Lothian Buses and ECB Discussion

Jordan Adam

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I was once on a 26 and there was a woman (who i assume goes to church) sat downstairs on the seat over the rear wheel arch (SN09 Gemini) screeching out bible tunes to herself in a very expressive manner. Not something i can say i've witnessed anywhere else! Albeit all big cities have their "familiar faces", i can think of countless examples up here.
 
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RailUK Forums

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I see. I don't agree that we should shunt the problem onto the 2 alone; the main reason for the overcrowding between the city centre and the fort is because the 30 is the only bus that goes there at a decent pace. I don't know either if introducing or rerouting a second bus service to the fort might help. Maybe making the 2 terminate there? 2 covers a lot of residential space and is pretty close as is and with 2 buses that would reach the fort semi-quickly (Far faster that the 49 could dream of, anyway) it might ease the congestion on the 30 a little bit.

Although, since a lot of passengers who go to the Fort get on the bus on Princes Street and the Bridge, and the 2 doesn't actually go any closer than Grassmarket, it might be a little less useful. Maybe look at the 4 and 5 as well since they both terminate at the Jewel too, but I have never used either so I don't know if that would be an issue.
i think the best case would be extend the 4 or the 5 round from the Jewel, this can take some of the City - Fort traffic. the problem still lies with the Fort - Musselburgh section whoch is always full. the only solution to that is a frequency increase weather it be the 30 or another route
 

GregA

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Would longer buses on the 30 help at all? How many more seats does a "standard" Lothian single-deck have, compared to the hybrids used on the 30?
 

etetetetet

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Would longer buses on the 30 help at all? How many more seats does a "standard" Lothian single-deck have, compared to the hybrids used on the 30?
the Hybrids offer a pretty good seat count for the size, at best switching to older buses may net you a couple more seats. Main issue on the 30 though is it just flat up has zero capacity for sitting AND standing passengers.

i think the best case would be extend the 4 or the 5 round from the Jewel, this can take some of the City - Fort traffic. the problem still lies with the Fort - Musselburgh section whoch is always full. the only solution to that is a frequency increase weather it be the 30 or another route
I feel like this is the solution; extending one won't add much to the journey and it would seriously help the 30. Don't think the 5 is terribly busy.
 

tbtc

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What about the loadings on the Wester Hailes side of the 30?

The (parallel) 33 has taken a bit of a frequency reduction since the days it was every ten minutes, so would the 30 frequency justify deckers (or would it require a frequency cut it it had bigger buses)?

If there's not much traffic from one side of the Fort to the other then is there an argument for a ten minute single decker service from the Infirmary to Musselburgh (via the Fort), replacing that part of the 48 and/or 400 (or as an extension of the 48 - i.e. ten minutes from Musselburgh to the Infirmary but then only every other bus continuing into Midlothian)?
 

Jordan Adam

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I wouldn't say the 7900H's offer a "pretty good seat count" some Optare Solos have significantly higher seating capacity! They seat around 1/4th less than a standard single decker.

Imo i still think Artics are the answer for the 30.
 

etetetetet

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I wonder if Lothian wants to invest in Artics, though. Especially for the sake of one route. Nobody I know actually likes articulated buses, everyone I know whos ever used them would prefer a decker. I can't see any other demand for Artics because no other route has as big a problem as the 30 (can't use deckers/too high capacity for singles). I know they used to own one artic that has since left, so maybe it could work, but they'd need to also find space for them. Artics take up a lot more floorspace than any other bus because it's much easier to save space vertically than it is horizontally. Actual drivers and the like would be better to inform me on that.
 

CN04NRJ

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I wonder if Lothian wants to invest in Artics, though. Especially for the sake of one route. Nobody I know actually likes articulated buses, everyone I know whos ever used them would prefer a decker. I can't see any other demand for Artics because no other route has as big a problem as the 30 (can't use deckers/too high capacity for singles). I know they used to own one artic that has since left, so maybe it could work, but they'd need to also find space for them. Artics take up a lot more floorspace than any other bus because it's much easier to save space vertically than it is horizontally. Actual drivers and the like would be better to inform me on that.
I fairly regularly drive bendy buses and although we generally only use them on two routes the only extra infrastructure we have is longer raised kerbs at bus stops. There's several tight turnings with street furniture making it more difficult to turn.

