Lothian Buses and ECB Discussion

[overthewater]

That was when Tim O'Toole was still in charge. Most people are hoping that more determined action is now underway under the new regime.

Its been longer than that, the problem even predates Mr o'toole. The talk is East coast buses are not making a profit either in East lothian..

 

[Robertj21a]

Its been longer than that, the problem even predates Mr o'toole. The talk is East coast buses are not making a profit either in East lothian..

As I said before, just register over some more First routes. Before long the drivers will see the light and move over too.

 

[overthewater]

As I said before, just register over some more First routes. Before long the drivers will see the light and move over too.

As I've said many times people are not happy with Lothian because there cost more than First, LCB cost more for Day and Monthly tickets for all zones and the public are rightly complaining.

 

[Mwanesh]

This reminds me of Plymouth where Citybus were smiling when they had First in the ropes.Then they sold out to Stagecoach .Someone may be looking at East Scotland for pickings.Lothian may get burned on this one .

 

[Robertj21a]

This reminds me of Plymouth where Citybus were smiling when they had First in the ropes.Then they sold out to Stagecoach .Someone may be looking at East Scotland for pickings.Lothian may get burned on this one .

Quality usually wins.

 

[tbtc]

If they play their cards right it should be easy - if they keep playing them how they are now I'm doubtful of how well this will turn out.

How would you handle it differently though?

Omg there done this already on the main routes i.e. 27/28 and 275. And good number people have not switched because Lothian cost to much. Its been stated first have kept most of these peak passengers..

A lot of "peak" passengers will be on weekly/ monthly (etc) tickets, so the last ones to jump ship - if you've paid a large sum for unlimited travel on First services for the next few weeks then you're going to keep your hand in your pocket when a Lothian service passes your stop, at least in the short term.

Easy to win over the "twirlies" and the passengers buying single fares, much harder to win over the regular commuters who are locked into longer tickets.

As I've said many times people are not happy with Lothian because there cost more than First, LCB cost more for Day and Monthly tickets for all zones and the public are rightly complaining.

Some people on Twitter might be complaining, sure, it's what Twitter is for.

But, realistically... Lothian are bad because they aren't undercutting First? A loss making First operation? Surely the fact that First aren't charging sufficient money to break even in West Lothian suggests that there's not a lot of room to undercut them - especially if Lothian are in this for the long term (and want to build a sustainable business, with the kind of fleet quality that they have become synonymous with in Edinburgh).

Either this West Lothian venture dries up after six/twelve months or First decide to pull out in six/twelve months - Lothian have to avoid the awkward situation of being seen to cross-subsidise a "bargain basement" operation in West Lothian then hike up prices once First pull out.

If people aren't happy with Lothian then they won't use the service - that's a risk they'll have to take - but at least they are taking a pragmatic approach to fares (rather than starting off as MagicBus and then doubling the fares once the other operator pull out). No cowboy operation.

 

[overthewater]

A few points:

* Peak passenger cant jump because as i've said in the other thread, LCB has no weekly tickets why it day tickets cost more and its monthly offering is very poor value, costing more and allowing less days...
* Its not twitter Im on about, its Facebook. every day people say can't travel with you monthly ticket suck or to that affect.
* First West Lothian operations are NOT " A loss making First operation"
* Public of West Lothian have complained for years First fares are too high... Oh the Irony
* AGAIN no one has suggested "bargain basement" fares, Lothian do not have proper weekly nor Monthly tickets in place. Its like there going treat the place like Cash cow... Are you serious saying people of West Lothian need to pay more than £90 a month to get unlimited bus travel around West Lothian and into Edinburgh and infant should be paying £125 for only 20 days out 28 a month? ie for the same service for less days and more money?
* People will use lothian because there operate routes which First no longer provide direct links for but Lothian pragmatic is bonkers.

 

[goldisgood]

How would you handle it differently though?

1. Fill in the gaps that have been left by First which aren't provided by the train (Harthill, Whitburn and Broxburn to Edinburgh) - gives the 'newcomer' a good reputation, and serves a less competitive market.
2. Run a smarter, more competitive service on the X27/X28. These services seem particularly half-hearted.
3. Be slightly less ambitious (does the 275 really need double deckers yet, likewise the 2 new services being introduced later next month? do Edinburgh city routes need double deckers yet? go figure. regular comments say that the 49 needs double deckers - a new route running like a different one that ran hourly with a single decker bus won't magically need quadruple capacity overnight)
4. Stop obsessing about 'historic numbers' - shorter, simpler numbers are on the whole simpler to understand. Using the irregular numbers that they are reviving makes not much sense. It's not like tons of people are used to that number, why not make a simpler network when you start rather than cause confusion later as you realise it's a bit complicated? At least drop the 2(xx)!
5. Try and undercut First in fares - Lothian are operating a higher quality service, I can't deny that, but they are more expensive. At least start cheaper - that will make people more willing to try them. Whilst USB charging and wifi is great and all, price is a bigger factor, as the above says, passengers have been complaining for years.

