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Looking down on people paying to travel 1st class: Why?

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SteveM70

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I do enjoy business travel, but only if costs are not cut to the absolute bone.

And that will always be a tightrope that companies have to walk. I work for a company that employs over 75,000 people and our policy is standard class only using advances wherever possible, £80 max for a hotel (more in London I think) and £20 max for dinner with no alcoholic drinks allowed. I don’t have a problem with that, though many of my colleagues do. Ultimately if I want to go to the pub, I don’t see why work should pay for it.
 
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Bletchleyite

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And that will always be a tightrope that companies have to walk. I work for a company that employs over 75,000 people and our policy is standard class only using advances wherever possible, £80 max for a hotel (more in London I think) and £20 max for dinner with no alcoholic drinks allowed. I don’t have a problem with that, though many of my colleagues do. Ultimately if I want to go to the pub, I don’t see why work should pay for it.

I would say "no alcoholic drinks allowed" is unduly stingy and penny pinching, to be honest. One alcoholic drink with a meal (or two at a push) is quite reasonable in my book and often costs the same as a soft drink anyway. A night on the lash rather less reasonable. Just give an agreed amount for dinner and people can spend as they see fit.

Similarly I don't mind Premier Inns, Ibises etc (indeed those are my preferred chains if booking for myself - the former in the UK, the latter outside), but if you want me to go away on business a Travelodge is just not acceptable. They are dirty, poorly maintained and uncomfortable. If the accommodation is of a lower standard than an average house, it is unacceptable to require it.

At least in the UK you don't get the US thing of asking people to share rooms. I'd refuse to travel in such a case.

Similarly if the business wants to save money by having me come home at 9pm on an Advance instead of 5pm on an Anytime, best be willing to cough up for dinner out of the savings.

While people do vary (I probably spend more on walk-ups than average people might on Advances these days) I think the principle that the policy should be what a reasonable average person would do if it was out of their own pocket is about right (the man using his own Oyster Card on the Clapham omnibus?). Some companies go way, way beyond that and are downright unreasonable.

Add to that, anything that is downright unsafe (e.g. asking staff to drive to the airport at 3am instead of taking a taxi) is totally unacceptable.
 
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AM9

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Presumably both A & B have paid a price they are content/able to pay. Exactly the same situation will arise in standard class every day.

I don't get why such a pricing policy (which is not just found on rail) should worry you, but if it does you have my sympathy. ...
I really don't understand why so many here go on and on about advance tickets being cheaper than walk-on. If a passenger is prepared to give up the flexibility of time of travel, which trains and any ability to travel short, they are just as entitled to travel as anybody else. I have only travelled about 10% of my irregular journeys* on advance tickets, - I am normally happy to pay for walk-up fares and not have to worry about catching specific trains. WHY SHOULD I be racked with envy or worse just because somebody has paid less than me. It's the same with airline tickets, I don't travel on 'Y' class economy, usually because I'm not expecting to cancel/change my time of travel, but some of the restrictions on the cheaper tickets aren't worth saving a bit of money on, especially if it's a holiday.
* most of my rail travel is from St Albans to London for which I normally get a Travelcard for flexibility.
 

SteveM70

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I would say "no alcoholic drinks allowed" is unduly stingy and penny pinching, to be honest. One alcoholic drink with a meal (or two at a push) is quite reasonable in my book and often costs the same as a soft drink anyway. A night on the lash rather less reasonable.

Similarly I don't mind Premier Inns, Ibises etc (indeed those are my preferred chains if booking for myself - the former in the UK, the latter outside), but if you want me to go away on business a Travelodge is just not acceptable. They are dirty, poorly maintained and uncomfortable. If the accommodation is of a lower standard than an average house, it is unacceptable to require it.

At least in the UK you don't get the US thing of asking people to share rooms. I'd refuse to travel in such a case.

Similarly if the business wants to save money by having me come home at 9pm on an Advance instead of 5pm on an Anytime, best be willing to cough up for dinner out of the savings.

While people do vary (I probably spend more on walk-ups than average people might on Advances these days) I think the principle that the policy should be what a reasonable average person would do if it was out of their own pocket is about right (the man using his own Oyster Card on the Clapham omnibus?). Some companies go way, way beyond that and are downright unreasonable.

