Loss of rights on Cross-London e-tickets

[Bletchleyite]

Why should passengers end with less flexibility and more complicated fares....

Because LU can't deal with e-tickets and there is no reason someone who is using Thameslink should be inconvenienced by being unable to use an e-ticket if they wish to do so.

TBH, thinking more, it might be even easier to allow it for all flows but to require retailers to state, alongside the e-ticket option, "E-tickets cannot be used for cross-London transfers via London Underground", and that paper tickets via ToD must be offered in such cases.

There are cross-London journeys for which I never use LU, preferring to walk or go by bus (for example Euston-Waterloo I always do by bus), and I don't see why I should be inconvenienced by having to go to a TVM to pick up a paper ticket or by having to split (unless it's cheaper).

 

[alistairlees]

Do you know which RDG accreditation document mentions this? I haven't been able to find it.

Wallsendmag means that fares that are for flows that have a cross-London marker should not be enabled in Retail Control Service (RCS) for eTicket fulfilment type.

 

[b0b]

TfL accept etickets
E-tickets requiring a cross London interchange are withdrawn

The fare has a Maltese cross, if issued on paper. Obviously the ticket medium should not matter, but given the situation, is TfL still getting a cut of the revenue, but refusing to provide the transport to an e-ticket holder? The solution must be to accept an e-ticket, even if you do not have the means to validate it.

 

[Wallsendmag]

There’s only one fix but that needs some expenditure from TfL

Wallsendmag means that fares that are for flows that have a cross-London marker should not be enabled in Retail Control Service (RCS) for eTicket fulfilment type.

Exactly , there was a RCS update last night that removed some flows that shouldn’t have been enabled.

 

[Bletchleyite]

There’s only one fix but that needs some expenditure from TfL

Which isn't going to happen. If the TOCs got together and agreed to pay for e-ticket scanners at the main interchange stations, they might get somewhere (though it would also have to be considered how they mitigate the slowdowns that would cause, as scanning barcodes is much slower than contactless card use or even sticking paper tickets through).

 

[infobleep]

There’s only one fix but that needs some expenditure from TfL


Exactly , there was a RCS update last night that removed some flows that shouldn’t have been enabled.

So I take it this was a mistake?

I was under the impression there were tickets without a Maltese cross rhat were valid on the underground. I'm sure I read that on here. May have been some years ago now and things changed.

 

[Wallsendmag]

I'm not sure if it was a mistake or not

 

[Hadders]

So I take it this was a mistake?

I was under the impression there were tickets without a Maltese cross rhat were valid on the underground. I'm sure I read that on here. May have been some years ago now and things changed.

The elephants in the room is the inter-available route between Kings Cross St Pancras and Moorgate (other inter-available routes are available...)

Not just an issue for e-tickets, I wonder about season tickets held on The Key.

We had a thread on this last week so probably best not re-opening debate here.

 

[infobleep]

I'm not sure if it was a mistake or not

When you made your comment, I thought maybe this flow had been removed but no.

 

[mmh]

When you made your comment, I thought maybe this flow had been removed but no.

I can't get the LNER site to offer me an e-ticket for it though. I've not tried any others. Is it possible to buy this ticket?

 

[js517]

I can't get the LNER site to offer me an e-ticket for it though. I've not tried any others. Is it possible to buy this ticket?

Thameslink will sell it as an e-ticket. Trainsplit will too. Presumably it hasn't been disabled in RCS.

I'd still like to know the source of this "RDG guidelines say Cross London shouldn't be enabled for eTickets". Are these guidelines issued to TOCs who are responsible for enabling fulfilment modes in RCS or guidelines for ticket retailers?
If LNER aren't selling the ticket but other sites are it suggests that they are implementing some generic rule as a ticket retailer that overrides RCS.

 

[mmh]

Why should passengers end with less flexibility and more complicated fares....

Indeed. Surely the "solution" to this "problem" (is it one? how do you buy it?) is not to sell it as an e-ticket or to introduce a full range of Thameslink only fares. A random solitary quirk fare between one destination pair for a meaningless discount isn't sensible. On the same route I'd have thought the wealth of Gatwick fares would have taught that.

