West Lothian buses

[Gingerbus1991]

Lothian has tried to get a monopoly on the Queensferry road, yet the locals keep on using stagecoach express, why is that?

What CityLink’s 900 is to the M8 is “established”, similar situation on Queensferry Rd, when stagecoach operated the 43 there X-buses were simply faster, identically priced, and had been established for years before, they also do service a fair share of stops along queensferry rd and use modern vehicles, just look at there latest Panther LE’s, the stops that the X’s use are also quite prominently chosen along the route.

I was led to believe that lothian have been able to sustain the 43 quite well due to the route being simplified at the ferry, the 20 minute frequency using Deckers and lower fares from Queensferry itself, especially When the single from queensferry to edinburgh is considerably cheaper than the train from the ferry, infact from the ferry lothians £5 day ticket nearly matches a single on the train to the city centre, much of the houses along Queensferry Rd though are very upper market as you may know and are very likely to own 2 cars each, plenty of money = driveways with now parking restrictions or extra cost like stay in the city centre with a car..who wants a bus when youve got congestion to create of course....this lessens the need and successfulness that an all stop service such as the 43 and 41 can create.

 

[oldman]

How did LB 'try to get a monopoly' on the Queensferry road - they took on a route which Stagecoach had messed up and abandoned. They knew there would still be other companies' limited stop buses on the corridor, giving a faster service for the stops they serve.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

All this talk about ego trips grinds my gears, if Indeed many of us are "not" fan boys of any particular company why is there such a mood from this discussion that what LCB are doing is a bad thing, if FSE tryed to move in on other Lothian City routes would many bat an eye lash, likely not yet when lothian do this to first its a bad thing? fundamentally if any person is neutral they would not care of what LCB are trying to do but you would simply view it as what could be improved to better compete against FSE, if there is a negative attitude towards Lothian trying too compete its a simply view that LCB are seen as a threat to FSE, particularly if Lothian pulled there finger out and introduced like-for-like ticket prices on Weekly, Monthly and annual tickets.

I had to laugh at that one.... A person who saves up anti-First social media posts

The fact is that First have obviously mismanaged the old SMT business and it would folly to say otherwise. Foolish incursions in the past and a failure to invest in what they did have meant a protracted suicide in terms of mid and East Lothian. Think we all understand that.

The move to West Lothian is different. Calling out this as being an ego trip is as ill considered as declaring that someone isn't a real bus man; the reality is probably that they are looking to expand their base, reduce their exposure to a single market, and probably think that a weakened First will not be up for the fight so in terms of a strategic move, this probably makes sense.

However, my gut feeling is that First are probably more up for the fight than Lothian think. This is an operation that has recently benefitted from investment anyway so the "quality" card is more difficult to play. There's probably a decent business for one operator, but not two, and First have the advantage of being the incumbent. Whilst Lothian can indeed fund a fight, it isn't a free swing - the profit had already fallen over the last few years. I'd be very surprised if there haven't been substantial losses in the start up phase and if that turns out to be an on-going drain on profits, then questions will undoubtedly be asked.

I have criticised OTW in the past but I do tend to agree with him (assume it's a him) that were this to be a few years ago, then you may well expect First to simply pull out. However, First have shown over the last 4/5 years that they are more resilient and have seen off a number of competitors elsewhere. Even in Plymouth where they did eventually close down, they simply battened down the hatches and exited but on their terms and avoiding a wholesale capitulation and the exit costs.

 

[overthewater]

How did LB 'try to get a monopoly' on the Queensferry road - they took on a route which Stagecoach had messed up and abandoned. They knew there would still be other companies' limited stop buses on the corridor, giving a faster service for the stops they serve.

So were just going to irgnore the original no43 Lothian started when Stagecoach started 40/a?

 

[smtglasgow]

I think what rubs people up the wrong way is the perception that Lothian have simply decided that they should take control of West Lothian’s bus services, and everybody else should just roll over and accept it. Apart from Kirkliston, has there been any demand for Lothian to start running in WL?

