West Lothian buses

[Darklord8899]

Speaking of these 2 subsidiaries will their drivers go on strike along with Lothians drivers should this action escalate or will they continue to work and undermine their Lothian colleagues ?

A very good question!

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I hope it doesn't ever get that big

I agree, it feels right that they stay too the lothians!

 

[tbtc]

I'd forgotten in my previous comments that First SE had also given Lothian a 'taste' of West Lothian, in withdrawing their 43/X43 on top of all the East Lothian ops. How does that route perform now under Lothian Country, in comparison to First ?

To be pedantic, the 43 route is wholly inside "Edinburgh" - whilst the traditional LRT network didn't cross the Almond at Cramond Brig, the South Queensferry/ Dalmeny conurbation is entirely inside the Edinburgh boundaries, just like Kirkliston/ Newbridge.

West Lothian starts at Winchburgh/ Broxburn/ Kirknewton, but for historic reasons the buses to South Queensferry (and Kirkliston etc) were Scottish Bus Group rather than Lothian Regional Transport.

(I know what you mean, I think that, to a lot of people, South Queensferry doesn't appear part of the city of Edinburgh but for whatever reasons the locals pay their taxes to Edinburgh)

 

[Siemens Trains]

To be pedantic, the 43 route is wholly inside "Edinburgh" - whilst the traditional LRT network didn't cross the Almond at Cramond Brig, the South Queensferry/ Dalmeny conurbation is entirely inside the Edinburgh boundaries, just like Kirkliston/ Newbridge.

West Lothian starts at Winchburgh/ Broxburn/ Kirknewton, but for historic reasons the buses to South Queensferry (and Kirkliston etc) were Scottish Bus Group rather than Lothian Regional Transport.

(I know what you mean, I think that, to a lot of people, South Queensferry doesn't appear part of the city of Edinburgh but for whatever reasons the locals pay their taxes to Edinburgh)

Indeed. It's a pedantic fact maybe not lost on Lothian Buses, who boast that they offer contactless payment on all their Lothian Country routes in West Lothian. Some passengers incorrectly assume this also applies to the 43 route because they see things like the postal addresses for South Queensferry saying West Lothian and the buses branded as Lothian Country. But of course, Lothian Country's 43 doesn't accept contactless payment and, as you say, its route is wholly within the City of Edinburgh Council area (not that a council name should necessarily define where people think they live).
As this can be rather confusing I do wish Lothian had been clearer in their publicity.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

Indeed. It's a pedantic fact maybe not lost on Lothian Buses, who boast that they offer contactless payment on all their Lothian Country routes in West Lothian. Some passengers incorrectly assume this also applies to the 43 route because they see things like the postal addresses for South Queensferry saying West Lothian and the buses branded as Lothian Country. But of course, Lothian Country's 43 doesn't accept contactless payment and, as you say, its route is wholly within the City of Edinburgh Council area (not that a council name should necessarily define where people think they live).
As this can be rather confusing I do wish Lothian had been clearer in their publicity.

To be honest ever since the West Lothian venture started its almost as if Lothian Country has forgotten about the 43

 

[Darklord8899]

I'm sure this won't happen......
Given that the 43 doesn't have contactless and is operated from Central and not Longstone, like the rest of LCB, swap the 43 to be a Lothian City service (keeping the City West zone for cash fares)

Then the City West zone can be removed from the rest of the LCB Network offering more appealing fares....

 

[FlybeDash8Q400]

To be honest ever since the West Lothian venture started its almost as if Lothian Country has forgotten about the 43

It's because in a legal sense it's run by LC but in a practical sense it's run by Lothian. I'd personally like to see the zones dropped and run as a standard Lothian route, though I highly doubt this would be viable

 

[Siemens Trains]

To be honest ever since the West Lothian venture started its almost as if Lothian Country has forgotten about the 43

From what I can make out, the 43 was never really part of the Lothian Country plan. When Stagecoach announced they were pulling the plug, the route became a dubious opportunity. I don't make a careful study of passenger loadings for the West Lothian routes, but I suspect that the 43 may have turned out to be better performing than a few others. Of course it's difficult to make comparisons on revenues given the complexities of Ridacards, short hop journeys, day tickets and concession fares.

 

[Siemens Trains]

I'm sure this won't happen......
Given that the 43 doesn't have contactless and is operated from Central and not Longstone, like the rest of LCB, swap the 43 to be a Lothian City service (keeping the City West zone for cash fares)

Then the City West zone can be removed from the rest of the LCB Network offering more appealing fares....

