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Longest ECS movements?

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MotCO

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Even if you resource a route from both ends, there’s usually a significant mileage of traincrew travelling pass during the day either to balance things out or just to make efficient diagrams.

Does that make for efficient rostering of staff? If there is significant movement of staff sitting in carriages and not working, I assume they are being paid. If the staff are out of position, can they not meet an incoming service half way along the route and take over, with the other crew going back 'home'. Or am I doing the schedulers a disservice?
 
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Tomnick

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Does that make for efficient rostering of staff? If there is significant movement of staff sitting in carriages and not working, I assume they are being paid. If the staff are out of position, can they not meet an incoming service half way along the route and take over, with the other crew going back 'home'. Or am I doing the schedulers a disservice?
In itself, it's obviously inefficient - as you say, they're being paid to sit and do nothing. As part of the bigger picture, it might be the most efficient way of utilising the traincrew overall. The same goes for long layovers in the middle of a traincrew diagram - on the face of it, it's daft because you're paying someone to sit around for three or four hours, but it might still be the optimal solution overall - in making that diagram more efficient, you'd almost certainly make others less efficient or break them altogether.

You can't usually swap traincrew between two trains en-route - on most routes, they'll rarely pass each other at a station and even then they're unlikely to have enough dwell time for a double crew change. The exception is on routes such as the Heart of Wales, Cambrian Coast and Far North lines, where the combination of the single line (thus they do tend to cross at stations), infrequent service and generally longer dwell times (token exchange etc.) make it both necessary and tolerable.

Take the example of a long-ish route with a large traincrew depot at one end and a very small depot near the other end. There's a couple of units outstabled each night at the latter. There's two early turn crews who bring those units into service and trundle up and down the route with them in the morning. Ideally, they'd be relieved by their late turn equivalent at the end of their shift, but it doesn't really work like that in practice - trying to meet in the middle would make their days too long. There aren't enough traincrew there to justify two "middle" shifts there, and that'd just cause an imbalance later in the day anyway. The only answer, sometimes, is to have them be relieved by a crew from the large depot, and sometimes the only way to achieve that is for them (or another crew) to travel 'pass' out there at some point.
 

Romsey

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In the past there was a Laira to Neville Hill ECS move diagrammed for a Virgin HST. On selected Wednesday nights it was diverted to Lympstone Commando (via reversal at Exmouth for signalling / change ends purposes) to work the infamous unadvertised Lympstone-Manchester army special and then ECS to Leeds via Diggle.


Just a little personal safety comment...
Lympstone Commando is Royal Marines.
Linking them with the "brown lot" at Aldershot/Ludgershall might be somewhat unpleasant!
 

Class 170101

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Even if you resource a route from both ends, there’s usually a significant mileage of traincrew travelling pass during the day either to balance things out or just to make efficient diagrams. The current Nottingham - Liverpool service involves no ‘pass’ or otherwise unproductive moves other than on the morning empties (which also serves as a very effective route knowledge refresher over usually at least two and anything up to four lengthy diversionary routes) and a couple of bits between Nottingham and Sheffield. I’m pretty sure that the Skegness service, resourced from (nearly) both ends, is actually less efficient in that respect!

But does potentailly have an impact on NR access which they complain about on a regular basis (from experience). In a way I'm surprised EMR aren't required by NR to sign Crewe to Liverpool via Runcorn and / or Warrington Bank Quay as an alternative to Hope Valley. Indeed sometimes the 06:47 ex Liverpool starts at Warrington Central due to possessions on the Hope Valley.
 

Tomnick

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But does potentailly have an impact on NR access which they complain about on a regular basis (from experience). In a way I'm surprised EMR aren't required by NR to sign Crewe to Liverpool via Runcorn and / or Warrington Bank Quay as an alternative to Hope Valley. Indeed sometimes the 06:47 ex Liverpool starts at Warrington Central due to possessions on the Hope Valley.
I see that it’s booked to start from Warrington this week with the empties from Nottingham leaving later than normal, yet there’s no sign of a possession on the Hope Valley with freight running all night as is usually the case! Do they have weekday night possessions over there? I assumed all the routine stuff was normally done in a Saturday night possession. Other than the Hope Valley and Castlefield corridor, of course, there’s complete flexibility in which way 5M06 goes!
 

PHILIPE

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I see that it’s booked to start from Warrington this week with the empties from Nottingham leaving later than normal, yet there’s no sign of a possession on the Hope Valley with freight running all night as is usually the case! Do they have weekday night possessions over there? I assumed all the routine stuff was normally done in a Saturday night possession. Other than the Hope Valley and Castlefield corridor, of course, there’s complete flexibility in which way 5M06 goes!