But First aren’t showing any signs of pulling out of West Lothian: why would they? Which means Lothian have to try and build a sustainable network against an established operator. First are far from perfect, but they’ve got the power of incumbency – until something major happens, most regulars will just renew their season tickets. So Lothian have all the costs of setting up, the costs of running buses in and out of Longstone and a limited pool of revenue. The fact they have deep pockets means they can carry on longer than most, but at some point they’ll have to say enough is enough. Even Lothian’s business model can’t haemorrhage cash for ever`. Its not as if this is prime bus territory, or there are great synergies to made with the city ops. When Strathclyde Buses took over KCB in the 90s (a vaguely similar adjoining operator scenario), the two businesses overlapped and there were big savings and efficiencies to be made. Unless Lothian can make First an offer they can’t refuse (and would the CMA even allow it?), they seem to be stuck.

 

[overthewater]

Yes alot of people have been asking for Lothian to come back, this was during the dark ages which have now past. Buses are better, fares are better and overall the routes are mainly better.

Lothian attempt has been poor over all, however first has said if a good offer appeared it would take it, and thats for all parts of the UK ie reading saying here a sack of gold for the rest of Berkshire etc

I think first would take any offer and move the stock else where.

I doubt cma could stop it since blue bus still competes on two corridors, while most of the tenders are not with first.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

first has said if a good offer appeared it would take it, and thats for all parts of the UK ie reading saying here a sack of gold for the rest of Berkshire etc

I think first would take any offer and move the stock else where.

I read Matthew Gregory's comments slightly differently. More along the lines that divestments could be made but that the pensions issue "doesn't make it impossible but it does make it complicated" - he was saying 'never say never' but that the clamour for splitting things up and selling off should be calmed down as it isn't as straightforward.

In this case, I don't think they would take "any offer". First of all, it is on the balance sheet so if you sell it cheap, you take the loss. Then you have the pensions issue. More importantly, what signal does it send.... You can simply pitch up as per Lothian, register against First(as per Lothian), and they'll flog you their ops on the cheap? Note that even in Plymouth, when they sold, they sold not to Go Ahead. Hence why I think this particular battle is so interesting. Mind you, I don't think that First will do anything expansive with some incursion into the heart of Edinburgh - simply keep the majority of the fare payers and commuters, and if they lose £0.5m a year and Lothian lose twice that, it'll be worth it.

 

[Volvodart]

If West Lothian is profitable and goes, the expenses of the management would have to be split between just Aberdeen and Midland Bluebird and would be a greater burden on the lesser profits (or losses) they make.

 

[overthewater]

I read Matthew Gregory's comments slightly differently. More along the lines that divestments could be made but that the pensions issue "doesn't make it impossible but it does make it complicated" - he was saying 'never say never' but that the clamour for splitting things up and selling off should be calmed down as it isn't as straightforward.

In this case, I don't think they would take "any offer". First of all, it is on the balance sheet so if you sell it cheap, you take the loss. Then you have the pensions issue. More importantly, what signal does it send.... You can simply pitch up as per Lothian, register against First(as per Lothian), and they'll flog you their ops on the cheap? Note that even in Plymouth, when they sold, they sold not to Go Ahead. Hence why I think this particular battle is so interesting. Mind you, I don't think that First will do anything expansive with some incursion into the heart of Edinburgh - simply keep the majority of the fare payers and commuters, and if they lose £0.5m a year and Lothian lose twice that, it'll be worth it.

I believe if someone made First an offer it could not refuse ie A bag of gold First wouldnt turn it down, especially if any deal would including taken the pension over.

If FSE makes a lose of 0.5M it will still be in profit.

Midland Bluebird - Operating Loss = £1.1M on a turnover of £22.7M (Loss reduced, compared to a loss of £2M year before).
Scotland East - Operating profit = £639,000 on a turnover of £8.8M (Down from a profit of £809,000 year before).

If West Lothian is profitable and goes, the expenses of the management would have to be split between just Aberdeen and Midland Bluebird and would be a greater burden on the lesser profits (or losses) they make.

To be fair as you know, both MB and FSE have managed to make profits and loses, over the past 10 years its just for some unknown reason there can never keep it stable.. what Management got to do with it? Since most now cover all of Scotland?

Over on the LCB facebook page it postage this link, which praise the company from someone called Matt Harrison.
http://transportdesigned.com/ayearofbuses-27-x27-bathgate-edinburgh/

The only comment on that link is the following and its continues to repeat what already been said..

I would maybe agree with your comment ”putting the operator squarely in competition with First” had Lothian Country matched the cost or undercut First bus prices on the same route, however the fact is for us commuters who travel this route week in week out, when given the choice of two services which run the exact same route with one being cheaper than the other, price always wins!!
The only people who use Lothian Country services on this route are those who qualify for free travel and those who aren’t regular travelers. Surely this is the minority of business and Lothian Country wants to attract the majority?! If so, match or undercut the prices charged on the existing First service running the same route and we may be swayed!