Maybe not - the 43 surely wouldn't be profitable using Lothian City fares. But a few Midlothian routes must be quite marginal too. How about....a variety of routes presently thought of as having a Lothian City brand, but serving historically out-of-town areas, joining the 43. Becoming a Lothian Country 'Lite' brigade, if you like. Examples might be the 37, 47, 29, 33 and 49.

These would charge higher fares for places like Penicuik or Dalkeith, for example the £2.70 single and £5 day ticket, but maybe accepting standard Ridacards similar to the CityWEST arrangement. Might raise eyebrows for exploiting a monopoly, as there's little competition in Midlothian.

Don't know if it's likely - just thinking out loud, as you'd identified that the 43 is rather out on a limb.

 

[oldman]

When the 43 was introduced they said it would be a separate company but in fact it is still operated by Lothian Buses and just branded LCB because it is not flat fare. The whole branding thing is a mess - you look on the LB website and they don't list the ECB routes even though some of them depend on traffic from the core Lothian area, much more so than the West Lothian routes which are listed.

The Lothian City brand is worrying if it indicates an intention to detach East and Midlothian from the flat fare zone, which I think would be a bad idea.

 

[smtglasgow]

Midlothian shows up the downside of flat fares. By any reasonable measure Penicuik or Newtongrange into the city for £1.70 is a bargain, and well below the fare for similar distances in any city outside London. But how do you tell people that have grown used to cheap fares that, sorry, we’ve been undercharging you, and your fare needs to go up by a £1? You'd have to be very brave to do it, and I think Lothian at the moment are so addicted to positive spin/PR that they wouldn't go there.

 

[Journeyman]

I don't know how marginal it was when First operated it, or how marginal it is now, though they have improved the service since they started it.

Back in the days when First operated the 43 from Linlithgow depot, it was regarded as one of the company's most prestigious and profitable routes, and it was always allocated the newest vehicles. The rot set in when Linlithgow depot closed and it was transferred to Livingston, which massively increased operating costs because of the dead mileage. The route's users were also extremely vocal when things went wrong, and were very unhappy about the exact-fare-only imposition that came when the operating depot changed.

 

[oldman]

The rot set in when Linlithgow depot closed and it was transferred to Livingston, which massively increased operating costs because of the dead mileage.

According to Google, Linlithgow-Queensferry is 9.8 miles, Deans is 11.1 miles. Not a massive difference, surely.

 

[overthewater]

According to Google, Linlithgow-Queensferry is 9.8 miles, Deans is 11.1 miles. Not a massive difference, surely.

At least 2 journeys started and ended at Bo'ness, these disappeared once it changed. Also all journeys were tt to operated to linlithgow. Linlithgow give change, livingston did not. Livingston took the nice new buses for itself and throw any old crap out onto the 43 including some awful high floor single deckers. Someone kick up a stink and some staff left etc.

Wait a sec didn't the No43 move to the Livingston depot in the first place back in the early 00s? when Westfield shut... and it was moved to linlithgow?

 

[In Focus]

At least 2 journeys started and ended at Bo'ness, these disappeared once it changed. Also all journeys were tt to operated to linlithgow. Linlithgow give change, livingston did not. Livingston took the nice new buses for itself and throw any old crap out onto the 43 including some awful high floor single deckers. Someone kick up a stink and some staff left etc.

Wait a sec didn't the No43 move to the Livingston depot in the first place back in the early 00s? when Westfield shut... and it was moved to linlithgow?

It went to Westfield for a while.

 

[TheEastCoaster]

The Lothian City brand is worrying if it indicates an intention to detach East and Midlothian from the flat fare zone, which I think would be a bad idea.

Maybe so but then again both the 139/140 are run under East Coast Buses and both have a flat fare on their routes, I can’t say the 43 would work being 1.70 the entire route despite it being shorter than the 33/44 which run for over 2 hours, though the ridacard benefit is perfect and the citywest dayticket is only a pound more than the regular city dayticket so it’s not like it’s extortionate by any means, and when Lothian Country finally expand to Kirkliston they will have the same benefit as Queensferry residents

 

[tbtc]

Maybe not - the 43 surely wouldn't be profitable using Lothian City fares. But a few Midlothian routes must be quite marginal too. How about....a variety of routes presently thought of as having a Lothian City brand, but serving historically out-of-town areas, joining the 43. Becoming a Lothian Country 'Lite' brigade, if you like. Examples might be the 37, 47, 29, 33 and 49.