Thameslink will sell it as an e-ticket. Trainsplit will too. Presumably it hasn't been disabled in RCS.

Interesting, thanks. Increasingly I think there's a reasonable argument for a single ticketing sales provider so it all works consistently. I realise that would be very controversial, especially on here, and not without potential but not insurmountable downsides.

 

[infobleep]

Are only tickers with a Maltese cross are allowed on underground services? I thought there were examples where this wasn't rhe case?

 

[Hadders]

Are only tickers with a Maltese cross are allowed on underground services? I thought there were examples where this wasn't rhe case?

There are some specific cases, an example I posted upthread but generally speaking a ticket has to have a Maltese Cross to be allowed travel on the underground.

 

[MotCO]

There are some specific cases, an example I posted upthread but generally speaking a ticket has to have a Maltese Cross to be allowed travel on the underground.

I recall a year or so back having a ticket from Orpington to Reading which did not have the Maltese Cross, but I think it worked the barriers; certainly a TfL gateline guy let me through on another occasion.

 

[hkstudent]

I recall a year or so back having a ticket from Orpington to Reading which did not have the Maltese Cross, but I think it worked the barriers; certainly a TfL gateline guy let me through on another occasion.

You are lucky.
If the ticket doesn't work with the barrier, not every TfL staff are equipped with Cross-London fare knowledge to let you through.

 

[infobleep]

There are some specific cases, an example I posted upthread but generally speaking a ticket has to have a Maltese Cross to be allowed travel on the underground.

But isn't this a specific case or does it have to an interavilable route for it to be valid?

 

[Wallsendmag]

Thameslink will sell it as an e-ticket. Trainsplit will too. Presumably it hasn't been disabled in RCS.

I'd still like to know the source of this "RDG guidelines say Cross London shouldn't be enabled for eTickets". Are these guidelines issued to TOCs who are responsible for enabling fulfilment modes in RCS or guidelines for ticket retailers?
If LNER aren't selling the ticket but other sites are it suggests that they are implementing some generic rule as a ticket retailer that overrides RCS.

we certainly don’t have anything that overrides RCS, and yes the instructions came from RDG to those responsible for updating RCS data.

 

[Hadders]

But isn't this a specific case or does it have to an interavilable route for it to be valid?

There have always been odd cases of tickets without the Maltese Cross being valid on the Underground but I think it was more likely that the Maltese Cross was omitted in error.

Manchester to Reading used to be routed 'Any Permitted' (without the Maltese Cross) wasn't intended to be valid via London but it was and therefore technically valid on the Underground (even without the Maltese Cross). Virgin took a dislike to this particular ticket as it was a cheaper way of travelling into Euston during the morning peak and the routeing was amended to '+Via London' and 'Not Via London' a few years back. You'd have struggled to have travelled on the Underground without the Maltese Cross though.

 

[infobleep]

There have always been odd cases of tickets without the Maltese Cross being valid on the Underground but I think it was more likely that the Maltese Cross was omitted in error.

Manchester to Reading used to be routed 'Any Permitted' (without the Maltese Cross) wasn't intended to be valid via London but it was and therefore technically valid on the Underground (even without the Maltese Cross). Virgin took a dislike to this particular ticket as it was a cheaper way of travelling into Euston during the morning peak and the routeing was amended to '+Via London' and 'Not Via London' a few years back. You'd have struggled to have travelled on the Underground without the Maltese Cross though.

So what is rhe difference hear? I appreciate it may be hard to use in practice but what is stooping it legally?

 

[paul1609]

Which isn't going to happen. If the TOCs got together and agreed to pay for e-ticket scanners at the main interchange stations, they might get somewhere (though it would also have to be considered how they mitigate the slowdowns that would cause, as scanning barcodes is much slower than contactless card use or even sticking paper tickets through).

