West Lothian buses

[Siemens Trains]

Why would First give away the main Edinburgh Corridors when it's probably the most profitable part? You can't jump in, throw your weight around and expect to be given the best goods.

First have plied Edinburgh corridors for many years, witnessed the decline and reduced frequencies accordingly to the point where they were probably close to giving up on them. They've tried diverting into retail parks and industrial estates but none of these routes have been sustainable. Both First and Stagecoach tried north Edinburgh without success. I'm not sure how well the 600 service is doing - maybe it will buck the trend. But generally only Lothian can do well here - if necesary they can afford to reduce resources on some of their other routes.

 

[In Focus]

Deregulation was supposed to bring about a higher level of competition and cheaper fare prices, the opposite is actually true hence why multiple operators created a nessessity for the "Tripper Ticket" I Glasgow.

Essentially it still doesn't work in a modern world where multiple operators clamber for superiority.

This is on part where I feel regulation would've prevented lothians pushing in on West Lothian.

It certainly didn't work in Edinburgh where Lothian have a virtual monopoly and it seens no other operator of any stature want to take them on ,which based on other cities in UK is a very strange situation and one which makes you wonder if it's politically motivated .

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

Why would First give away the main Edinburgh Corridors when it's probably the most profitable part? You can't jump in, throw your weight around and expect to be given the best goods.

As others have said the most profitable part is now the within West Lothian stuff. This goes for both companies. First have adjusted there network to try and suit it better. LC have 'played it safe' you could say. Once the Shotts line starts running electrics next month it's gonna change the game even further. The most profitable part of both operations is the Livi Centre to Bathgate corridor (obvs inclduding your top to bottom bit of Livi). The Edinburgh loads during the day pretty much are whatever turns up first. Commuters on the A71 corridor are kind of a 50:50 split

Today I was on 275, it picked up everyone until 24 overtook and then it picked up everyone. Shows you how a lot of the customers think hehe

600 is doing well within West Lothian but in terms of to and from Airport itself its not succesful outside of the peak hours. I think having it go through Winchburgh makes people know it's slower so perhaps swap the 24 and 600 over (or something similar) and patronage to the Airport outside of the peak might increase

 

[In Focus]

First have plied Edinburgh corridors for many years, witnessed the decline and reduced frequencies accordingly to the point where they were probably close to giving up on them. They've tried diverting into retail parks and industrial estates but none of these routes have been sustainable. Both First and Stagecoach tried north Edinburgh without success. I'm not sure how well the 600 service is doing - maybe it will buck the trend. But generally only Lothian can do well here - if necesary they can afford to reduce resources on some of their other routes.

The 27 / 28 routes were a financial disaster for First , the 21 and 22 made their monies in the West within West Lothian .
The only chance First have of increasing numbers on their 2 corridors is to drop the fare to a £1 flat fare into town from the borders of the M Zone and hope it attracts the value seekers ,Lothian won't do this in one area so it gives First a chance.
The 600 does OK but is nothing to set the World on fire as it stands ,expect it to go East to Edinburgh from Airport to tackle the 100 at some point .

 

[Siemens Trains]

It certainly didn't work in Edinburgh where Lothian have a virtual monopoly and it seens no other operator of any stature want to take them on ,which based on other cities in UK is a very strange situation and one which makes you wonder if it's politically motivated .

Possibly an unusual situation, but I think you'd struggle to find another UK city with more comprehensive bus service coverage and higher passenger satisfaction levels. It would take a brave person (whether politician or traffic commissioner) to interfere with the Edinburgh monopoly.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

First have plied Edinburgh corridors for many years, witnessed the decline and reduced frequencies accordingly to the point where they were probably close to giving up on them. They've tried diverting into retail parks and industrial estates but none of these routes have been sustainable. Both First and Stagecoach tried north Edinburgh without success. I'm not sure how well the 600 service is doing - maybe it will buck the trend. But generally only Lothian can do well here - if necesary they can afford to reduce resources on some of their other routes.

I think many people in Central Scotland have became accustomed to First running at the 1st sign of anything other than a school buses.

It certainly didn't work in Edinburgh where Lothian have a virtual monopoly and it seens no other operator of any stature want to take them on ,which based on other cities in UK is a very strange situation and one which makes you wonder if it's politically motivated .

Political motivation on a monopoly, your referring to all the Lothian "Brands" combined? City, East Coast Tours etc?

As far as I'm aware Borders Buses, Stagecoach and of course First Scotland East are all still running into the City, this is what likely would make the Markets Authority accept what's happening anyways.

I do think Monopolies work well if the designated company is doing a decent job, which on the face of things Lothian do pretty well for the most part.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Possibly an unusual situation, but I think you'd struggle to find another UK city with more comprehensive bus service coverage and higher passenger satisfaction levels. It would take a brave person (whether politician or traffic commissioner) to interfere with the Edinburgh monopoly.