These would charge higher fares for places like Penicuik or Dalkeith, for example the £2.70 single and £5 day ticket, but maybe accepting standard Ridacards similar to the CityWEST arrangement. Might raise eyebrows for exploiting a monopoly, as there's little competition in Midlothian.

Don't know if it's likely - just thinking out loud, as you'd identified that the 43 is rather out on a limb.

At least if Lothian do do this (and I'm not saying they will or should), the city bypass provides a natural boundary for the increased fares to apply over - what would be difficult would be applying it to a route like the 26 where the route passes through pretty much uninterrupted built up areas from Seaton Sands into Edinburgh - you'd feel pretty annoyed if the passengers one or two stops closer to town were paying £1.70 whilst you were having to pay £2.70, but the big gap caused by the bypass would at least stop that from being as much of an issue on routes like the 3/15/33/37/47/49/67.

Midlothian shows up the downside of flat fares. By any reasonable measure Penicuik or Newtongrange into the city for £1.70 is a bargain, and well below the fare for similar distances in any city outside London. But how do you tell people that have grown used to cheap fares that, sorry, we’ve been undercharging you, and your fare needs to go up by a £1? You'd have to be very brave to do it, and I think Lothian at the moment are so addicted to positive spin/PR that they wouldn't go there.

Maybe, for PR reasons, you could do it along the lines of "we are replacing the £1.70 fare with a £1.50 fare inside the City Bypass and a £2.50 fare for crossing the City Bypass", i.e. sell it as a price cut for shorter distance passengers to distract from the increase to longer distance passengers?

The rot set in when Linlithgow depot closed and it was transferred to Livingston, which massively increased operating costs because of the dead mileage

I think it was a bit more complicated than that - as pointed out, the difference in dead mileage was pretty marginal (and the dead mileage is only a fraction of the overall operating costs).

The bigger issue, as I remember it, was the disasterous cross city 88/89 which was South Queensferry/ Silverknowes - Polton Mill/ Gorebridge IIRC (where the Dalkeith buses didn't have the northern destinations on their blinds and the Westfield buses didn't have the southern destinations on their blinds), as First chopped up long established routes like the 129.

I can’t say the 43 would work being 1.70 the entire route despite it being shorter than the 33/44 which run for over 2 hours

I think that the numbers going all the way from Wester Hailes to Gorebridge are pretty insignificant - as I've said on the "Glasgow" thread, offering a cross city fare for a similar price as a journey into the city centre is a fairly cheap way of providing good value to the tiny number of people going on such obscure cross city journeys - I'd only compare the distance into the city centre when looking at fares - by all means say that Balerno/ Seaton Sands ought to be paying higher fares into central Edinburgh but I don't think that the total length of the 33 is an issue here.

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

Maybe, for PR reasons, you could do it along the lines of "we are replacing the £1.70 fare with a £1.50 fare inside the City Bypass and a £2.50 fare for crossing the City Bypass", i.e. sell it as a price cut for shorter distance passengers to distract from the increase to longer distance passengers?

So if a passenger had to go from Dalkeith to Royal Infirmary, they'd have to pay £2.50 vs the £1.70 now? I can't see anyone living in places like Lasswade, Bonnyrigg, Dalkeith, Currie, Balerno and especially Baberton and Juiniper Green being too happy about those price increases and could end up being bad PR for them. Also students at Heriot Watt campus would be annoyed too and of course, if First do plan to tackle some routes, then they could swoop in with the old Lothian fares or even a tad less and hoover up the disgruntled passengers of Lothian.

I think it also equates to a fare stage which LB got rid of to make the fares easier for all.

I do wonder thought why it costs £1.70 to go from Balerno to Wallyford which is about 1hr 50 min yet you can get to St Johns Hospital from City centre in far less time but costs £3.70.

I know that between Riccarton and Mid/East Calder is quiet (I am assuming here) but is that a justifiable reason for them to charge so much more? Would it not be feasible to up the fares to £2.50 from Hermiston/Ratho in to Livingston and beyond? So LCB have 2 stages, City £1.70 and Country £2.50. Or just have one flat fare over the entire network of £1.70 or even £1.80 if they increase (which if it were coming, would be next month). That would mean that Lothian and co would have day tickets the same no matter where you go within the network, and would swing passengers over from First, which of course, would make first do some drastic changing ie match/better Lothian or withdraw putting an end to the competition, which in the end is what I assume LB want.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

So if a passenger had to go from Dalkeith to Royal Infirmary, they'd have to pay £2.50 vs the £1.70 now? I can't see anyone living in places like Lasswade, Bonnyrigg, Dalkeith, Currie, Balerno and especially Baberton and Juiniper Green being too happy about those price increases and could end up being bad PR for them. Also students at Heriot Watt campus would be annoyed too and of course, if First do plan to tackle some routes, then they could swoop in with the old Lothian fares or even a tad less and hoover up the disgruntled passengers of Lothian.