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I believe if someone made First an offer it could not refuse ie A bag of gold First wouldnt turn it down, especially if any deal would including taken the pension over.

If FSE makes a lose of 0.5M it will still be in profit.





To be fair as you know, both MB and FSE have managed to make profits and loses, over the past 10 years its just for some unknown reason there can never keep it stable.. what Management got to do with it? Since most now cover all of Scotland?

Over on the LCB facebook page it postage this link, which praise the company from someone called Matt Harrison.
http://transportdesigned.com/ayearofbuses-27-x27-bathgate-edinburgh/

The only comment on that link is the following and its continues to repeat what already been said..

Think the poster was saying the management overhead would be same but spread over fewer operations.

Not certain who’d be waiting with a sack of gold to purchase an operation with a competitor either.

 

[Driver362]

I agree certainly that Lothian City's £1.70 single is starting to look abit pricey, especially if you only plan on a small journey but don't want to walk, but many in Edinburgh seemingly come across as accepting it as they still get a well rounded, reliable service across most of the city.

Of course...there was no need on the basis that things may have improved within FSE, the services and vehicles it operates, of course there is a poor track record of First group regardless of its subsidiaries position and no one has said that these supposed improvements will be indefinite.

All this talk about ego trips grinds my gears, if Indeed many of us are "not" fan boys of any particular company why is there such a mood from this discussion that what LCB are doing is a bad thing, if FSE tryed to move in on other Lothian City routes would many bat an eye lash, likely not yet when lothian do this to first its a bad thing? fundamentally if any person is neutral they would not care of what LCB are trying to do but you would simply view it as what could be improved to better compete against FSE, if there is a negative attitude towards Lothian trying too compete its a simply view that LCB are seen as a threat to FSE, particularly if Lothian pulled there finger out and introduced like-for-like ticket prices on Weekly, Monthly and annual tickets.[/QUO

I to find the ego trip statements a bit tiring ,there also seems to be plenty presumptuous opinion in regard to lothian's move into West Lothian , a lot of people on here probably have never seen mr hall , never mind spoken to him , but feel qualified to label him an egotistical gentleman intent on world domination.as you guys know work for lcb . I have met mr hall a few times and had a good chat with him about buses . I can categorically tell you he is very much bus man ! Finally as an driver I see improved growth week on week .for the record im.no fan boy just someone in a position to dispel a few statements

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I to find the ego trip statements a bit tiring ,there also seems to be plenty presumptuous opinion in regard to lothian's move into West Lothian , a lot of people on here probably have never seen mr hall , never mind spoken to him , but feel qualified to label him an egotistical gentleman intent on world domination.as you guys know work for lcb . I have met mr hall a few times and had a good chat with him about buses . I can categorically tell you he is very much bus man ! Finally as an driver I see improved growth week on week .for the record im.no fan boy just someone in a position to dispel a few statements

I can only agree with your opening point but on a more general basis.

I get thoroughly hacked off with people who feel free to criticise managers in whatever firm and regard them as idiots - see Gingerbus’ criticism of Andrew Jarvis as “not a bus man” when he’s run the family bus firm before joining the corporates! Don’t get me wrong - management are people and so, like us all, can make mistakes. They may even have an ego but most of the ones I’ve met have been knowledgable and professional. As well as being businessmen, they are invariably very enthusiastic but this is tempered by knowing that they have a job to do.

I am still dubious on the merits of this incursion but I suspect it has more to do with a well intentioned belief of a commercial success than empire building.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

They both have some what of an ego, most management types do, I have never spoke to any of them to be fair but have been in Jarvises company are the 75 launch at George's Square, if there is one thing hall has to be proud of its the amount of respect that lothian has gained from its passengers under his authority, jarvis made a small speech at George Square yet most of the public took a glance and walked on, that does only say something big about local perception but by extension the people who run the companies too, First managers tend to be more delusional to how well they think there company is looked upon(by glasgow standards at least).

As I had said before on here I foolishly on a whim applied back to First Glasgow for a job last year and but turned it down which was the best decision, it is a useless Company to work for, The Depot Manager I was interviewed by even asked me at one point, With. Company with a high reputation hoe should you(I) conduct yourself? I was honestly sniggering and laughing at that question inside, obviously out of touch with what there passengers that are left think.

