only and that other means of personal transport should be used if available.
 

bramling

Veteran Member
Joined
5 Mar 2012
Messages
17,686
Location
Hertfordshire / Teesdale
The "What if everyone did that?" argument is currently a weak one as I suspect right now very few people want to use public transport for leisure purposes as nothing's open for them to visit. The only people you're likely to get on, say, a Hope Valley stopper will be individuals or small groups having a walk in the hills, where they'll come into far less contact with others than they would if they'd met up in their local park. The tourists will continue to stay away because the attractions, pubs, cafes and shops remain shut so there's nothing much for them to do.

You also have to bear in mind that repeated surveys show many people have been so scared by the more extreme proprietors of the lockdown message that they would not want to use public transport until they feel it's safe to do so.

Yes there will come a time when everything opens and there'll be a risk of public transport being overrun. But right now I see no good reason for denying the small number of leisure travellers from travelling by train so long as they avoid peak times.

I must admit to getting sick of hearing this constant moaning about public transport. None of us has a God-given right to it, and at the moment it’s - rightly in my view - being focussed on essential journeys, with the intention of supporting the economy back to work. With multiple billions in public funds being haemorrhaged every week on the economy this has to take priority over what is, by definition, non-essential leisure use, and with many things not open the leisure use likely at the moment isn’t the sort which is going to contribute much to the economy.

Once things settle down and we see what trends emerge around how people travel to and from work (as well as other essential engagements) then no doubt they will look at what can be done to accommodate others.

At the moment Boris’s £100bn six-month bank holiday needs to be wrapped up, and public transport needs to be fully focussed on supporting that. We simply cannot have a situation where capacity isn’t there for work journeys, and nor can we have a situation where staff safety is compromised unnecessarily.

We also need to move away from this notion that “the trains are empty so there’s room for leisure use”. Not every train is empty for a start, and it won’t take many leisure journeys before they’re not empty again. Any empty space needs to be utilised for work-related journeys first.
 

yorksrob

Veteran Member
Joined
6 Aug 2009
Messages
38,828
Location
Yorks
Once things settle down and we see what trends emerge around how people travel to and from work (as well as other essential engagements) then no doubt they will look at what can be done to accommodate others.

They should give a clear timeframe from the back to work announcement in which to make an assessment and decide how to allocate non-work travel. Not some unspecified time waiting for some mystical group of non-existant workers.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.

Top