Longest passenger service Azuma?

hexagon789

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Points failure between York & Doncaster today, so obviously plenty of disruption. However this train on RTT caught my eye:


1403 ex-York starting from Doncaster and listed as 14 coaches?

Seems to be a 5-car 800 and 9-car 801. Is this actually correct or is this an error because of the disruption?

If it is genuine, is this the first 14-car Azuma formation to run carrying passengers?
 
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JonathanH

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If it is genuine, is this the first 14-car Azuma formation to run carrying passengers?
Unlikely to be genuine - more likely to be two different units allocated - the original and its substitute.

Link only shows 800209 now.

800209 turned short at Doncaster on 1N85 1306 London Kings Cross to York - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C91433/2021-07-15/detailed

Presumably the allocated 9-car is at York for 800209's original service. Indeed 801219 is shown allocated to 1Y88 1603 York to London Kings Cross
 

hexagon789

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Now says just 800209, so just a 5 coach service.

Unlikely to be genuine - more likely to be two different units allocated - the original and its substitute.

Link only shows 800209 now.

800209 turned short at Doncaster on 1N85 1306 London Kings Cross to York - https://www.realtimetrains.co.uk/service/gb-nr:C91433/2021-07-15/detailed

Presumably the allocated 9-car is at York for 800209's original service. Indeed 801219 is shown allocated to 1Y88 1603 York to London Kings Cross

Thanks both, I assumed an error/glitch thrown up by the disruption was the cause but I did like the idea they'd just tacked a 9-car on the back of a 5-car to make a 14-car lash-up to London.

Here's the original RTT page that prompted my query:

Screenshot_2021-07-15-17-40-49.png
 

800001

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When a set swap occurs in the genius system (used by lner to allocate stock), it can sometimes take a while to filter through to certain other systems.

So things like Realtraintimes will sometimes show 14 and 18 car formations, as it still recognises the previous allocation and the new one.

I've seen it before where it had 2 full fake mk4s showing for a service.

The give away is Lner will never run a 9+5 or a 9+9 azuma in traffic. The only extreme times will happen is if they use another set to rescue a failed unit.

Thanks both, I assumed an error/glitch thrown up by the disruption was the cause but I did like the idea they'd just tacked a 9-car on the back of a 5-car to make a 14-car lash-up to London.

Here's the original RTT page that prompted my query:

View attachment 99738
A bit more detail for you, 1N83 was heavily delayed at Colton, that should of formed 1Y86, however due to disruption, that was stepped back and formed 1Y88.
Set of 1N85 terminated at Doncaster, and Instead of its booked 1Y88, started 1Y86 from Doncaster (roughly 25 late).
 

DanNCL

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I would be surprised if many stations on the ECML can take a 14 car formation without it fouling any junctions. The only ones I can think of where it might be possible are Stevenage and Alnmouth.

14 and 18 car formations have both ran out of service, for recovering failed units, and for transit moves to/from Eastleigh for modifications in 2019/2020, where 14 car combinations of 5x800+9x801 and vice versa were used.

So things like Realtraintimes will sometimes show 14 and 18 car formations, as it still recognises the previous allocation and the new one.

I've seen it before where it had 2 full fake mk4s showing for a service.
I've also seen it show an 18 car formation formed of a 9 car 800 and a full Mark 4 set! The allocations on RTT are good when they work, but the second there's any disruption it becomes useless.
 

Peter Mugridge

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I've also seen it show an 18 car formation formed of a 9 car 800 and a full Mark 4 set! The allocations on RTT are good when they work, but the second there's any disruption it becomes useless.
This won't be RTT itself which is at fault but instead the systems that feed it.

I have on several occasions recently observed the platform screens in East Anglia announcing 6 car trains on Felixstowe, Lowestoft and Sheringham line services. It'll be the same thing - a unit swap on the diagram resulting in the system thinking both units are allocated to the service.

In all those instances, of course, only a single 3 car unit turned up. Six cars wouldn't fit most of the platforms anyway.
 

JonathanH

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the second there's any disruption it becomes useless
I'd imagine that by tracing the working, it is entirely feasible to work out which of the two units is actually allocated - as noted in this case, by the time anyone clicked on the reported train, the right unit was shown.
 

hexagon789

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When a set swap occurs in the genius system (used by lner to allocate stock), it can sometimes take a while to filter through to certain other systems.

So things like Realtraintimes will sometimes show 14 and 18 car formations, as it still recognises the previous allocation and the new one.

I've seen it before where it had 2 full fake mk4s showing for a service.

The give away is Lner will never run a 9+5 or a 9+9 azuma in traffic. The only extreme times will happen is if they use another set to rescue a failed unit.


A bit more detail for you, 1N83 was heavily delayed at Colton, that should of formed 1Y86, however due to disruption, that was stepped back and formed 1Y88.
Set of 1N85 terminated at Doncaster, and Instead of its booked 1Y88, started 1Y86 from Doncaster (roughly 25 late).
Thanks, I realised there was a set swap involved, the truncated nature of the working made that apparent.


I would be surprised if many stations on the ECML can take a 14 car formation without it fouling any junctions. The only ones I can think of where it might be possible are Stevenage and Alnmouth.
I think some could, Doncaster has a long up platform from memory.

If it was showing as 2×9 I would have immediately ruled it out as an error, but 14-car didn't seem quite as fanciful. As it was I did suspect it was an error but I wanted confirmation either way just in case ;)
 

superjohn

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I have seen similar on Greater Anglia departure boards with a Peterborough to Ipswich service showing as seven coaches. As the class 755 units involved are not yet permitted to operate on multiple in passenger service it can’t have been real. It must have been a four swapped for three or vice versa at some point in the diagram.

Back on LNER I have seen the opposite with a ten car Azuma reported on RTT as a five car but correctly shown on station boards.

Presumably the details come from different feeds that are individually accurate but don’t always reconcile correctly with each other.
 

JonathanH

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Your 14 - raise you to 18.


I suspect this will be corrected before it gets too far towards Aberdeen. Guess it was a set swap.
Looks like 800106 was originally allocated working in from Leeds and replaced by 800108 (which arrived at Kings Cross empty - 3N85 not shown on RTT). I think the story with 800108 is that it was sent from Bounds Green when the inward working for 1N85 1306 London Kings Cross to York failed at Grantham but then held back in the disruption to work the Aberdeen service as 800106 was caught up.

Some substantial disruption there.
 
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800001

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Looks like 800106 was originally allocated working in from Leeds and replaced by 800108 (which arrived at Kings Cross empty - 3N85 not shown on RTT). I think the story with 800108 is that it was sent from Bounds Green when the inward working for 1N85 1306 London Kings Cross to York failed at Grantham but then held back in the disruption to work the Aberdeen service as 800106 was caught up.

Some substantial disruption there.
You are correct in everything you just said. 1A25 which would of formed 1W20 was stuck in back log of trains whilst GTR 1T23 carried out a Controlled evacation between Hadley Wood and New Barnet, as a result of overhead Line damage on the UP Fast.

To note, genius, trust etc are showing this correct as a 9 car, 800108, external sites like RTT still showing as a 18 car.
 

hexagon789

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Your 14 - raise you to 18.


I suspect this will be corrected before it gets too far towards Aberdeen. Guess it was a set swap.
If I saw 18 I would have immediately ruled it out as too long, but for some reason I thought 14 might have been alright but was still sceptical. The main reason I posted this thread to start with! :)
 

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