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Lothian Buses and ECB Discussion

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smsm1

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Prior to Mid 2016 over 2 years ago, the 18 was only running peak times by Lothian, While First ran the service during the day/at weekends and from what I recall back then it was a pretty quiet service, I used it a few times years ago at peak hours, and then when First withdrew from East Lothian that summer the 18 contract was giving to Lothian to be a full time service, and since then it not only increased in frequency outside peak times but it was extended twice (Fort Kinnaird and Airport), Introduced later evening journeys, And Rebranded as Skylink 400, now most 400 services I see are packed with folk, it’s amazing to see how far an old service has come in only two years!

Go back a bit over a decade and the 18 used to be the 52/32 circle around the outskirts of the city. I remember going to school on it. When it was split they took out things like ASDA The Jewel and Fort Kinnaird, which took away a lot of the demand. They also reduced the frequency meaning that if you missed a bus then you'd be faster going via the city centre, and the evening service was curtailed meaning the people had to leave work early to get home at a reasonable time. The link between the hospital and Greendykes was probably a significant factor in allowing the route to be extended and create the required demand on the route.
 

smsm1

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It used to be every 20mins back in the day?
Yup every 20 minutes with some kids going to Firrhill being unable to get on in the morning, and they cut the frequency to every 30 mins and wondered why usage dropped. Based on the extra time going via the city centre, the 20 minute frequency is tipping point to being faster to wait for the next 18/400 for several journeys along the route.
 

FlybeDash8Q400

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Seems 400 is doing really well, something that I was surprised about until I explored it in more detail. Are later journeys and an increased frequency too much at this stage? 300's new section is still hopeless, problem now is the 35 is popular out of Riccarton meaning it's difficult to reverse the change
 

Gingerbus1991

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Seems 400 is doing really well, something that I was surprised about until I explored it in more detail. Are later journeys and an increased frequency too much at this stage? 300's new section is still hopeless, problem now is the 35 is popular out of Riccarton meaning it's difficult to reverse the change
I seen no problems how the 35/300 route used to be
 

tbtc

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The 32/52 used to be a pretty unbalanced route in the old days, given the busy centres that it served on the northern side (Portobello, Leith, Muirhouse) compared to the southern side (where there weren't many busy sections between Western Hailes and Cameron Toll).

Worth pointing out that, when Eastern Scottish competed on the Outer Circle, it was the Cameron Toll - Portobello - Leith - Muirhouse that they ran (38/58), ignoring the southern side.

Obviously the opening of the Hospital changed act balance a little (creating additional demand on the southern section, including the potential for people from Loanhead etc to change to the Outer Circle at Burdiehouse).

But circulars were becoming too awkward, unreliable (and easy for Eastern Scottish to cherry-pick against). Plus, the ERI, the Gyle, Kinnaird Park etc meant changing travel patterns - to divert the 32/52 (or the 2/12) into the Gyle whilst retaining the "circular" feature would make them even more cumbersome.

The thing that strikes me as odd with the southern half of the old route (the 18/400) is that the 4 and 11 run so frequently parallel to it - you could make the 400 every ten minutes from the Hospital to Fairmilehead (or even Oxgangs) and cut the 11 and maybe even the 4 back a bit.
 

sam120

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I agree, either it's you and about five other passengers or it's standing room only.
i do like the 38 though. it’s very useful if you live on the outskirts of edinburgh *bonnyrigg for me* and you need a bus to gorgie or murrayfield without the hassle of the city centre. the 400 and 21 are also good for this type of journey, coming from someone who hates being stuck in traffic for what seems like days on end...
 