First in Bristol have introduced a flat fare in the city. Aside from the "three stop hop", shorter single fares went from £2 to £2.50 whilst longer fares went from £3 to £2.50 - these are on bus fares, and m-tickets are 50p cheaper across the board.

 

[In Focus]

So if a passenger had to go from Dalkeith to Royal Infirmary, they'd have to pay £2.50 vs the £1.70 now? I can't see anyone living in places like Lasswade, Bonnyrigg, Dalkeith, Currie, Balerno and especially Baberton and Juiniper Green being too happy about those price increases and could end up being bad PR for them. Also students at Heriot Watt campus would be annoyed too and of course, if First do plan to tackle some routes, then they could swoop in with the old Lothian fares or even a tad less and hoover up the disgruntled passengers of Lothian.

I think it also equates to a fare stage which LB got rid of to make the fares easier for all.

I do wonder thought why it costs £1.70 to go from Balerno to Wallyford which is about 1hr 50 min yet you can get to St Johns Hospital from City centre in far less time but costs £3.70.

I know that between Riccarton and Mid/East Calder is quiet (I am assuming here) but is that a justifiable reason for them to charge so much more? Would it not be feasible to up the fares to £2.50 from Hermiston/Ratho in to Livingston and beyond? So LCB have 2 stages, City £1.70 and Country £2.50. Or just have one flat fare over the entire network of £1.70 or even £1.80 if they increase (which if it were coming, would be next month). That would mean that Lothian and co would have day tickets the same no matter where you go within the network, and would swing passengers over from First, which of course, would make first do some drastic changing ie match/better Lothian or withdraw putting an end to the competition, which in the end is what I assume LB want.

I would say Firsts fare revision on Monday 24th has set another bar for LCB and their pricing strategy, £21.50 for 7 days unlimited LM zone (on Mticket),£24 on bus, £17 50 for 8 days unlimited travel on Lzone (Mticket) £18.00 on bus. £82 for a 28 day LM zone (Mticket) ,£14 for unlimited family network ticket . You would expect LCB to have a revision of fares soon .
All good for West Lothian passengers .

 

[Darklord8899]

Maybe not - the 43 surely wouldn't be profitable using Lothian City fares.

Maybe you didnt see, but i did say, keep the City West zone for CASH fares
Ridacard is accepted and is valid from Queensferry to Edinburgh at no extra cost already
So the fares wouldn't be any different as a Lothian City service from LCB fares just now

 

[tbtc]

So if a passenger had to go from Dalkeith to Royal Infirmary, they'd have to pay £2.50 vs the £1.70 now? I can't see anyone living in places like Lasswade, Bonnyrigg, Dalkeith, Currie, Balerno and especially Baberton and Juiniper Green being too happy about those price increases and could end up being bad PR for them. Also students at Heriot Watt campus would be annoyed too and of course, if First do plan to tackle some routes, then they could swoop in with the old Lothian fares or even a tad less and hoover up the disgruntled passengers of Lothian.

I think it also equates to a fare stage which LB got rid of to make the fares easier for all.

I do wonder thought why it costs £1.70 to go from Balerno to Wallyford which is about 1hr 50 min yet you can get to St Johns Hospital from City centre in far less time but costs £3.70.

I know that between Riccarton and Mid/East Calder is quiet (I am assuming here) but is that a justifiable reason for them to charge so much more? Would it not be feasible to up the fares to £2.50 from Hermiston/Ratho in to Livingston and beyond? So LCB have 2 stages, City £1.70 and Country £2.50. Or just have one flat fare over the entire network of £1.70 or even £1.80 if they increase (which if it were coming, would be next month). That would mean that Lothian and co would have day tickets the same no matter where you go within the network, and would swing passengers over from First, which of course, would make first do some drastic changing ie match/better Lothian or withdraw putting an end to the competition, which in the end is what I assume LB want.

Yes - that's exactly what I'm saying. We've got passengers accepting paying £4.50 to get to the Airport and you think that £2.50 is too much for journeys like Balerno/ Bonnyrigg into central Edinburgh?