Something like this perhaps? (>>> implies limited stop)
X22 - Harthill to Edinburgh: Harthill - Whitburn - Blackburn - Livingston Village - Livingston - Uphall - Broxburn - Costorphine >>> Edinburgh
X27 - Bathgate to Edinburgh: Bathgate - Deans - Eliburn - Hospital - Howden Livingston - Mid Calder - East Calder - Sighthill >>> Edinburgh
28 - Deans to Edinburgh: Deans - Knightsridge - Ladywell - Hospital - Howden - Craigshill - Livingston - Dedridge - Mid Calder - East Calder - Kirknewton - Sighthill - Edinburgh
75 - Bathgate to Edinburgh Park: Bathgate - Blackburn - Kirkton Campus - Livingston - Howden - Hospital - Ladywell - Pumpherston - Uphall - Broxburn - Gyle Centre - Edinburgh Park
80 - Blackridge/Armadale to Livingston: Blackridge - Armadale - Bathgate - Deans - Eliburn - Hospital - Howden - Livingston

X22, X27, 28 and 75 all every 30 minutes
80 every 15 minutes
X22, X27 and 28 run with double deckers
75 and 80 run with single deckers

Using about the same number of buses, with a few extras for the X22 (I assume and hope that the new 280 is every 15 minutes, and the 287 is every 30 minutes), but providing a much larger range of services and restoring links that have been lost.

 

[overthewater]

280 and 287 will be most likely every 30mins Why didn't there do 287/288 which was the old circular coving all of these two routes.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Its been longer than that, the problem even predates Mr o'toole. The talk is East coast buses are not making a profit either in East lothian..

When they’ve invested in B8RLE’s and just recently B5TL’s for the 124 route I cant see how they can be running at poor levels of revenue!

 

[MrHopefull]

When they’ve invested in B8RLE’s and just recently B5TL’s for the 124 route I cant see how they can be running at poor levels of revenue!

we aren't
they are investing heavily in ECB and our profits aren't at losses

 

[sam120]

I’m looking at ECB on lvf.io and I noticed that 10101 has been off service since 20/08. Anybody clued up as to why or are they just starting to phase these out?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I’m looking at ECB on lvf.io and I noticed that 10101 has been off service since 20/08. Anybody clued up as to why or are they just starting to phase these out?

Simple, The 8 New B5's has allowed them to be made redundant. I think they are staying though, incase they are needed again eg WL or more ECB routes

I assume and hope that the new 280 is every 15 minutes, and the 287 is every 30 minutes

280 and 287 will be most likely every 30mins Why didn't there do 287/288 which was the old circular coving all of these two routes.

I think 1037-1050 will make up the buses for these routes so I guess it's something somebody could definately work out, 1037 was delivered the other day and I've seen photos of nearly completed 1039

 

[Journeyman]

First Scotland East has been making losses for donkey years....

Certainly in Moir Lockhead's day, there was a lot of sentimentality about FSE, as it was the first company that was acquired after First's predecessor was established in Aberdeen. Despite it being a dead duck financially, they seemed very reluctant to get rid of it.

 

[Journeyman]

Either this West Lothian venture dries up after six/twelve months or First decide to pull out in six/twelve months - Lothian have to avoid the awkward situation of being seen to cross-subsidise a "bargain basement" operation in West Lothian then hike up prices once First pull out.

If people aren't happy with Lothian then they won't use the service - that's a risk they'll have to take - but at least they are taking a pragmatic approach to fares (rather than starting off as MagicBus and then doubling the fares once the other operator pull out). No cowboy operation.

Lothian also have a large, established network and their fares structure has to fit in with that - hence a clear and fairly simple zonal structure, that works well if you need to take onward buses in Edinburgh. It has the advantage of a network benefit, something First is rapidly losing now they've axed all services south and east of the city.

First can be a bit more flexible on fares, I guess, but I can see why Lothian has adopted the structure they have.

 

[overthewater]

we aren't
they are investing heavily in ECB and our profits aren't at losses

I never said losses, I said profits, you can still break even etc..

Certainly in Moir Lockhead's day, there was a lot of sentimentality about FSE, as it was the first company that was acquired after First's predecessor was established in Aberdeen. Despite it being a dead duck financially, they seemed very reluctant to get rid of it.