Funnily enough I see the truth in what you say, however I think it's odd that I've head the CMA say that monopolies are not in the publics Interests, which alot of the time is foolish to say.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

An even larger dent on Firsts space is still to be achieved, it will only take a properly well priced Weekly and Monthly tickets to do that, Bring on the Ridacard!

 

[Tartanarmy85]

The 27 / 28 routes were a financial disaster for First , the 21 and 22 made their monies in the West within West Lothian .
The only chance First have of increasing numbers on their 2 corridors is to drop the fare to a £1 flat fare into town from the borders of the M Zone and hope it attracts the value seekers ,Lothian won't do this in one area so it gives First a chance.
The 600 does OK but is nothing to set the World on fire as it stands ,expect it to go East to Edinburgh from Airport to tackle the 100 at some point .

600 doing well and going compete against the 100? Never happen

 

[Gingerbus1991]

The 27 / 28 routes were a financial disaster for First , the 21 and 22 made their monies in the West within West Lothian .
The only chance First have of increasing numbers on their 2 corridors is to drop the fare to a £1 flat fare into town from the borders of the M Zone and hope it attracts the value seekers ,Lothian won't do this in one area so it gives First a chance.
The 600 does OK but is nothing to set the World on fire as it stands ,expect it to go East to Edinburgh from Airport to tackle the 100 at some point .

Feasable assumption, but the 100 being at least every 10 minutes and it already being very well integrated into the city as the main airport service I don't think the 600 would work very well.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

First should just sit and hold there ground. They have the upper hand as it is. Trying stuff in Edinburgh that they know will fail will just shoot themselves in the foot. LC at least have a chance of success in WL, even if it is a low one.

Strange point that nobody has really considered but maybe WLC asked Lothian about trying something to actually get something from their investment. Admittedly Lothian have taken it to a much bigger scale in that case

 

[Siemens Trains]

First should just sit and hold there ground. They have the upper hand as it is. Trying stuff in Edinburgh that they know will fail will just shoot themselves in the foot. LC at least have a chance of success in WL, even if it is a low one.

Strange point that nobody has really considered but maybe WLC asked Lothian about trying something to actually get something from their investment. Admittedly Lothian have taken it to a much bigger scale in that case

A strange point indeed, quite unlikely, and probably not above board from a legal perspective.
From what I recall, the only operational obligation Lothian have to their council shareholders is to run services that are mostly within the former Lothian Region Council area - ie they aren't meant to go for routes like the X95 to Carlisle. Probably an easy one to get out of if there's significant profit to be made - but as lots of people have pointed out, Edinburgh is a different bus environment to the rest of Scotland so Lothian's model won't necessarily work well anywhere else. And expanding into remote depots isn't really their bag.

 

[overthewater]

Why would First give away the main Edinburgh Corridors when it's probably the most profitable part? You can't jump in, throw your weight around and expect to be given the best goods.

Buses into Edinburgh haven't been busy in years, and the 38 are just as bad. Not to say you can get half decent load on one of the certain mid morning runs etc

First have plied Edinburgh corridors for many years, witnessed the decline and reduced frequencies accordingly to the point where they were probably close to giving up on them. They've tried diverting into retail parks and industrial estates but none of these routes have been sustainable. Both First and Stagecoach tried north Edinburgh without success. I'm not sure how well the 600 service is doing - maybe it will buck the trend. But generally only Lothian can do well here - if necesary they can afford to reduce resources on some of their other routes.

Part of the problems with both companies where the resources where not available. 631 and X50 were both chopped to save over all pennies. I do know alot of the X50 driver went the wrong way and that peed off alot of passengers so people stopped using it. Now Stagecoach stops just before blackhall to connect with the 200, give better access to collage, gas office and Leith.

First should just sit and hold there ground. They have the upper hand as it is. Trying stuff in Edinburgh that they know will fail will just shoot themselves in the foot. LC at least have a chance of success in WL, even if it is a low one.

Strange point that nobody has really considered but maybe WLC asked Lothian about trying something to actually get something from their investment. Admittedly Lothian have taken it to a much bigger scale in that case

Phrase 1 did tick all those boxes, ie bus link to Gyle etc

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Could we really say Lothian pull right back so its just 275, X18 and x27/x28 with hopes of extra buses going into other parts of Edinburgh? interesting point

 

[In Focus]

Possibly an unusual situation, but I think you'd struggle to find another UK city with more comprehensive bus service coverage and higher passenger satisfaction levels. It would take a brave person (whether politician or traffic commissioner) to interfere with the Edinburgh monopoly.

Its not stopped the usual suspects from doing if in nearly every other city .
Not saying it would be as good as Lothian but the money on offer is surely worth a punt ? Bit for some reason no one has taken the gamble.

 

[In Focus]

Feasable assumption, but the 100 being at least every 10 minutes and it already being very well integrated into the city as the main airport service I don't think the 600 would work very well.