I think the main problem with them is that they're significantly more expensive to operate than 'regular' buses - ours do 5mpg down to around 1-2 fully loaded and cost more to maintain.

However, they have solved the capacity issue on their main route and have significantly grown the customer base to the point it's now sustainable for two operators after competition started up in 2015.

As an aside I guess I've got alot to look forward to as I'll be driving the 30 after I've moved to Edinburgh in a fortnight!
 

Robertj21a

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I wouldn't say the 7900H's offer a "pretty good seat count" some Optare Solos have significantly higher seating capacity! They seat around 1/4th less than a standard single decker.

Imo i still think Artics are the answer for the 30.
Who still produces RHD artics certified for UK use ?
 

Jordan Adam

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I fairly regularly drive bendy buses and although we generally only use them on two routes the only extra infrastructure we have is longer raised kerbs at bus stops. There's several tight turnings with street furniture making it more difficult to turn.

I think the main problem with them is that they're significantly more expensive to operate than 'regular' buses - ours do 5mpg down to around 1-2 fully loaded and cost more to maintain.

However, they have solved the capacity issue on their main route and have significantly grown the customer base to the point it's now sustainable for two operators after competition started up in 2015.

As an aside I guess I've got alot to look forward to as I'll be driving the 30 after I've moved to Edinburgh in a fortnight!
It should be noted however that this is somewhat out weighed by the fact they carry far more people than 'regular buses', so the real cost benefits for an operator are in there being less staff required to provide the same "capacity per hour" on a service. In the same logic a tiny Solo is going to be cheaper to run than a full size B8RLE.

In the case of Aberdeen the Artics are typically allocated to a small group of services, however if required they can and have operated on all bar two routes. In terms of street furniture, maybe it's down to the different vehicle types however generally here that's not been an issue either give or take a few specific locations, in fact in a few cases some of the tighter turns in the city are easier in an artic as they have a tighter turning radius than a single decker.

Who still produces RHD artics certified for UK use ?
Mercedes still offer (and build) the O295G Citaro, if a big enough order was placed to justify starting a production line i'm sure ADL would look in to it. Iirc Irizar and Caetano both have Artic products that are offered to the UK Market (albeit none built or certified as of yet).
 

CN04NRJ

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It should be noted however that this is somewhat out weighed by the fact they carry far more people than 'regular buses', so the real cost benefits for an operator are in there being less staff required to provide the same "capacity per hour" on a service. In the same logic a tiny Solo is going to be cheaper to run than a full size B8RLE.

In the case of Aberdeen the Artics are typically allocated to a small group of services, however if required they can and have operated on all bar two routes. In terms of street furniture, maybe it's down to the different vehicle types however generally here that's not been an issue either give or take a few specific locations, in fact in a few cases some of the tighter turns in the city are easier in an artic as they have a tighter turning radius than a single decker.



Mercedes still offer (and build) the O295G Citaro, if a big enough order was placed to justify starting a production line i'm sure ADL would look in to it. Iirc Irizar and Caetano both have Artic products that are offered to the UK Market (albeit none built or certified as of yet).
I'd definitely agree that alot of turnings are indeed easier in an artic - especially in comparison to our buses with poor steering locks like the Transbus E300s. Ours have been used on other routes in extreme circumstances (strike action and days when there's been severe disruption to services) so I think it's more company policy/internal politics rather than issues with the buses clearing the route.

I think the artic that Lothian operated was YN54ALO which spent alot of time with us in Cardiff as warranty cover - what did Lothian use it on? I presume it wasn't a success as it didn't stay for long.
 

Jordan Adam

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I'd definitely agree that alot of turnings are indeed easier in an artic - especially in comparison to our buses with poor steering locks like the Transbus E300s. Ours have been used on other routes in extreme circumstances (strike action and days when there's been severe disruption to services) so I think it's more company policy/internal politics rather than issues with the buses clearing the route.

I think the artic that Lothian operated was YN54ALO which spent alot of time with us in Cardiff as warranty cover - what did Lothian use it on? I presume it wasn't a success as it didn't stay for long.
Yeah i'd agree, much of the time it's not that a certain type "can't" do a route, it's just that it's not been cleared to operate it, thankfully in the case of Aberdeen we've had Artics constantly for almost 30 years so they've been tested on pretty much everything. Given that Edinburgh now has a large fleet of E400XLB's i can't imagine infrastructure is a huge issue since those are arguably much less manoeuvrable.

