Looking down on people paying to travel 1st class: Why?

[Iskra]

If someone's legitimately sat in first class, they've earnt the right, one way or another.

Whether that's through a highly paid job, a company expense policy which allows it, booking well in advance (being organised), shrewd ticket-buying or whatever.

I have thought very hard about posting in this thread as my views aren't popular. I have no issues with first class. I do have an issue with many posters here getting cheap first class and then whining about standards not being good enough. I get grumpy because next year my season ticket will cost me £6K plus. For that I, often, don't even get a seat and find it galling when people who, on the face of it, contribute substantially less than me into the system complain about not getting an extra rasher of bacon or moan about a second class pleb daring to use their first class toilet.

So what would I do about it? I would cut first class provision ( and get rid of it entirely on commuter trains) and transfer the majority of the space on intercity trains into standard class accommodation. I would increase the price and make it a true premium product aimed at business people and offer a true business class service. I would remove cheap advance tickets and remove railcard discounts in first class. At the same time I would improve the standards in cattle class and I would offer free rewards to people paying the most. Got a £6k season ticket sir? Would you like a free cup of tea? If you are on a cheap ticket you get nowt.

What many here miss is that for most of us in the real world first class is a treat not a right. Perhaps show some self awareness and think about that next time you complain about something you get for free.

PS don't tell me you HAVE to travel first class to do any work on a train. That is utter balderdash. I travel all round the country for work, and I always manage to work on my lap top in second class. What would make it easier is free wifi, more plugs and access to some kind of decent waiting room at the station.

Basically, anyone contributes less than £6k a year/less than you, their opinion is null and void? Your ticket probably provides excellent value on a pence per mile basis for a flexible ticket, compared to what most rail users receive, perhaps you should keep quiet about the poor service you get. You get what you pay for after all, to use your own logic...

If you pay for a first class ticket, you are entitled to the full service, no matter what you paid. Anyone who doesn't get what they paid for, is quite entitled to complain.

There is a lot of bitterness within the rail community. It's quite sad really.

 

[Failed Unit]

If someone's sat in first class, they've earnt the right

The pendant in me after experiencing many lines is that isn’t the case. They often just sit down knowing that no-one will challenge them. Or that was certainly the case between Croy and Glasgow and on 0822 WGC - London kx (when it was 317 and 387 operated). Although on the 387s it didn’t really have 1st class anyway.

 

[Bletchleyite]

The pendant in me after experiencing many lines is that isn’t the case. They often just sit down knowing that no-one will challenge them. Or that was certainly the case between Croy and Glasgow and on 0822 WGC - London kx (when it was 317 and 387 operated). Although on the 387s it didn’t really have 1st class anyway.

Yes, but we aren't talking about fare-dodgers complaining about the lack of a cup of tea or whatever (is anyone *that* brazen?), we're talking about people who have paid the fare the TOC asked for. It doesn't make any difference that someone else might have paid 10 times as much.

 

[37047]

I pay a couple of thousand for my annual season ticket and struggle to see the point of first on my usual overcrowded GN 387s (as it is identical to standard). I am frequently without a seat for at least half of my commute home and first is often full and standing with the overflow from standard.
That said today, I'm travelling first class for the first time (and at my own expense) as I fancied a treat on my return from Inverness to London (well... INV to KLN via KGX, but I wanted to do the full Highland Chieftain HST run). A mix of people, probably more skewed towards retirees than the population of standard. The only person I'm looking down on is the woman across from me who hasn't stopped whinging and complaining since she boarded (at Gleneagles). Not enough breakfast options, bacon roll not good enough (but she ordered it anyway and her husband ate his and hers), coffee bad, not enough biscuit choices, unhappy that the diet coke was only loaded at Edinburgh so she had to wait for it, not enough ice. When offered the full range of hot and cold lunches, complained that the wrap sounded horrible, ordered it anyway, complained more. How dare one of the toilets be out of service, not enough leg room, how dare the service be delayed (a fire and a fatality are not good enough reasons)... Feet up on the seat opposite. I've enjoyed everything aside from listening to her. Noise cancelling headphones and it would have been close to perfect.
While I can't afford to travel in 1st regularly, I've enjoyed it as a treat, and if I had the money (and the time), I'd do it more often. Wouldn't judge anyone for doing the same - their money, their choice.