Of topic, apologies.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They both have some what of an ego, most management types do, I have never spoke to any of them to be fair but have been in Jarvises company are the 75 launch at George's Square, if there is one thing hall has to be proud of its the amount of respect that lothian has gained from its passengers under his authority, jarvis made a small speech at George Square yet most of the public took a glance and walked on, that does only say something big about local perception but by extension the people who run the companies too, First managers tend to be more delusional to how well they think there company is looked upon(by glasgow standards at least).

As I had said before on here I foolishly on a whim applied back to First Glasgow for a job last year and but turned it down which was the best decision, it is a useless Company to work for, The Depot Manager I was interviewed by even asked me at one point, With. Company with a high reputation hoe should you(I) conduct yourself? I was honestly sniggering and laughing at that question inside, obviously out of touch with what there passengers that are left think.

Of topic, apologies.

Short of it being a celebrity, I doubt many of Joe Public would stop and listen to some bus company manager. I’d assume it was for the benefit of the dignitaries who were there.

As for delusional First management, again you’re talking rubbish. I’ve met Nigel Eggleton and he’s a very level headed individual. Same for James Freeman, and remember that these guys have a wealth of experience and have worked across the industry so not some sort of institutionalised cult. These, like Mr Jarvis, have worked for Arriva, Stagecoach, Transdev etc and indeed, their antecedents.

Sadly, you seem to be something of a Lothian fanboi with an anti-First obsession. Your harvesting and retention of old anti-First social media posts certainly suggests the latter.

 

[overthewater]

First does have good manager alas there not the one that hold the real power, and that what causes the trouble. I have spoken with Jarvis's a few time off the cuff he does know his stuff but he is working within a difficult situation. While he was at Stagecoach had jazzy expo on the new buses and coaches. But some of the route changes and subsequent cut backs were highly questionable at the time.

I agree with TGW Im also dubious over the merits of Lothian it realy just seem pointless, I could understand part of the 275 route, and X27/28 but the rest just makes you wonder.

Short of it being a celebrity, I doubt many of Joe Public would stop and listen to some bus company manager. I’d assume it was for the benefit of the dignitaries who were there.

Not many listened to Des Clark either or the Glasgow lions american football players on that day. But people did want to take a look on the new bus and speak with the managers about certain ongoing issues.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

First does have good manager alas there not the one that hold the real power, and that what causes the trouble. I have spoken with Jarvis's a few time off the cuff he does know his stuff but he is working within a difficult situation. While he was at Stagecoach had jazzy expo on the new buses and coaches. But some of the route changes and subsequent cut backs were highly questionable at the time.

I agree with TGW Im also dubious over the merits of Lothian it realy just seem pointless, I could understand part of the 275 route, and X27/28 but the rest just makes you wonder.



Not many listened to Des Clark either or the Glasgow lions american football players on that day. But people did want to take a look on the new bus and speak with the managers about certain ongoing issues.

It’s not so much that they don’t have power. Just the sins of the past mean a challenging climate in order to get finances for new buses etc.

To be fair, those are the same fights in any corporate environment, whether a bus company, retailer, or widget manufacturer. Just in First, the purse has less money in it.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Short of it being a celebrity, I doubt many of Joe Public would stop and listen to some bus company manager. I’d assume it was for the benefit of the dignitaries who were there.

As for delusional First management, again you’re talking rubbish. I’ve met Nigel Eggleton and he’s a very level headed individual. Same for James Freeman, and remember that these guys have a wealth of experience and have worked across the industry so not some sort of institutionalised cult. These, like Mr Jarvis, have worked for Arriva, Stagecoach, Transdev etc and indeed, their antecedents.

Sadly, you seem to be something of a Lothian fanboi with an anti-First obsession. Your harvesting and retention of old anti-First social media posts certainly suggests the latter.

In a way I probably am to many, there buses are clean, well respected, there drivers? Happier than that usually found in Glasgow, to me that says the company respects them just that little bit more as employee ergo there happier at work..I could go on but theres plenty of time for that.

Social media usually says alot and its not all nonsense, Lothians twitter followers = nearly 100k/FiG's 40k despite glasgow eclipsing Edinburgh on population FiGs ridership is at a new low and it isn't all because of train networks, that says alot about the people in Edinburgh being far happier with what they are offered yet near daily a minority on First Glasgows twitter have something that's let them down despite Lothian having 3x the amount of followers that could potentially have the same things to say..