It is an alteration due to the COVID Timetable
 

louis97

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It is an alteration due to the COVID Timetable
Are you sure? It ran as per the LTP schedules last week! I’m not sure what it’d achieve in COVID terms anyway.

It isn't a COVID timetable alteration.

I see that it’s booked to start from Warrington this week with the empties from Nottingham leaving later than normal, yet there’s no sign of a possession on the Hope Valley with freight running all night as is usually the case! Do they have weekday night possessions over there? I assumed all the routine stuff was normally done in a Saturday night possession. Other than the Hope Valley and Castlefield corridor, of course, there’s complete flexibility in which way 5M06 goes!

This week (and next week) there is a possession Tuesday-Friday mornings in the Chesterfield area until 0505, the possession requires 5M06 to run later.
 

PHILIPE

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It isn't a COVID timetable alteration.



This week (and next week) there is a possession Tuesday-Friday mornings in the Chesterfield area until 0505, the possession requires 5M06 to run later.

Then it shouldn't have appeared in the COVID Timetable on the EMR site
 

greatkingrat

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It is sensible for EMR to have all the timetable alterations in one place, even if some of them are for reasons other than Covid.
 

mmh

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It doesn't beat some of the examples given, but Avanti run Crewe to Holyhead and vice versa ECS quite a lot.
 

Tomnick

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It isn't a COVID timetable alteration.



This week (and next week) there is a possession Tuesday-Friday mornings in the Chesterfield area until 0505, the possession requires 5M06 to run later.
Ta, I’m about a hundred miles from my copy of this week’s WON so I couldn’t check for myself!
 

47827

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I think it was around 1994/95 period when that became the norm. Up until then Liverpool Regional Railways crew (I think there was an express link latterly) or something of that ilk covered the Norwich and Nottingham service early morning and late evening from/to Lime St to various locations east of Manchester. Most middle turns and the early stuff off Nottingham and back there at night was that depot meaning they had the bulk of the turns even back then. It did mean no ECS move into Liverpool at 03xx or 04xx though. Note that covers the first 2 departures I think since the first Nottingham arrival isn't until about 0830 at Lime St on the normal Mon to Saturday timetable. Note the 2150 ish Liverpool to Nottingham train formerly used to also run ECS all the way back to Nottingham with a few crew on board but sense was seen in later years to at least tap into a bit of late evening revenue off the big cities. The 1994 ish RR express link at Liverpool also had a hand in the Pennine services that stabled overnight at Liverpool presumably as far as Leeds/York. I recall I used to have a friend who was in said link just before I knew him well and he then transferred to Intercity West Coast. Think he's working his last few years now on the Euston circuit predominantly still but lost touch.

ECS moves of length?

By no means a record but there was a regular Weymouth to Longsight an odd summer in the late 90s formed off the the 0910 Liverpool to Weymouth with Mk2 stock. Latterly virgin saw sense and started M81 at 17xx from Weymouth instead with the set off o38 instead resting at Bournemouth to work a summer SO extra at 1918 to Wolverhampton. One year a similar ecs ran to Allerton ex Weymouth on the Saturday afternoon due to loco failure for M13 (northbound Weymouth to Liverpool) and was diverted via Bedworth and Nuneaton where it stopped to attach an 86 to the rear. The train loco was a Freightliner 47 I hadn't had for haulage and to my delight I hitched a lift with the set back to Allerton where I was dropped off for a bus home and early finish.

When Virgin had an allocation of Longsight out based hst sets, that were somewhat run down at times, maintenance was contracted to Laira for a good while and they would run between LG and Laira or come out of service at Piccadilly sometimes and make the lengthy run using XC crews to transfer them. As they often ran on peak days its a shame no deal was done between XC and WC virgin departments to run additional trains between Plymouth and Manchester as these could have been useful to ease overcrowding on other services, but I realise there were plenty of reasons that didn't arise. Indeed one summer these maintenance moves and subsequent set shortages were linked in with mass additional loco hauled runs between Euston and Holyhead (sometimes diesel South of Crewe partway or throughout on the Sunday morning boat connections when the OHL was off). Latterly a swap with XC saw some Manchester - Bournemouth - Edinburgh (and reverse) turns with 47s and stock instead. But that proved shambolic as the trains weren't given adequate schedules and often ran very late.