 

[Bletchleyite]

You get vexatious complainants anywhere - Angry People in Local Newspapers has a good selection of them, usually when they are banned from the businesses they are complaining about (as if those businesses can't meet their needs, why use them?)

OTOH, things like complete non-provision of refreshments, failed aircon, leaky roof etc are a valid complaint.

 

[DarloRich]

Who's choice is is to have a job and a home so far apart that they need to spend £6000pa on a season ticket?

Perhaps you shouldn't complain about situations that you have put yourself in with your own lifestyle choices.

Ouch... Bletchley to R1256 is £5,656.00 - that's gone up a tad! £4,648.00 if you can use Shanks's pony in London though...

Bletchley to London is not an outrageous commute, and a mortgage on a typical small house there plus the season ticket is way cheaper than a mortgage on a similar house in London, which is why those 12-car peak services are not carrying fresh air.

That said it is a lifestyle choice, just like travelling First Class.

You are right it. It is a lifestyle choice. I could have stayed at home in Darlo and signed on, claimed housing benefit and sponged because there wasn't much work but I thought that wasn't the right thing to do. I thought doing a job and contributing to society was the better choice. Perhaps I was wrong.

My last word on the matter - long screeds of text are easier to read if not presented in a big solid block.

Darlo, by my calculations, and assuming you go to work 45-46 weeks of the year allowing for holidays and bank holidays, your £6K works out at about £27 a day, or £13.50 each way. Doesn’t sound too bad when you put it like that!

It is, but I cant pay that £27 on a daily basis? No. I cant. Can I get a discount for paying up front or booking that season ticket in advance. No, I cant. I have to find all the money up front. Do you have to find all the money for your discount travel for an entire year upfront?

If someone's legitimately sat in first class, they've earnt the right, one way or another.

Whether that's through a highly paid job, a company expense policy which allows it, booking well in advance (being organised), shrewd ticket-buying or whatever.


Basically, anyone contributes less than £6k a year/less than you, their opinion is null and void? Your ticket probably provides excellent value on a pence per mile basis for a flexible ticket, compared to what most rail users receive, perhaps you should keep quiet about the poor service you get. You get what you pay for after all, to use your own logic...

If you pay for a first class ticket, you are entitled to the full service, no matter what you paid. Anyone who doesn't get what they paid for, is quite entitled to complain.

There is a lot of bitterness within the rail community. It's quite sad really.

So no free cup of tea then?

It didn't take long for the first person to complain about being criticised! I also notice that any view that doesn't meet your own is bitterness. I pay a lot of money. I bet I pay more than you. My view is that those who pay the most should be rewarded. Those paying nowt should get nowt. Is that so outlandish?

Also could you show me where there is an option to spread the cost of my season ticket? Can I pay for it on a monthly or daily basis? Perhaps I could be "organised" and pay up front for next year, now, in exchange for a discount. Oh no, I have to find £6k up front in cash on day one. Do you have to do that with all of your travel? How many cheapo advances do you have to buy to cover that money?

Don't pretend you are better than me because you have flexibility or a railcard!

 

[bramling]

I have thought very hard about posting in this thread as my views aren't popular. I have no issues with first class. I do have an issue with many posters here getting cheap first class and then whining about standards not being good enough. I get grumpy because next year my season ticket will cost me £6K plus. For that I, often, don't even get a seat and find it galling when people who, on the face of it, contribute substantially less than me into the system complain about not getting an extra rasher of bacon or moan about a second class pleb daring to use their first class toilet.

So what would I do about it? I would cut first class provision ( and get rid of it entirely on commuter trains) and transfer the majority of the space on intercity trains into standard class accommodation. I would increase the price and make it a true premium product aimed at business people and offer a true business class service. I would remove cheap advance tickets and remove railcard discounts in first class. At the same time I would improve the standards in cattle class and I would offer free rewards to people paying the most. Got a £6k season ticket sir? Would you like a free cup of tea? If you are on a cheap ticket you get nowt.