Wasn't YN54ALO used on the X48 between the Park and Ride sites at Ingliston and Sheriffhall(?).
 

Robertj21a

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It should be noted however that this is somewhat out weighed by the fact they carry far more people than 'regular buses', so the real cost benefits for an operator are in there being less staff required to provide the same "capacity per hour" on a service. In the same logic a tiny Solo is going to be cheaper to run than a full size B8RLE.

In the case of Aberdeen the Artics are typically allocated to a small group of services, however if required they can and have operated on all bar two routes. In terms of street furniture, maybe it's down to the different vehicle types however generally here that's not been an issue either give or take a few specific locations, in fact in a few cases some of the tighter turns in the city are easier in an artic as they have a tighter turning radius than a single decker.



Mercedes still offer (and build) the O295G Citaro, if a big enough order was placed to justify starting a production line i'm sure ADL would look in to it. Iirc Irizar and Caetano both have Artic products that are offered to the UK Market (albeit none built or certified as of yet).
Thanks. I'm well aware of the manufacturers making artics, just not those who have one certified for the UK market.
 
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another solution i have is (at certain times of the day, such as now, the 48 is full to the brim and could do with doubles. i reckon the 48 could go full doubles releasing 7 singles and allowing them to transfer to LS for the 30 in order to increase the frequency.

another is low height MMCs for the X7 allowing some singles to do the same from ECB to LS
 

Jordan Adam

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another solution i have is (at certain times of the day, such as now, the 48 is full to the brim and could do with doubles. i reckon the 48 could go full doubles releasing 7 singles and allowing them to transfer to LS for the 30 in order to increase the frequency.

another is low height MMCs for the X7 allowing some singles to do the same from ECB to LS
Low height E400MMCs are too high for the X7.
 

scosutsut

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Low height E400MMCs are too high for the X7.
The full length route at peak needs deckers so the most logical solution in my mind is to run Haddington shorts - but as that requires more drivers and vehicles it doesn't feel imminently likely nor would it help the 30 out.
 

OmniCity999

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The full length route at peak needs deckers so the most logical solution in my mind is to run Haddington shorts - but as that requires more drivers and vehicles it doesn't feel imminently likely nor would it help the 30 out.
Low height E400MMCs are too high for the X7.
If they relayed the road properly the last time they resurfaced it then it would be low enough for low height Enviros.

When relayed, they laid the tarmac ontop of the old surface as opposed to drilling it up and laying a new surface. First used to run deckers on the route until this point. Of course they could run some peak services around East Linton allowing them to run deckers.

X7 decker shorts to Haddington currently run in the weekday peak.
 
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OmniCity999

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If they relayed the road properly the last time they resurfaced it then it would be low enough for low height Enviros.

When relayed, they laid the tarmac ontop of the old surface as opposed to drilling it up and laying a new surface. First used to run deckers on the route until this point. Of course they could run some peak services around East Linton allowing them to run deckers.
I thought all modern Enviro400's were considered 'low height' ?
 

Jordan Adam

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I thought all modern Enviro400's were considered 'low height' ?
There's two different heights. Easiest way to differentiate them is by looking at the front destination, on low heights there's next to no gap between the destination display and lower deck windscreen, on full heights (as per the E400XLBs) there's a noticeable gap. Of course there's a number of other ways to differentiate them (advert frame spacing etc) but at least to me the front display is by far the most noticeable/easiest.

Low height: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanadam44/46166516982/
Full height: https://www.flickr.com/photos/jordanadam44/48837494797/
 

scosutsut

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X7 decker shorts to Haddington currently run in the weekday peak.
Thanks, I'd missed that some how.

I'll have a butchers at the timetable, that's what I've been eagerly waiting for so I can ditch ScotRail for my commute!

Edit - can't find them on ECB timetable nor LB journey planner - do you know the times or a source I can check with?
 
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sam120

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Thanks, I'd missed that some how.

I'll have a butchers at the timetable, that's what I've been eagerly waiting for so I can ditch ScotRail for my commute!

Edit - can't find them on ECB timetable nor LB journey planner - do you know the times or a source I can check with?
I thought they scrapped them at the recent changes?
 

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