VioletEclipse

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i do like the 38 though. it’s very useful if you live on the outskirts of edinburgh *bonnyrigg for me* and you need a bus to gorgie or murrayfield without the hassle of the city centre. the 400 and 21 are also good for this type of journey, coming from someone who hates being stuck in traffic for what seems like days on end...
That's also the benefit of the 38 for me, I only use it when I'm trying to avoid the city centre. At this time of year it's not too bad but between mid December and new Year, then again during the Festival it's definitely worth avoiding the city centre at all costs. At weekends you are guaranteed a choice of seat on the 38, but not always on weekdays. On the previous subject, services 21, 38 and 400 do make a circle route around Edinburgh (not a perfect circle by any means though).
 

route101

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The 38 is a route i need to try , remember it being deckers when i was younger .

Used ECB today . Smart decker on 124 to North Berwick . Eves solo to Dunbar , then x7 single to Edinburgh.
 

VioletEclipse

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The 38 is a route i need to try , remember it being deckers when i was younger .

Used ECB today . Smart decker on 124 to North Berwick . Eves solo to Dunbar , then x7 single to Edinburgh.
Due to the low bridge on the route, finding a decker on the 38 is about as common as a Gemini Three on the 61.

Having said that, until last year they used to have an early morning double decker working that went Longstone-RIE before changing to an 18.
 

route101

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Due to the low bridge on the route, finding a decker on the 38 is about as common as a Gemini Three on the 61.

Having said that, until last year they used to have an early morning double decker working that went Longstone-RIE before changing to an 18.
Must of changed its route , i recall Olympians on it .
 

Darklord8899

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The 38 is a route i need to try , remember it being deckers when i was younger .

The 38 has always been singles due to the low bridge at Balgreen. IIRC there was the school bus from Broughton High (around the time I was in first or second year, so 1985/86) which ran to Saughtonhall... there may have been an extra schooldays only 38 journey from Crewe Toll to Saughtonhall which was operated with a Decker
 

Bungle965

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Article has appeared in the Scotsman about the new Enviro's.
The unveiling ceremony had the razzmatazz reminiscent of the launch of a new train favoured by the likes of Sir Richard Branson of Virgin, writes Alastair Dalton.

There had been little clue in the invitation of what was in store – simply that a new bus had been built for Lothian which would give “significant benefits” to passengers.

The new Lothian 100-seater at the Kelpies, near the Falkirk factory where they are being built. Picture Michael Gillen
The new Lothian 100-seater at the Kelpies, near the Falkirk factory where they are being built. Picture Michael Gillen
Heralded by a bagpiper, what emerged from behind a curtain at the Alexander Dennis factory in Falkirk turned out to be not only Lothian’s biggest ever but the largest in the UK.


Confounding past gloom in the industry caused by the vicious circle of falling passenger numbers and growing urban congestion, this 42-strong fleet of 100-seater double deckers seemed like a massive vote of confidence in the future of the bus.

It could be a win for Scottish manufacturing too, since the Falkirk firm hasn’t made buses in volume for Lothian for decades.


Since the announcement last week, the operator has been surprisingly reticent about the new vehicles, which are due to debut in late January.

However, it seems a key motivator has been the ability to better cope with rush-hour demand without having to put more vehicles on the road which would just add to the traffic.

On the face of it, you might think such monsters would mean even more empty seats at quieter times, but what Lothian appears to be banking on is introducing a further improvement in passenger comfort to entice more people out of their cars.

Features already on its other buses like wifi and charging sockets will be accompanied by “mood lighting” to create a better ambience and high-back seats to give passengers more personal space.

However, the new buses are not electric, in a reflection that the industry has some way to go towards zero-emission vehicles.

Lothian is about to be joined by west coast counterparts First Glasgow in trialling electric buses, but I’m told they are still too expensive and can’t travel far enough between charges to yet be uniformly viable.


Scotland’s first emission zone comes into force in Glasgow city centre in less than seven weeks’ time on New Year’s Day, with Edinburgh, Aberdeen and Dundee to follow within four years. Buses will be the initial target of the pollution crackdown, with an increasing proportion having to have the cleanest diesel engines to use the zone.