What many here miss is that for most of us in the real world first class is a treat not a right. Perhaps show some self awareness and think about that next time you complain about something you get for free.

PS don't tell me you HAVE to travel first class to do any work on a train. That is utter balderdash. I travel all round the country for work, and I always manage to work on my lap top in second class. What would make it easier is free wifi, more plugs and access to some kind of decent waiting room at the station.

Little if any disagreement from me on all this. I completely agree that 1st should be a premium, with premium prices to match (with the possible exception of weekend first - acknowledging the significant reduction in business travel at weekends). I find it rather disquieting that person A can book in advance and pay a fraction of the price of person B on a walk-up first ticket. Likewise I don't really get all the fuss about freebies.

 

[Iskra]

You are right it. It is a lifestyle choice. I could have stayed at home in Darlo and signed on, claimed housing benefit and sponged because there wasn't much work but I thought that wasn't the right thing to do. I thought doing a job and contributing to society was the better choice. Perhaps I was wrong.



It is, but I cant pay that £27 on a daily basis? No. I cant. Can I get a discount for paying up front or booking that season ticket in advance. No, I cant. I have to find all the money up front. Do you have to find all the money for your discount travel for an entire year upfront?



So no free cup of tea then?

It didn't take long for the first person to complain about being criticised! I also notice that any view that doesn't meet your own is bitterness. I pay a lot of money. I bet I pay more than you. My view is that those who pay the most should be rewarded. Those paying nowt should get nowt.

Also could you show me where there is an option to spread the cost of my season ticket? Can I pay for it on a monthly or daily basis? Perhaps I could be "organised" and pay up front for next year, now, in exchange for a discount. Oh no, I have to find £6k up front in cash on day one. Do you have to do that with all of your travel? How many cheapo advances do you have to buy to cover that money.

Don't pretend you are better than me because you have flexibility or a railcard!

That's fine. I hope you give your seat up every night to those on board who have paid more than you for the same journey.

Yes, I pay up front. I bought a car. It cost more than £6k. You have the choice of paying daily or weekly, but you chose to pay up front to get it cheaper and other benefits.

And if I choose to upgrade to first class for a leisure journey, that's because I choose to do that with my money, instead of smoking, drinking lots or doing whatever else other people choose to do with their money instead.

I'm not complaining, just pointing out your hypocrisy. Anyway, I'm off to join a 2 car 142 with a leaky roof and missing seat pads for a journey between two of the countries biggest cities. No 12 car formations with air con, and first class provision (how will I cope?) in the provinces...

 

[Bletchleyite]

You are right it. It is a lifestyle choice. I could have stayed at home in Darlo and signed on, claimed housing benefit and sponged because there wasn't much work but I thought that wasn't the right thing to do. I thought doing a job and contributing to society was the better choice. Perhaps I was wrong.

Eh? Last time I checked you worked in MK. Has your job been relocated, or have you taken a promotion or similar? The former is perhaps unfortunate (not least because of the £6K and the working day being 3 hours longer) though there is tons of employment in MK itself and surrounds if you preferred not to commute. If the latter, well, that's a lifestyle choice. Not saying it's the wrong one, but it's a choice.

 

[R G NOW.]

I loved my first class ride from Gloucester to Paddington back in 2012 when I got a first class ticket, like a kid in a toy shop I was. I had a lovely at seat service with a piece of cake and all the cups of tea that I could drink, lovely and people did not look down on me. My fare was 103 pounds anytime return.

 

[DarloRich]

Eh? Last time I checked you worked in MK. Has your job been relocated, or have you taken a promotion or similar? The former is perhaps unfortunate (not least because of the £6K and the working day being 3 hours longer) though there is tons of employment in MK itself and surrounds if you preferred not to commute. If the latter, well, that's a lifestyle choice. Not saying it's the wrong one, but it's a choice.