Add to that, anything that is downright unsafe (e.g. asking staff to drive to the airport at 3am instead of taking a taxi) is totally unacceptable.

as I said, it’s about balance, and I suppose also having simple easy to enforce rules (although I know people who circumvent them by buying a Tesco meal deal and then spending their expenses on beer and getting a very vague receipt)

The only time I’ve objected is when I used to work for a cash and carry and we were required to stay at customer hotels/pubs whenever possible. Some of them were proper fleapits and eventually half a dozen of us frequent travellers led a mutiny and common sense prevails. I can remember a place near Bristol where I got there about 11pm, dog tired having driven over 300 miles, and ended up sleeping fully clothed because it was filthy.
 

Bletchleyite

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The only time I’ve objected is when I used to work for a cash and carry and we were required to stay at customer hotels/pubs whenever possible. Some of them were proper fleapits and eventually half a dozen of us frequent travellers led a mutiny and common sense prevails. I can remember a place near Bristol where I got there about 11pm, dog tired having driven over 300 miles, and ended up sleeping fully clothed because it was filthy.

That's why I don't like Travelodges. I would happily stay in an Ibis Budget because while they are basic (far more basic than Travelodges) they are properly maintained and cleaned. There's no excuse for dirty, poorly-maintained hotels at any level of the market.
 

Bletchleyite

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as I said, it’s about balance, and I suppose also having simple easy to enforce rules

I don't think "you can spend up to £20 a day on a meal and drinks of whatever kind taken during that meal" is hard to enforce. You stick more than £20 worth of receipts in, you get £20.

If someone wants a plate of chips and 3 pints, who cares?
 

SteveM70

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That's why I don't like Travelodges. I would happily stay in an Ibis Budget because while they are basic (far more basic than Travelodges) they are properly maintained and cleaned. There's no excuse for dirty, poorly-maintained hotels at any level of the market.

Some Travelodges are fine - some of them a lot better than fine - but it’s working out which is which that’s difficult.
 

Hadders

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Some of the refurbished Travelodges are very decent these days but some of the original, the unrefurbished ones are awful.

A few weeks back I needed to travel to County Durham on business. Unfortunately the train wasn't an option due to the time I needed to be there and where I needed to get to was a good half hour drive from the station.

I was working in London the day before so decided to go home a bit early, have something to eat and then drive half way there, have a decent nights sleep and then get up early the next day and drive the rest of the way to Co Durham. I booked a Travelodge on the A1 near Doncaster, a perfect location for me and very cheap.

I now know why it was cheap - got out of the car to needles and drug paraphernalia and as I walked across the car park to the hotel a rat ran in front of me!
 

Bletchleyite

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Some Travelodges are fine - some of them a lot better than fine - but it’s working out which is which that’s difficult.

In my experience the newer ones are, but they quickly go to rack and ruin because they skimp on cleaning and maintenance. Some are quite interesting, I stayed in the one in Dundee which was in a big old building and the room was massive (I do occasionally use them when other options are outrageously expensive).
 

SteveM70

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I don't think "you can spend up to £20 a day on a meal and drinks of whatever kind taken during that meal" is hard to enforce. You stick more than £20 worth of receipts in, you get £20.

If someone wants a plate of chips and
3 pints, who cares?

True. But they argue that it’s a luxury, and that we should be minimising spend


Some of the refurbished Travelodges are very decent these days but some of the original, the unrefurbished ones are awful.

A few weeks back I needed to travel to County Durham on business. Unfortunately the train wasn't an option due to the time I needed to be there and where I needed to get to was a good half hour drive from the station.

I was working in London the day before so decided to go home a bit early, have something to eat and then drive half way there, have a decent nights sleep and then get up early the next day and drive the rest of the way to Co Durham. I booked a Travelodge on the A1 near Doncaster, a perfect location for me and very cheap.

I now know why it was cheap - got out of the car to needles and drug paraphernalia and as I walked across the car park to the hotel a rat ran in front of me!

In my experience Travelodges at service stations and near motorways are nearly universally awful
 

Bletchleyite

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True. But they argue that it’s a luxury, and that we should be minimising spend

It's not, though, because in most places a pint of Coke costs about the same as a pint of best bitter.