For First Glasgow, clean diesel, rather than electric, is the “only show in town” when electrics can only manage 100 miles before having being charged for four hours, when a typical route involves 160 miles a day.


It said electric buses were three times the price of diesel ones, at about £450,000 each, and you would never recoup the difference in lower running costs.

But the worry must be that while the technology is evolving, there could be repeats of the situation in Glasgow, where its only electric service was threatened with closure because the cost of supporting it become prohibitive for the city council after the four-year-old vehicles’ warranty ran out.


Electric buses are smoother and will cut pollution where it matters, such as around passengers waiting at bus stops.

But there are likely to be a number of jolts to come on the road to buses becoming greener as well as more attractive to passengers.
https://www.scotsman.com/news/opini...sport-1-4830591/amp?__twitter_impression=true
Sam
 

Gingerbus1991

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Article has appeared in the Scotsman about the new Enviro's.

https://www.scotsman.com/news/opini...sport-1-4830591/amp?__twitter_impression=true
Sam
An interesting read, but everything still comes down to cost, particularly when they cost upwards of £350k, but then why is there not “more” political pressure to do so and for funding to achieve this state of more electric vehicles on the road, many companys dont Really or Honestly care about the enviroment wether that be local or nationwide if Im being completely brutal.

Look at the number of electric and hybrid buses that sweden and germany have in service!
 

Jordan Adam

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An interesting read, but everything still comes down to cost, particularly when they cost upwards of £350k, but then why is there not “more” political pressure to do so and for funding to achieve this state of more electric vehicles on the road, many companys dont Really or Honestly care about the enviroment wether that be local or nationwide if Im being completely brutal.

Look at the number of electric and hybrid buses that sweden and germany have in service!

The issue with the UK is that there's no electric or Hybrid buses on the market which have proven to be able to match what a diesel bus can do.

Edit: Having read the article it seems to say quite a bit without really saying anything.
 

Gingerbus1991

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The issue with the UK is that there's no electric or Hybrid buses on the market which have proven to be able to match what a diesel bus can do.

Edit: Having read the article it seems to say quite a bit without really saying anything.
Nothings ever perfect, Id reckon after driving them for a few months at least Ive found Volvo’s B5LHs to be a fair comparison to the diesel-only counterparts.

If the issue is cost of batteries I believe ADL is trying to put these issue aside with the introduction of using Ultra-Capacitors instead of batteries, the Caps should vastly outlast batteries for the whole service life of the bus.
Electric-Only driven buses or Series-Hybrids/Diesel-Generator hybrids like the 400H seem to be very opposed to hills though.

If Range is the drawback Volvo/ABB Group have already introduced end of route charging(Opportunity Charging), particularly useful for city centre operations and should massively reduce the the range anxiety amongst operators.

Of course Hydrogen or Gas buses are also in the system these days as well, albeit Hydrogen buses dont seem to be reliable most recently, perhaps Wrights Hydrogen Geminis, london and apparently aberdeen will get will be far superior than vanhools attempts.

Reading Buses and Nottingham City Transport seem to be doing ok with there Gas powered Enviro’s.
 

Bungle965

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The issue with the UK is that there's no electric or Hybrid buses on the market which have proven to be able to match what a diesel bus can do.

Edit: Having read the article it seems to say quite a bit without really saying anything.
Looks at the issues that the likes of Transdev have had as well trying to get their electric buses up and running.
From what I have heard also, Volvo has discontinued the full electric versions of the 7900s meaning one less model choice.
Sam
 

Jordan Adam

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Nothings ever perfect, Id reckon after driving them for a few months at least Ive found Volvo’s B5LHs to be a fair comparison to the diesel-only counterparts.

If the issue is cost of batteries I believe ADL is trying to put these issue aside with the introduction of using Ultra-Capacitors instead of batteries, the Caps should vastly outlast batteries for the whole service life of the bus.
Electric-Only driven buses or Series-Hybrids/Diesel-Generator hybrids like the 400H seem to be very opposed to hills though.