A slight/sideways (?) promotion & I am now required to work between the two. I like my job and I don't even mind paying for the travel. It is a lot of money but by being sensible you can put the money aside during the year.

BTW: I don't dislike first class travel, it is very pleasant. I simply point out that for most of us it is an occasional treat because we have to pay full price and/or travel at short notice I find it galling when people paying much less complain about a service that I would love to receive even a fraction of.

I'm not complaining, just pointing out your hypocrisy. Anyway, I'm off to join a 2 car 142 with a leaky roof and missing seat pads for a journey between two of the countries biggest cities. No 12 car formations with air con, and first class provision (how will I cope?) in the provinces...

That journey will, of course, cost you less, will carry fewer people shorter distances and anything above about 5 cars would be wasted. But that is another argument.

That's fine. I hope you give your seat up every night to those on board who have paid more than you for the same journey.

Unlikely if they get on after me!

Yes, I pay up front. I bought a car. It cost more than £6k.

I don't have a car. It would be a waste of money. All of my travel is by train. Most of it isn't covered by my season ticket.

 

[Failed Unit]

Back in the good / bad old days I used to treat myself to a very cheap upgrade for part of the journey. Buy a meal in the restaurant. Enjoy the food then return to Standard after York once the trains was quieter. Shame restaurant are gone now.

 

[R G NOW.]

Do GWR Still have the weekend first upgrade?. This is where people in standard can buy an excess ticket and then walk into a first class carriage. I haven't seen it advertised lately. Under British rail you would always see posters on train station walls informing passengers. Some people sat in first class on a standard ticket and it was upgraded by the train manager.

 

[nlogax]

Do GWR Still have the weekend first upgrade?.

They do. https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/tickets-railcards-and-season-tickets/weekend-upgrades

 

[AM9]

My last word on the matter - long screeds of text are easier to read if not presented in a big solid block.

Darlo, by my calculations, and assuming you go to work 45-46 weeks of the year allowing for holidays and bank holidays, your £6K works out at about £27 a day, or £13.50 each way. Doesn’t sound too bad when you put it like that!

My last words. I disagree, obviously I don't have as much trouble reading (and understanding words) as you

 

[sheff1]

I find it rather disquieting that person A can book in advance and pay a fraction of the price of person B on a walk-up first ticket.

Presumably both A & B have paid a price they are content/able to pay. Exactly the same situation will arise in standard class every day.

I don't get why such a pricing policy (which is not just found on rail) should worry you, but if it does you have my sympathy.

Likewise I don't really get all the fuss about freebies.

I can agree with that. I much prefer to pay for high quality refreshments than be offered mediocre complimentary items .... although the latter is preferable to being asked to pay inflated prices for mediocre stuff which seems to be the policy on some TOCs.

 

[Iskra]

A slight/sideways (?) promotion & I am now required to work between the two. I like my job and I don't even mind paying for the travel. It is a lot of money but by being sensible you can put the money aside during the year.

BTW: I don't dislike first class travel, it is very pleasant. I simply point out that for most of us it is an occasional treat because we have to pay full price and/or travel at short notice I find it galling when people paying much less complain about a service that I would love to receive even a fraction of.



That journey will, of course, cost you less, will carry fewer people shorter distances and anything above about 5 cars would be wasted. But that is another argument.



Unlikely if they get on after me!



I don't have a car. It would be a waste of money. All of my travel is by train. Most of it isn't covered by my season ticket.

Not having it, on pence per mile you have yourself a bargain compared to other passengers making the same journey. Yet you’re complaining.

Meanwhile you’re lashing out at people who pay less for first class than others but complain about it.

You are a total hypocrite.

 

[R G NOW.]

They do. https://www.gwr.com/plan-journey/tickets-railcards-and-season-tickets/weekend-upgrades

Well, what an idiot I am, why didn't I think of looking on there, must of been the weather and the problem with my mothers electricity meter.