Depends on pricing and frequency , First certainly do Glasgow Airport (500 ) quite well and buses could if required be made available . And tourists/business people have no allegiance and it's a licence to print ££££

 

[Driver362]

There are multiple units within West Lothian that they could have had , just wonder why they are dithering so long ...

why are you so concerned ? These deals take time ,watch this space

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Depends on pricing and frequency , First certainly do Glasgow Airport (500 ) quite well and buses could if required be made available . And tourists/business people have no allegiance and it's a licence to print ££££

Let me paint you a picture.. A tourist asks an airport steward how I get to the City Centre, given the steward has very likely been asked this before, what do you think the reply will be? Take the 100/tram or 600...

 

[Siemens Trains]

Let me paint you a picture.. A tourist asks an airport steward how I get to the City Centre, given the steward has very likely been asked this before, what do you think the reply will be? Take the 100/tram or 600...

The default position for any tourist visiting Edinburgh and doing some homework will be a Lothian Buses service - they're clearly advertised on the website. Those who aren't very comfortable using buses (unfamiliar with the area etc) would take the tram or try for a taxi. Staff and the occasional holidaymaker who resides in the area might use another operator - for example the 747 does pretty well from Inverkeithing and P&R sites in Fife. There isn't business for any other operator to the city centre and rather sparse trade on routes outwith the urban area. As for competition, nobody wants the buses turning out like the awful situation where private hire cars mix with taxis and dazed passengers don't know whether they're being ripped off or not.

 

[Tartanarmy85]

The default position for any tourist visiting Edinburgh and doing some homework will be a Lothian Buses service - they're clearly advertised on the website. Those who aren't very comfortable using buses (unfamiliar with the area etc) would take the tram or try for a taxi. Staff and the occasional holidaymaker who resides in the area might use another operator - for example the 747 does pretty well from Inverkeithing and P&R sites in Fife. There isn't business for any other operator to the city centre and rather sparse trade on routes outwith the urban area. As for competition,
nobody wants the buses turning out like the awful situation where private hire cars mix with taxis and dazed passengers don't know whether they're being ripped off or not.

Folk travelling to West Lothian I tell buy a network Lothian ticket as cheaper more convenient I work for neither first or Lothian help but get asked from Airport

 

[overthewater]

Folk travelling to West Lothian I tell buy a network Lothian ticket as cheaper more convenient I work for neither first or Lothian help but get asked from Airport

If your talking about from the Airport, that neither helpful or useful Lothan day ticket cost £9 First day ticket cost £7.50.

I should point out there is alot of people using the First service to Ratho change over to the 747.

 

[In Focus]

why are you so concerned ? These deals take time ,watch this space

Concerned ? That's a bit strong for a question asked in a debate is it not?

 

[In Focus]

Let me paint you a picture.. A tourist asks an airport steward how I get to the City Centre, given the steward has very likely been asked this before, what do you think the reply will be? Take the 100/tram or 600...

Or do you think they will say take the £1 bus ?
So by your reckoning in Livingston if they ask at the desk at centre for. Bus to bathgate they will be told get 25 as it's been here longer ?

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Possibly, depends entirely on the staffs knowledge I suppose, given that we are on about West Lothian here the 25 has been established for that bit longer than the other offerings.

 

[smtglasgow]

But isn’t part of the problem that First have revised their network so many times in the last decade or so that none of their services have any real ‘history’. After all, the 25 is only 6 months old.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I suppose, how long has LB had there 100 operating.

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

I suppose, how long has LB had there 100 operating.

Pretty much since Edinburgh Airport got its name. That I think happened in 1977 but the 100 possibly may have been a few years after that

 

[overthewater]

Yet its wasn't the only operator.. Guide friday had a service to the airport using clamp out buses.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

But isn’t part of the problem that First have revised their network so many times in the last decade or so that none of their services have any real ‘history’. After all, the 25 is only 6 months old.

A bit of topic but before the new network revamp last year, was the 25 Route still there but under a different number? like how the 27/28 became the 23/X23? I remember someone saying how the old 20 is like the currently X18, but what about the 21/22? where did they go and we’re they popular? I understand the revamp was done because some of these old routes weren’t doing so well so I’m just curious in a great debt as to why?

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

A bit of topic but before the new network revamp last year, was the 25 Route still there but under a different number? like how the 27/28 became the 23/X23? I remember someone saying how the old 20 is like the currently X18, but what about the 21/22? where did they go and we’re they popular? I understand the revamp was done because some of these old routes weren’t doing so well so I’m just curious in a great debt as to why?

The current 23/X23 is quite a fair bit different to the old 27/X27/28/X28. The 25 was a basically a mash of part of the 21 and part of the 800/801 with a few tweaks

 

[TheEastCoaster]

The current 23/X23 is quite a fair bit different to the old 27/X27/28/X28. The 25 was a basically a mash of part of the 21 and part of the 800/801 with a few tweaks

I did get that part, like I know it doesn’t extend to Bathgate anymore, I mind there was alsp a service that ran to Queensferry Tesco too, and the 21a to Edinburgh Parn which is what the 275 replaced if I’m correct?