 

[Gingerbus1991]

First does have good manager alas there not the one that hold the real power, and that what causes the trouble. I have spoken with Jarvis's a few time off the cuff he does know his stuff but he is working within a difficult situation. While he was at Stagecoach had jazzy expo on the new buses and coaches. But some of the route changes and subsequent cut backs were highly questionable at the time.

I agree with TGW Im also dubious over the merits of Lothian it realy just seem pointless, I could understand part of the 275 route, and X27/28 but the rest just makes you wonder.



Not many listened to Des Clark either or the Glasgow lions american football players on that day. But people did want to take a look on the new bus and speak with the managers about certain ongoing issues.

This I can understand(in bold), although there 2018 order was no different nor better in anyway than the 2015 orders they placed, the simply tryed abit of fancy advertising of "life sized toy bus in a box".

Give it 6 months and the "New" appeal will have worn off with manky floors, seats and god knows what else, in a way Glasgows residents are too partly blame.

 

[Jordan Adam]

In a way I probably am to many, there buses are clean, well respected, there drivers? Happier than that usually found in Glasgow, to me that says the company respects them just that little bit more as employee ergo there happier at work..I could go on but theres plenty of time for that.

Social media usually says alot and its not all nonsense, Lothians twitter followers = nearly 100k/FiG's 40k despite glasgow eclipsing Edinburgh on population FiGs ridership is at a new low and it isn't all because of train networks, that says alot about the people in Edinburgh being far happier with what they are offered yet near daily a minority on First Glasgows twitter have something that's let them down despite Lothian having 3x the amount of followers that could potentially have the same things to say..

This is pretty laughable, Edinburgh has a much larger tourist and student population, many of the followers don't even live in Edinburgh! This does make up for quite a small percentage of their follows however Lothian tend to post more which attracts higher numbers of spam/fake accounts, further to that Lothian is quite popular with Enthusiasts due to their over the top PR. Their reputation has been hit badly lately though by the whole GDPR scandal, however that's another topic for a different day. Your level of bias shown on these threads is extraordinary, anytime First do something you have to criticise them. the launch last year was actually more to signify the investment in new buses (awaits your predictable moan that the investment is overdue). I generally don't find Lothian drivers any happier than those of any other company, out of anything they can quite rude at times, but this applies with all operators. The "what company has the better drivers" is one of the most ridiculous arguments there is, there is no such thing as one operator having better drivers than the other. If First Glasgow is anywhere near as bad as you constantly protest then why don't you move house to Edinburgh, you'd love it there!

 

[Gingerbus1991]

This is pretty laughable, Edinburgh has a much larger tourist and student population, many of the followers don't even live in Edinburgh! This does make up for quite a small percentage of their follows however Lothian tend to post more which attracts higher numbers of spam/fake accounts, further to that Lothian is quite popular with Enthusiasts due to their over the top PR. Their reputation has been hit badly lately though by the whole GDPR scandal, however that's another topic for a different day. Your level of bias shown on these threads is extraordinary, anytime First do something you have to criticise them. the launch last year was actually more to signify the investment in new buses (awaits your predictable moan that the investment is overdue). I generally don't find Lothian drivers any happier than those of any other company, out of anything they can quite rude at times, but this applies with all operators. The "what company has the better drivers" is one of the most ridiculous arguments there is, there is no such thing as one operator having better drivers than the other. If First Glasgow is anywhere near as bad as you constantly protest then why don't you move house to Edinburgh, you'd love it there!

No moan this time, I did stay in edinburgh when I worked there, family all stay in glasgow, but generally speaking Edinburgh didnt suit me as a whole, far to many snoots kicking about edinburgh.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

In my view Glasgow is behind Edinburgh but both are miles behind where they should be. That's mainly down to industry trends atmo

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Ironically and despite my disposition towards “any” bus group, working at lothian made me a more toxic bus driver than I had ever been before, but in different ways than what stagecoach or first had effected me, with stagecoach it was more about the maintence standards that were appauling, something that didnt plague lothian.

Hence my change of career to a HGV job nearly 8 months ago, I actually could’nt be happier now and I absolutely can’t recommend it enough!