 

[Taunton]

I do have an issue with many posters here getting cheap first class and then whining about standards not being good enough. I get grumpy because next year my season ticket will cost me £6K plus. For that I, often, don't even get a seat and find it galling when people who, on the face of it, contribute substantially less than me into the system complain about not getting an extra rasher of bacon or moan about a second class pleb daring to use their first class toilet.

So what would I do about it? I would cut first class provision ( and get rid of it entirely on commuter trains) and transfer the majority of the space on intercity trains into standard class accommodation. I would increase the price and make it a true premium product aimed at business people .

For once I agree with you. Unexpected, but there we are.

I do a lot of business travel outward from London, so out early mornings, First mostly empty, return evenings, First reasonably well filled, Standard often standing. Euston to Birmingham, return when my meeting is finished (ie anytime) is £180 (£250 first class). Nobody in my office gets first class. But there are passengers in the same train in First doing London to Edinburgh who have paid substantially less than that. What are they even doing on a London to Birmingham service? Well, since they were through routed with Birmingham to Edinburgh, Virgin have launched a revenue raid on LNER services, and this is marketed to through passengers, cheaply.

Constant issue of First Class proportion far too large. The business world does NOT pay expenses now for normal First Class tickets. Nor would they do so for a proposed premium product. Even MPs no longer get First Class. Thus it seems to get partially filled up with notably cheaper advances, paying far less than me, just to try to do something with the otherwise wasted seats. Those who have paid the most are commonly those left standing.

Long ago on Edinburgh-Glasgow the first class was unused, except for railway management entitled to such passes who commuted between the two (a lot do) and used it as a private club while there was standing in the rest of the train. One of them opined to me that because of the way statistics were done then, the guard only reported loadings in each class, bums on seats, not what revenue was being generated.

 

[Iskra]

For once I agree with you. Unexpected, but there we are.

I do a lot of business travel outward from London, so out early mornings, First mostly empty, return evenings, First reasonably well filled, Standard often standing. Euston to Birmingham, return when my meeting is finished (ie anytime) is £180 (£250 first class). Nobody in my office gets first class. But there are passengers in the same train in First doing London to Edinburgh who have paid substantially less than that. What are they even doing on a London to Birmingham service? Well, since they were through routed with Birmingham to Edinburgh, Virgin have launched a revenue raid on LNER services, and this is marketed to through passengers, cheaply.

Constant issue of First Class proportion far too large. The business world does NOT pay expenses now for normal First Class tickets. Nor would they do so for a proposed premium product. Even MPs no longer get First Class. Thus it seems to get partially filled up with notably cheaper advances, paying far less than me, just to try to do something with the otherwise wasted seats. Those who have paid the most are commonly those left standing.

Long ago on Edinburgh-Glasgow the first class was unused, except for railway management entitled to such passes who commuted between the two (a lot do) and used it as a private club while there was standing in the rest of the train. One of them opined to me that because of the way statistics were done then, the guard only reported loadings in each class, bums on seats, not what revenue was being generated.

Your problem is with

A) Your companies expense policy
B) TOC’s revenue management strategy
C) Over-provision of first class on trains.

Is this the problem of the people who buy the ‘cheap’ first class advances? You’d do the same in their shoes, wouldn’t you?

I dont see too many genuinely cheap first class tickets anymore (maybe only on TP). Even if they are cheap upgrades, that’s benefiting STD passengers by creating more room there.

I’ve travelled first class a fair bit and there are still plenty of business travellers in there.

 

[Tetchytyke]

That said it is a lifestyle choice, just like travelling First Class.

My lifestyle choice was to come back north, take a 40% pay cut, and still have more money left over each month. My 4-bed detached house here costs quite a lot less than my tiny flat by the canal in Apsley did.

And my London employer- part of the University of London- gave me an interest-free loan for my Hemel-Z1256 annual season.

Paying a load less tax, I'm not sure that's quite the behaviour that the government wants to incentivise!

 

[Tetchytyke]

But there are passengers in the same train in First doing London to Edinburgh who have paid substantially less than that.

Don't tell anyone, but there are people in standard class who have paid a lot less than that. Even with walk-up tickets.