If the company can't afford to just cough up the full 20 quid against receipts for something consumed in a restaurant or similar on the correct day, they understand the price of everything and the value of nothing, and I wouldn't want to work for them.
 

trainophile

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True. But they argue that it’s a luxury, and that we should be minimising spend

In my experience Travelodges at service stations and near motorways are nearly universally awful

I always stay in Travelodges that are in walking distance of a railway station, and haven’t had any cause to complain. They beat Premier Inns in one way - you can help yourself to as many teabags, coffee, milk pots as you want, there’s usually a supply of them in the reception area. Beats having to look for a staff member and wait while they unlock a cupboard. It’s the one thing that lets Premier Inns down.

What lets Travelodges down is the plastic shower curtains. A better designed bathroom with a shower screen would be much more hygienic.
 

Tetchytyke

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Other than Kings Cross Royal Scot- and only on one stay there, to be fair- I've never stayed in a truly grim Travelodge. They're not as good as Premier Inn, who are my preferred budget chain.

All my employers have not allowed alcohol expenditure, which I have never really understood. A pint of Diet Coke costs the same as a pint of mild, and the cost cap stops you going mad on the company shilling. I did find that they all would pay on a Wetherspoon meal deal, back when it was same price for booze as a soft drink, so go figure.
 

Iskra

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Exactly. Perhaps that £6k season ticket being so reasonably priced is the reason my Off Peak ticket with a railcard has gone up so much? Maybe they should be paying a little bit more per journey to compensate me for the huge price increases vested on us in recent years? ;)

The argument that First Class isn't a right is total bull too. First Class is a right - to those who've chosen to pay for First Class tickets.

Absolutely, TOC's should be screwing their captive market as much as possible, while attracting business from those that don't have to travel by train selling their spare first class carriages at attractive rates and throwing in a few freebies too, they cost pence after all and would be otherwise empty now we know business travellers can't use them. DarloRich ought to be grateful that my taxes subsidise his commute, while he doesn't pay road tax to subsidise my commute. The least he can do is let me rant about a toast famine or two every now and again on the internet when I fancy a day out.
 
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Master29

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Hmmmm

I wondered why first class was virtually the same price as standard when I booked Penzance to Paignton for tomorrow morning. I was hoping for some breakfast on the train - is this not provided any more?
Not as complimentary and not if it`s a Pullman, but you`ll probably get a muesli bar and sandwich if it`s later in the morning. GWR`s first class offering is nothing special I`m afraid but the sandwiches when available are nice.
 

Master29

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Exactly. Perhaps that £6k season ticket being so reasonably priced is the reason my Off Peak ticket with a railcard has gone up so much? Maybe they should be paying a little bit more per journey to compensate me for the huge price increases vested on us in recent years? ;)

The argument that First Class isn't a right is total bull too. First Class is a right - to those who've chosen to pay for First Class tickets.
However much that may be.
 

Butts

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My commute is relatively short compared to most....

Falkirk Grahamston - Haymarket or Waverley. Thanks to the sets arriving from Dunblane or Glasgow Queen Street via Cumbernauld with First class provision that is not booked, I get a free upgrade on 90% of my journeys.

The great thing is that a lot of people are unaware of this perk and often the 1st Class section is virtually empty.
 

xotGD

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Some Travelodges are fine - some of them a lot better than fine - but it’s working out which is which that’s difficult.
From my room in the Birmingham Travelodge I could watch 68s thrashing out of Moor St on their way to Marylebone. I can't remember how comfy the bed was.
 

DarloRich

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Exactly. Perhaps that £6k season ticket being so reasonably priced is the reason my Off Peak ticket with a railcard has gone up so much? Maybe they should be paying a little bit more per journey to compensate me for the huge price increases vested on us in recent years? ;)

The argument that First Class isn't a right is total bull too. First Class is a right - to those who've chosen to pay for First Class tickets.

One day, soon, your student railcard will expire and you will have grow up and join us in the real world. You might even have some responsibilities of a financial nature to meet then. It might be a shock to you how difficult that can be. Enjoy it while you can.