I had a hand in planning a few bigger ecs moves myself in past years for railtour stock and for work reasons I managed to travel on a fair few of those and other similar ones of up to and occasionally above 250 miles in each direction, but there's too many mention. One of the last lengthy ones I think was 47245 from Perth late one Sunday morning back via Beattock and Shap to Lancashire. A few runs between Lancashire and Norwich too, with one involving runs up to Holt on the North Norfolk railway.
 

Class 170101

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I see that it’s booked to start from Warrington this week with the empties from Nottingham leaving later than normal, yet there’s no sign of a possession on the Hope Valley with freight running all night as is usually the case! Do they have weekday night possessions over there? I assumed all the routine stuff was normally done in a Saturday night possession. Other than the Hope Valley and Castlefield corridor, of course, there’s complete flexibility in which way 5M06 goes!

Might be a Section 5 Maintenance Strategy Item blocking Chesterfield rather than Section 4
 

Wilts Wanderer

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Just a little personal safety comment...
Lympstone Commando is Royal Marines.
Linking them with the "brown lot" at Aldershot/Ludgershall might be somewhat unpleasant!

Bit like mentioning the Black Watch to my stepfather-in-law who is a retired colour sergeant of the Royal Scots (a regiment sadly no longer in existence.) When the BW returned from active service in Iraq during the conflict a few years ago they were briefly - and ill advisedly - quartered at a Royal Scots barracks outside Edinburgh. They weren’t offered so much as a coffee and in return refused to enter any of the buildings - after several hours alternative billeting was found! Armed forces rivalry makes the railways look like amateurs...
 

bunnahabhain

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More efficient - really? Sorry but that just seems crackers.
The most efficient way to resource a route is from one depot in the middle providing the traction and traincrew. Nottingham is perfectly placed to achieve this. The only reason a Norwich traincrew depot for Regional Railways Central was brought into existence was due to the Absolute Block signalling at the time between Ely and Norwich the route wasn't open for 24hrs a day, so the balancing moves to/from Nottingham or Cambridge during the night couldn't occur. Even in those days Nottingham men went to Great Yarmouth both ways.
 

bunnahabhain

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I think it was around 1994/95 period when that became the norm. Up until then Liverpool Regional Railways crew (I think there was an express link latterly) or something of that ilk covered the Norwich and Nottingham service early morning and late evening from/to Lime St to various locations east of Manchester. Most middle turns and the early stuff off Nottingham and back there at night was that depot meaning they had the bulk of the turns even back then. It did mean no ECS move into Liverpool at 03xx or 04xx though. Note that covers the first 2 departures I think since the first Nottingham arrival isn't until about 0830 at Lime St on the normal Mon to Saturday timetable. Note the 2150 ish Liverpool to Nottingham train formerly used to also run ECS all the way back to Nottingham with a few crew on board but sense was seen in later years to at least tap into a bit of late evening revenue off the big cities. The 1994 ish RR express link at Liverpool also had a hand in the Pennine services that stabled overnight at Liverpool presumably as far as Leeds/York. I recall I used to have a friend who was in said link just before I knew him well and he then transferred to Intercity West Coast. Think he's working his last few years now on the Euston circuit predominantly still but lost touch.
I did my road learning over Chat Moss with an old hand Liverpool man who was reminiscing about the days he worked the Liverpool to Norwich route. I recall he said he used to work some as far as Peterborough and he used to enjoy the route, but they "lost it because we went on strike too much".
 

norbitonflyer

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In my local area, there are 3 regularly scheduled ECS moves, though they aren't as long as some already mentioned. The most regular is Lincoln to Cleethorpes, weekday mornings to bring the Sprinter for the morning Cleethorpes to Lincoln/Newark, it's also the shortest at just over 47 miles.

The next is to bring a fresh unit for the Cleethorpes-Barton line. This usually runs twice a week, depending on maintenance needs, Sheffield to Cleethorpes and depending on the route taken could be up to 72¼ miles.

Once a week, on a Saturday evening, a TPE 185 travels ECS from Cleethorpes to Crofton via Doncaster, which is roughly 65 miles.

Again, they're not as impressive distances as some moves already posted, but over 70 miles ECS still seems pretty crazy! Once upon a time, there were unusual in service workings at either end of the day to get trains in the right place. And of course, once upon a time many moons ago, there were more suitably placed depots, and ECS moves were minimal!
Others in that area are the ECS to form the first IEP from Lincoln to London, and the ECS formed from the last one back. These run ECS to and from Leeds, again about 70 miles. This practice was also followed when there was just the one train each way per day, due to the visitor-hostile hours they worked (arrive Lincoln after supper time, return crack of dawn)
 
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