When I'm in London on business I'll book a train an hour or two after the meeting, use advance tickets, and justify first class as a saving to my employer (or fork out the marginal difference on advances). If I'm coming back at 5pm it makes no odds whether I wait a bit first, I'll still be home long after the kids are in bed.

 

[trainophile]

You are right it. It is a lifestyle choice. I could have stayed at home in Darlo and signed on, claimed housing benefit and sponged because there wasn't much work but I thought that wasn't the right thing to do. I thought doing a job and contributing to society was the better choice. Perhaps I was wrong.



It is, but I cant pay that £27 on a daily basis? No. I cant. Can I get a discount for paying up front or booking that season ticket in advance. No, I cant. I have to find all the money up front. Do you have to find all the money for your discount travel for an entire year upfront?



So no free cup of tea then?

It didn't take long for the first person to complain about being criticised! I also notice that any view that doesn't meet your own is bitterness. I pay a lot of money. I bet I pay more than you. My view is that those who pay the most should be rewarded. Those paying nowt should get nowt. Is that so outlandish?

Also could you show me where there is an option to spread the cost of my season ticket? Can I pay for it on a monthly or daily basis? Perhaps I could be "organised" and pay up front for next year, now, in exchange for a discount. Oh no, I have to find £6k up front in cash on day one. Do you have to do that with all of your travel? How many cheapo advances do you have to buy to cover that money?

Don't pretend you are better than me because you have flexibility or a railcard!

I was nodding in a certain amount of sympathy until your last sentence. I haven’t seen a single post on this thread where anyone has made out that they are better than anyone else.

It has a slight suggestion of a chip on the shoulder.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I was nodding in a certain amount of sympathy until your last sentence. I haven’t seen a single post on this thread where anyone has made out that they are better than anyone else.

It has a slight suggestion of a chip on the shoulder.

FWIW, I'm surprised, given who I think @DarloRich works for and their size, that they don't have a season ticket loan scheme. It's usual for large companies to.

 

[Taunton]

Your problem is with

A) Your companies expense policy
B) TOC’s revenue management strategy
C) Over-provision of first class on trains.

A is unlikely as I am one of those responsible for it.
B is more a problem with a couldn't care approach to their highest paying customers.
C is indeed an issue, quite extraordinary it continues.

 

[trainophile]

I don’t know what Darlo does or for whom he works, but yes it crossed my mind too that most big businesses generally offer an interest free loan for travel expenses, especially in areas where commutes can be so astronomical.

 

[Bletchleyite]

A is unlikely as I am one of those responsible for it.
B is more a problem with a couldn't care approach to their highest paying customers.
C is indeed an issue, quite extraordinary it continues.

Is it? It continues because it is profitable (and is part of franchise agreements). If it wasn't I'm sure it would soon go.

Interesting, though, that Sleasyjet and Eireflop don't consider it worthwhile (even though both have premium service packages these days). Spirit do, but I think that's only because they got some second hand planes that happened to have business class seats in them so it was better to flog them as that than pay to swap them.

 

[xotGD]

OK, so tomorrow I shall be travelling in First Class, as I found an Advance that complies with our expenses policy.

As it happens I am sat in a hotel restaurant enjoying 'free' food and gin. Except it isn't free - the price is being away from home for the night.

Those who think folk like me enjoy this expanses paid lark need to reconsider. (OK, I enjoyed the pair of 73s, but only cos I'm a crank!)

 

[Bletchleyite]

Those who think folk like me enjoy this expanses paid lark need to reconsider. (OK, I enjoyed the pair of 73s, but only cos I'm a crank!)

I do enjoy business travel, but only if costs are not cut to the absolute bone.

 

[Starmill]

Basically, anyone contributes less than £6k a year/less than you, their opinion is null and void?

Exactly. Perhaps that £6k season ticket being so reasonably priced is the reason my Off Peak ticket with a railcard has gone up so much? Maybe they should be paying a little bit more per journey to compensate me for the huge price increases vested on us in recent years?

The argument that First Class isn't a right is total bull too. First Class is a right - to those who've chosen to pay for First Class tickets.