Also - do you have to pay up front for ALL of your discounted, off peak, railcard subsidised, travel for the year? No, didn't think so..........................
 

bramling

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Absolutely, TOC's should be screwing their captive market as much as possible, while attracting business from those that don't have to travel by train selling their spare first class carriages at attractive rates and throwing in a few freebies too, they cost pence after all and would be otherwise empty now we know business travellers can't use them. DarloRich ought to be grateful that my taxes subsidise his commute, while he doesn't pay road tax to subsidise my commute. The least he can do is let me rant about a toast famine or two every now and again on the internet when I fancy a day out.

Road tax? No such thing. Roads are funded through general taxation, so Darlo’s tax is very much subsidising someone who commutes by car.
 

Bletchleyite

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Road tax? No such thing. Roads are funded through general taxation, so Darlo’s tax is very much subsidising someone who commutes by car.

There is Vehicle Excise Duty (commonly known as road tax, because it is a tax payable for keeping or using a vehicle on the road) and fuel duty. Both of these are general taxes which feed into the pot and contribute significantly if not in excess to these matters. So this is really a fallacy.

That "road tax" is not ring-fenced doesn't alter the fact that it is a significant take that goes into the pot from which road spending is taken.
 

DarloRich

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Absolutely, TOC's should be screwing their captive market as much as possible, while attracting business from those that don't have to travel by train selling their spare first class carriages at attractive rates and throwing in a few freebies too, they cost pence after all and would be otherwise empty now we know business travellers can't use them. DarloRich ought to be grateful that my taxes subsidise his commute, while he doesn't pay road tax to subsidise my commute. The least he can do is let me rant about a toast famine or two every now and again on the internet when I fancy a day out.

erm.......................................

Fairly certain I pay a decent amount of tax to the government. As you know, all of us down south earn a fortune

( PS if you want to be clever at least get the names right. "Car Tax" is actually called Vehicle Excise Duty and is not ring fenced to be used solely on road expenditure. I thought, seeing as how you pay it, you would at least know what it was called)

(PPS just to make your blood boil even more: My last car was duty exempt so you were doubling subsidizing me. Most kind.)
 
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stut

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I do find it odd, in these discussions, how often people focus on the handful of free food and drinks as being the primary perks for 1st class. For me, it's all about the seat and the extra comfort. I find it almost impossible to work effectively from a standard class seat, given my size (my shoulders are wider than the seat, generally speaking, and my legs often don't fit under).

Anyway, surely the issue with 1st class isn't that people will pay for it, it's more about what the purpose of the railways is. If you're putting lower density carriages on a capacity constrained route, then you have to assume that their purpose is putting revenue extraction above effectiveness of transport. Several long-distance operators have cut their first class capacity since people got all pearl-clutchy about civil servants using it (mostly around the time of the MPs' expenses row) but you still often find an empty 1st with an over-full standard (and see the standard Advance fares sell out quickly as a result). Surely this is where the problem lies?
 

Taunton

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( PS if you want to be clever at least get the names right. "Car Tax" is actually called Vehicle Excise Duty and is not ring fenced to be used solely on road expenditure. I thought, seeing as how you pay it, you would at least know what it was called)
I suppose that to be clever you have to get the facts right as well. Not a lot of taxation is ring-fenced, but Vehicle Excise Duty is …

http://cardealermagazine.co.uk/publ...fenced-30bn-road-funding-boost-england/160451
 

Iskra

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erm.......................................

Fairly certain I pay a decent amount of tax to the government. As you know, all of us down south earn a fortune

( PS if you want to be clever at least get the names right. "Car Tax" is actually called Vehicle Excise Duty and is not ring fenced to be used solely on road expenditure. I thought, seeing as how you pay it, you would at least know what it was called)

(PPS just to make your blood boil even more: My last car was duty exempt so you were doubling subsidizing me. Most kind.)

My blood isn’t boiling at all; I’m happy with the life choices I’ve made and happily accept any downside that comes with them. You have to take the rough with the smooth.

I just think you should take responsibility for the decisions you’ve made rather than whine about the downsides.
 

DarloRich

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I just think you should take responsibility for the decisions you’ve made rather than whine about the downsides.

i don't believe I am. I simply point out my views based on my experiences. You and others don't like that you are challenged.
 
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