Its Bonkers, in 1997 First should have been forced to sell off Airdrie and Falkirk depots to create some better competition.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Lothian also have a large, established network and their fares structure has to fit in with that - hence a clear and fairly simple zonal structure, that works well if you need to take onward buses in Edinburgh. It has the advantage of a network benefit, something First is rapidly losing now they've axed all services south and east of the city.

First can be a bit more flexible on fares, I guess, but I can see why Lothian has adopted the structure they have.

If only other folk can see it that way, i noticed posts from some folk on social media who are commenting on how good value the network dayticket is, particularly travelling from Whitburn to North Berwick so it’s good to see some good is coming from this network benefit, I still wish they would introduce a ridacard but I’m not holding my breath anytime soon

My theory is that if Lothian weren’t dedicated enough to find a garage closer to West Lothian they wouldn’t be serious about staying more than a year, plus with two services in West Lothian coming later this month, plus two new more routes apparently planned later this year, time can only tell what future has in store for Lothian Country.

Out if fun I’m taking a wild guess that the two future routes might be
(X20) Edinburgh - Whitburn
Via Haymarket, Maybury, Newbridge, Broxburn, Bathgate, Armadale
238 (X38) Edinburgh - Linlithgow
Via Haymarket, Maybury, Newbridge, Kirkliston, Winchburgh

* (X20) to give a faster link for Bathgate to Edinburgh without going through all of Livingston.
* (238) to prioritise giving Kirkliston residents a proper link to Edinburgh under Lothian fare system.

on top of that perhaps also extend the 275 to Fauldhouse and increase the frequency of the X27//X28

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Out if fun I’m taking a wild guess that the two future routes might be
(X20) Edinburgh - Whitburn
Via Haymarket, Maybury, Newbridge, Broxburn, Bathgate, Armadale
238 (X38) Edinburgh - Linlithgow
Via Haymarket, Maybury, Newbridge, Kirkliston, Winchburgh

* (X20) to give a faster link for Bathgate to Edinburgh without going through all of Livingston.
* (238) to prioritise giving Kirkliston residents a proper link to Edinburgh under Lothian fare system.

on top of that perhaps also extend the 275 to Fauldhouse and increase the frequency of the X27//X28

Having an X20 would be a big suprise to me. Unless it was incredibly cheaper than the much faster train then I think it would fail.

The problem with Winchburgh, Kirkliston and Newbridge is they all want standard fares which they are highly unlikely to get. Route would work just loads of angry locals about fares.

As I've said previously there is a much bigger chance of the 275 going to Harthill than to Fauldhouse. Reason for this is that it could replace the 22. There is a bigger chance that the 287 may go to Fauldhouse by going through ASDA then Whitburn.

I think X27/X28 will increase if and when 23/X23 goes

 

[takno]

IIRC, the argument for deregulation was that Airlines in USA were deregulated and because it brought cheaper fares via competition, it would work on buses in Britain! The government of the day decided to have a trial period in Herefordshire and Worcestershire, two comparatively thinly populated English counties. This was, somehow, deemed a success so it was decided it would work in the rest of Britain and the travelling public were promised better services and cheaper fares.
What the government should have realised was that the real competition against the bus is from the car. Now 32 years later, we have a spiral of dwindling passenger numbers, increasing fares, worse congestion and a government unwilling to do anything to help the bus industry. Where do we go from here? Answers on a postcard to Downing Street and await a reply, but don't hold your breath !

The trial was just in Hereford and Malvern, which were both middlingly populated middling market towns in middle England. Peter Walker may well have been influential in the choice - he was a craven idiot of a minister and was always keen to try out all his terrible ideas in his own back yard, which is how the bizarre franken-county of Hereford and Worcester came to exist in the first place.

Dad tells me that all the local coach companies fired straight into Malvern and destroyed the network totally within a matter of months. I went to Hereford during the trial, and there were about 5 companies doing an interesting job of clogging up the city centre completely. The nicest you could say about the results was pretty much that in one of the locations it wasn't immediately catastrophic. The careful choice of small towns rather than big cities meant that they could just claim that it was poor choice of trial location that caused the problem though. The poll tax demonstrates that they were never at all afraid of chasing up a disastrous trial with a national roll-out in any case.

 

[Mal]

The trial was just in Hereford and Malvern, which were both middlingly populated middling market towns in middle England. Peter Walker may well have been influential in the choice - he was a craven idiot of a minister and was always keen to try out all his terrible ideas in his own back yard, which is how the bizarre franken-county of Hereford and Worcester came to exist in the first place.

Thanks for clearing that up for me! I never saw the chaos that your Dad saw in Hereford but, as I said, it just proved to be an utter disaster.

 

[CM]

Its Bonkers, in 1997 First should have been forced to sell off Airdrie and Falkirk depots to create some better competition.

Selling Airdrie would have been pointless in 1997 because First SHUT the depot in 1997 and either withdrew all the routes or moved them to other depots!