If Range is the drawback Volvo/ABB Group have already introduced end of route charging(Opportunity Charging), particularly useful for city centre operations and should massively reduce the the range anxiety amongst operators.

Of course Hydrogen or Gas buses are also in the system these days as well, albeit Hydrogen buses dont seem to be reliable most recently, perhaps Wrights Hydrogen Geminis, london and apparently aberdeen will get will be far superior than vanhools attempts.

Reading Buses and Nottingham City Transport seem to be doing ok with there Gas powered Enviro’s.

The B5LHs are fairly decent, but they're not as reliable as a diesel counterpart and the use of I-Shift makes them pretty useless on start stop work.

Personally in my view Hydrogens are the way forward. But they're not quite there yet. The Vanhools are fantastic in every way other than reliability. Also regarding the Hydrogen Streetdecks (not Geminis) Aberdeen's batch of 10 are confirmed, they will replace 6 single deckers, thus seeing the Aberdeen fleet increase once again by a further 4 buses.

ADLs on Hybrid range is pretty awful. the Enviro350H's for example are known here as the "Big Green Vibrators". The reason being that the engine is loud and causes the whole vehicle to vibrate and rattle like a tractor. They're very unreliable now and they're not all that economical!
 

VioletEclipse

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Bungle965095 said:
Looks at the issues that the likes of Transdev have had as well trying to get their electric buses up and running.
From what I have heard also, Volvo has discontinued the full electric versions of the 7900s meaning one less model choice.
Sam
Any idea why Volvo discontinued it?
 

Gingerbus1991

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Looks at the issues that the likes of Transdev have had as well trying to get their electric buses up and running.
From what I have heard also, Volvo has discontinued the full electric versions of the 7900s meaning one less model choice.
Sam
Its a technology thats coming in the future and one that eventually everyone will have to embrace if they want to get around by car as well.

BYD in china build for ADL, Proterra be an american company building electric buses, Magtec build for Optare.

I honestly dont see Volvo pulling the plug when it has been a successful story oversees.
 

Jordan Adam

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Looks at the issues that the likes of Transdev have had as well trying to get their electric buses up and running.
From what I have heard also, Volvo has discontinued the full electric versions of the 7900s meaning one less model choice.
Sam

Indeed, i've heard people mention Trolleybuses too. But in reality they're totally pointless in the UK, the whole idea behind Trolleybuses was to use existing infrastructure left over by the trams. Few Cities in the UK have that now. And the costs of putting up chicken wire all round a city would be astronomical.
 

Bungle965

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Indeed, i've heard people mention Trolleybuses too. But in reality they're totally pointless in the UK, the whole idea behind Trolleybuses was to use existing infrastructure left over by the trams. Few Cities in the UK have that now. And the costs of putting up chicken wire all round a city would be astronomical.
Trolleybuses?!? It's not April fools!
I remember when that was proposed for Leeds, thought it was a silly idea then and I still think it is now.
Sam
 

Gingerbus1991

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Bottom line, as battery technology improves yet until the power density of a battery can be increased without changing the outer dimensions and weight, ergo allow a long distance of travel in one charge..

Yes, diesel is still the main player, although Cummins are anticipating a Euro7 emission regulation and have said they are prepared for it.

Lothians StreetAir buses have came to blows with the range not being quite what it was predicted to be.
 

VioletEclipse

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Bottom line, as battery technology improves yet until the power density of a battery can be increased without changing the outer dimensions and weight, ergo allow a long distance of travel in one charge..

Yes, diesel is still the main player, although Cummins are anticipating a Euro7 emission regulation and have said they are prepared for it.

Lothians StreetAir buses have came to blows with the range not being quite what it was predicted to be.
Electric technology is still developing, but I hope that in five years time diesel will no longer be the main player, and will be replaced by electricity.
 
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