My particular likingness for lothian is more to do with there fleet and its appearance, big fanboy of Alcoa Durabrights and the colour scheme they’ve used for years, its looks way more polished that other schemes, they feel more special that those buses found in the west, as said before First need a revamp for a special livery for Glasgow, one which is dedicated to that area, despite the new buses in glasgow a new livery would certainly make many take another look, the lilacs very bland in any case.

Whilst enthuisiasts can dictate if a Gemini is better than an Enviro doesnt mean bus passengers can, however passengers will feel a difference in Lothians latest, I can confirm however that from a drivers point of view and one that does benefit them is the Interior Spotlights lothian choose, they cut way down on reflections on the inside of the windscreen at night, a practical benefit, not just an aesthetic benefit.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

In my view Glasgow is behind Edinburgh but both are miles behind where they should be. That's mainly down to industry trends atmo

Far more government and financial support is needed more than ever, regardless of company.

Of course the trains arent doing much better either atm.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

In a way I probably am to many, there buses are clean, well respected, there drivers? Happier than that usually found in Glasgow, to me that says the company respects them just that little bit more as employee ergo there happier at work..I could go on but theres plenty of time for that.

Social media usually says alot and its not all nonsense, Lothians twitter followers = nearly 100k/FiG's 40k despite glasgow eclipsing Edinburgh on population FiGs ridership is at a new low and it isn't all because of train networks, that says alot about the people in Edinburgh being far happier with what they are offered yet near daily a minority on First Glasgows twitter have something that's let them down despite Lothian having 3x the amount of followers that could potentially have the same things to say..

So how many Twitter followers demonstrates how good a business you are? In comparison with the size of the city?

Working on that "logic" then Lothian (with a 1:5 ratio of followers) then Reading Buses must be rubbish at 1:20. Think that illustrates how flawed that "logic" is

 

[In Focus]

What CityLink’s 900 is to the M8 is “established”, similar situation on Queensferry Rd, when stagecoach operated the 43 there X-buses were simply faster, identically priced, and had been established for years before, they also do service a fair share of stops along queensferry rd and use modern vehicles, just look at there latest Panther LE’s, the stops that the X’s use are also quite prominently chosen along the route.

I was led to believe that lothian have been able to sustain the 43 quite well due to the route being simplified at the ferry, the 20 minute frequency using Deckers and lower fares from Queensferry itself, especially When the single from queensferry to edinburgh is considerably cheaper than the train from the ferry, infact from the ferry lothians £5 day ticket nearly matches a single on the train to the city centre, much of the houses along Queensferry Rd though are very upper market as you may know and are very likely to own 2 cars each, plenty of money = driveways with now parking restrictions or extra cost like stay in the city centre with a car..who wants a bus when youve got congestion to create of course....this lessens the need and successfulness that an all stop service such as the 43 and 41 can create.

I heard there had been a subsidy put on it that was not available to either Stagecoach nor Firstgroup when they operated that route. This is the reason it has suddenly become sustainable.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

So how many Twitter followers demonstrates how good a business you are? In comparison with the size of the city?

Working on that "logic" then Lothian (with a 1:5 ratio of followers) then Reading Buses must be rubbish at 1:20. Think that illustrates how flawed that "logic" is

Not overly interested in whats happening outside of scotland thanks.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I heard there had been a subsidy put on it that was not available to either Stagecoach nor Firstgroup when they operated that route. This is the reason it has suddenly become sustainable.

Makes sense if Edinburgh Council dont mind doing that for the company it owns.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Makes sense if Edinburgh Council dont mind doing that for the company it owns.

I doubt it's a council subsidy that anyone is talking about on the Lothian Country 43, and there's no development gain at present either. In contrast, both have been available for Lothian Buses 63, so maybe that's where the confusion has arisen.

First were able to sustain the same 43 route with the same resources prior to Stagecoach introducing the 40/40A, and of course prior to running it from Deans.

 

[In Focus]

Makes sense if Edinburgh Council dont mind doing that for the company it owns.

However if a subsidy was to be offered then I'm sure by law it has to go out to tender.

 

[In Focus]

I doubt it's a council subsidy that anyone is talking about on the Lothian Country 43, and there's no development gain at present either. In contrast, both have been available for Lothian Buses 63, so maybe that's where the confusion has arisen.

First were able to sustain the same 43 route with the same resources prior to Stagecoach introducing the 40/40A, and of course prior to running it from Deans.

First had made losses on it for years when it run out of Linlithgow depot, that was further compounded when it moved to Livingston and all the complications that went with that idiotic idea .