 

[Steamysandy]

The trial was just in Hereford and Malvern, which were both middlingly populated middling market towns in middle England. Peter Walker may well have been influential in the choice - he was a craven idiot of a minister and was always keen to try out all his terrible ideas in his own back yard, which is how the bizarre franken-county of Hereford and Worcester came to exist in the first place.

Dad tells me that all the local coach companies fired straight into Malvern and destroyed the network totally within a matter of months. I went to Hereford during the trial, and there were about 5 companies doing an interesting job of clogging up the city centre completely. The nicest you could say about the results was pretty much that in one of the locations it wasn't immediately catastrophic. The careful choice of small towns rather than big cities meant that they could just claim that it was poor choice of trial location that caused the problem though. The poll tax demonstrates that they were never at all afraid of chasing up a disastrous trial with a national roll-out in any case.

Is that not still the case? Universal Credit and the Railway For example

 

[overthewater]

Selling Airdrie would have been pointless in 1997 because First SHUT the depot in 1997 and either withdrew all the routes or moved them to other depots!

Thats the points....

 

[CM]

Thats the points....

What?! You say they should have been forced to sell Airdrie but give no reason? You clearly weren't aware that Airdrie was shut in 1997 anyway.

 

[overthewater]

What?! You say they should have been forced to sell Airdrie but give no reason? You clearly weren't aware that Airdrie was shut in 1997 anyway.

Of course I know. Going by your logic you dont know why there shut it in the first place... The whole debacle come about because of the First brought Strathclyde buses thus given First a major monopoly across the whole of the central belt. It was what started the bus wars, in Fife, Ayrshire and Glasgow and also place milage floor on First Scotland East, that has cause all this trouble in the first place. The plan was to make first sell off certain depots but somehow managed to convince the body at time not to do that.

 

[CM]

Of course I know. Going by your logic you dont know why there shut it in the first place... The whole debacle come about because of the First brought Strathclyde buses thus given First a major monopoly across the whole of the central belt. It was what started the bus wars, in Fife, Ayrshire and Glasgow and also place milage floor on First Scotland East, that has cause all this trouble in the first place. The plan was to make first sell off certain depots but somehow managed to convince the body at time not to do that.

What trouble? What plan? You make all these statements about trouble and plans but don't give any further information! And more to the point, what does Airdrie depot have to do with Lothian and East Coast buses which is what this topic is about!

 

[overthewater]

How old are you? It well document what happened in 1997... Its not my fault this talk has ended up here...

 

[CM]

How old are you? It well document what happened in 1997... Its not my fault this talk has ended up here...

Well you are the one who brought up Airdrie depot.........

I don't see what my age has to do with anything.

 

[overthewater]

Because if your alot younger you might not know about what happened in 1997..

We ended up at this point of call on this thread after these posts were made about West lothian which has nothing to do with, but hey this one never got called out.. plus what Plymouth got to do with Lothian... No one calls that out.

This reminds me of Plymouth where Citybus were smiling when they had First in the ropes.Then they sold out to Stagecoach .Someone may be looking at East Scotland for pickings.Lothian may get burned on this one .

I responded to this post

Certainly in Moir Lockhead's day, there was a lot of sentimentality about FSE, as it was the first company that was acquired after First's predecessor was established in Aberdeen. Despite it being a dead duck financially, they seemed very reluctant to get rid of it.

I highlighted the fact which is common knowledge. and its been repeated so many times...

The MMC investigated the 1996 merger and concluded in 1997 that the merger would reduce competition as a result of two theories of harm: (a) The merger caused a loss of potential competition between FirstBus and SBH (we refer to this as MMC concern 1). (b) There would be a loss of potential competition between the merged entity and other operators (MMC concern 2). The dominance of FirstBus in central and south-east Scotland as a result of the merger would deter entry (MMC concern 3).

The plan was first had to sell some depots, to keep the MMC happy, but the bus wars somehow stopped it happening. First shut Airdrie depot and moved all the work to Motherwell.

My point was releasting to what Journeyman said, and If First were forced to sell off Airdrie and Falkirk ( or there about as this was the area being looked at) it would have created the competition MMC wanted, since it would have split the operates in half to either side. Because it never happened the mileage floor was put in, and which resulted in FSE being the basket case it was for 15 years. Lothian has been waiting it's time to strike to grab West lothian, only because First is so dire in the Central belt of scotland. The point was if MMC had its way thing might have been differently but it reinforcing what Jounreyman said,

On top of that you never asked, you just made a comments.

 

[overthewater]

RIGHT? can we please move on? HERE are the 2001 service changes as promised...

MARCH LEFT and August RIGHT

MAY

OCTOBER