That isn't going to happen the problem is that cross london tickets are insignificant in terms of numbers and revenue when compared to Outboundary Travelcards which from many "South of the Thames" stations is their number 1 ticket by both revenue and sales. If you want to accept e tickets on London underground the priority would be travel cards which of course requires every LU ticket barrier to be enabled.
Personally I have rarely bought cross London tickets in the past few years. Even split ticket sites like train split very rarely offer the cheapest combination of tickets. My first train trip post covid is on Sunday to Hexham and I saved £12 by not booking the suggested train split itinerary even though it suggested splitting in central london.
(I did actually book all the tickets with Trainsplit).
I think the way forward is to abolish cross london tickets ex Thameslink, West london Line etc.

 

[Hadders]

I think the way forward is to abolish cross london tickets ex Thameslink, West london Line etc.

Brace for significant price increases, particularly on shorter distance journeys involving a cross London connection.

 

[plugwash]

To me the obvious soloution would be to introduce machines at interchange points where you could scan your barcode ticket (whether e-ticket or "bog roll"*) and obtain a ticket for the underground. Obviously these machines would need to be connected to a central database to ensure that each rail ticket only received one corresponding underground ticket, but that doesn't seem like rocket surgery (ticket machines with TOD presumablly do this already).

This would remove the need to maintain CCST printers across the whole country.

* Side question, what is the proper name for "bog roll" tickets.

 

[Bletchleyite]

I think the way forward is to abolish cross london tickets ex Thameslink, West london Line etc.

I wouldn't object to making them a bit cheaper and removing the Tube validity. Many don't use it anyway, they walk, use a bus, a Sadiq cycle or a taxi.

I don't see the sense in abolishing them entirely.

 

[Ianno87]

I wouldn't object to making them a bit cheaper and removing the Tube validity. Many don't use it anyway, they walk, use a bus, a Sadiq cycle or a taxi.

And some people have Maltese Cross tickets and still think they have to pay again for the tube!

 

[Bletchleyite]

And some people have Maltese Cross tickets and still think they have to pay again for the tube!

I'm fairly sure I have on at least one occasion, when in possession of such a ticket, tapped my debit card then said something impolite.

 

[JonathanH]

I wouldn't object to making them a bit cheaper and removing the Tube validity. Many don't use it anyway, they walk, use a bus, a Sadiq cycle or a taxi.

I am sure you underestimate the usefulness of the Tube validity based on your own experience just as I overestimate it based on mine. I agree that you could walk from Euston to Charing Cross or Euston to Paddington but realistically most other cross London transfers are not about having a leisurely crossing of London, people want to get to their ultimate destination.

They aren't going to reduce the fares and remove the Tube validity, certainly not by anywhere near £5.

On the other hand, the potential change to PAYG on some of these cross-London journeys, some form of mixed-mode surcharge and single fare pricing is likely to lead to higher prices on this sort of journey in the near future.

 

[mmh]

To me the obvious soloution would be to introduce machines at interchange points where you could scan your barcode ticket (whether e-ticket or "bog roll"*) and obtain a ticket for the underground. Obviously these machines would need to be connected to a central database to ensure that each rail ticket only received one corresponding underground ticket, but that doesn't seem like rocket surgery (ticket machines with TOD presumablly do this already).

We already have those machines, they're the ticket barriers at unrhyw stations. I'm unconvinced the reason for TFL not wanting barcode scanning ticket gates is purely financial. They are far slower. How do you cope when Euston's gateline backs up to the escalators?

 

[Starmill]

It's wrong to assume that everyone with one of these tickets will have a Thameslink service available to them. Some people travelling at certain times may have to travel to London Victoria and use London Underground, or have a longer journey. It looks like it might affect journeys from Hove and other stations too?

Presumably equalising prices would mean tickets valid for the cross-London transfer would need to be reduced in price by £2.40 for a single and £4.80 for a return? I would strongly support that course of action. Of course, it's about as unlikely as it gets. Utter nonsense propogated for the sake of relatively tiny sums of money is the railway way.

 

[Haywain]

Side question, what is the proper name for "bog roll" tickets.

PRT - Paper Roll Tickets