If Lothian ever move away from the current flat fare on "City" services (which, as we know, includes Balerno/ Penicuik/ Gorebridge/ Wallyford/ Seaton Sands etc) then the city bypass seems a fairly logical divide to have for the increased fares.

Of course it won't be popular (which is why I'd suggest it goes hand in hand with a slight reduction for fares wholly inside the bypass, so the majority of passengers benefit), but people in most other big cities would be paying more than £2.50 for journeys like Penicuik - Edinburgh.

The alternative (if you are moving away from the current flat fares on all maroon services) would be to have some big jumps for only going one extra stop and bringing confusion to a passenger base used to simple fares - it's simple with the bypass - there's no complications over what is/isn't a fare stage - often there's such a long unappealing walk from one side of the A720 to the other that passengers would be unlikely to try gaming the system.

What's your alternative?

 

[overthewater]

Why not do what Service 113 did and have A, B, C zone, so if you travel within 1 or 2 zones is £1.70 if you cross all three is £2.50 Thus people traveling to ERI from Rosewell would only pay cheaper rate.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Why not do what Service 113 did and have A, B, C zone, so if you travel within 1 or 2 zones is £1.70 if you cross all three is £2.50 Thus people traveling to ERI from Rosewell would only pay cheaper rate.

That still wouldn't sit right with pax.

One of the reasons non-ridacard travellers like the low fair is the bargain price to go a trip into town!

 

[overthewater]

Its is the only thing that can compete with the train..

 

[SpeedbirdA350]

Yes - that's exactly what I'm saying. We've got passengers accepting paying £4.50 to get to the Airport and you think that £2.50 is too much for journeys like Balerno/ Bonnyrigg into central Edinburgh?

If Lothian ever move away from the current flat fare on "City" services (which, as we know, includes Balerno/ Penicuik/ Gorebridge/ Wallyford/ Seaton Sands etc) then the city bypass seems a fairly logical divide to have for the increased fares.

Of course it won't be popular (which is why I'd suggest it goes hand in hand with a slight reduction for fares wholly inside the bypass, so the majority of passengers benefit), but people in most other big cities would be paying more than £2.50 for journeys like Penicuik - Edinburgh.

The alternative (if you are moving away from the current flat fares on all maroon services) would be to have some big jumps for only going one extra stop and bringing confusion to a passenger base used to simple fares - it's simple with the bypass - there's no complications over what is/isn't a fare stage - often there's such a long unappealing walk from one side of the A720 to the other that passengers would be unlikely to try gaming the system.

What's your alternative?

I already gave mine. Either have a £1.70 city / £2.50 country fare on LCB after Ratho/Balerno, you'd up the fee, or have one flat rate for the entire network (ECB, LB, LCB) of £1.80 with day tickets costing £5 which would be useful for those getting more than 2 buses and those tickets can be used on ANY service within the network (exc airport or other special services).

The reduction for city you suggest is all very well for those living in the city but for those who live just at the other side of the A720 who get charged £1.70 right now would not be pleased if it were to suddenly rocket up by 80p (to and from work mon - fri is an extra £8 per week for no improvement in their service). It is why I think in the end of it were £1.80 flat rate with £5 day ticket, would be more palatable. I would assume if you upped the price by 80p, more would want to drive in, especially in the first few weeks, and forego the bus. Then there is the ridacard holders. Would they get a rebate if they only used city buses (for those who pay monthly/yearly)? How would that be worked out?

Another good reason for making it £1.80 flat over the entire network is you could easily roll out the ridacard on ALL services, as there would not be 2, 3 or 4 tiers.It would ALSO give First a nod as LB would be cheaper and not by a small amount either so more pax would be heading to LB.

As I said before, there is no good reason to charge £3.80 to go from City to St Johns H when I can do a journey on the 44 or 26 end to end for £1.70 which is longer in terms of miles travelled and time on board, but to up the fares for those on existing routes (44, 26, 33, 3, etc..) who live not far from the other side of the A720 would not be welcomed for no improvement to their services.

 

[Siemens Trains]

Maybe you didnt see, but i did say, keep the City West zone for CASH fares
Ridacard is accepted and is valid from Queensferry to Edinburgh at no extra cost already
So the fares wouldn't be any different as a Lothian City service from LCB fares just now

Ah, I see what you mean - use red buses on the 43 route but charge higher fares for this route only, while every other red bus route in the City of Edinburgh Council area (including the 63) has lower fares. While this resolves some inconsistencies for depot operations, I'd say it was a bit of a non-starter for explaining to passengers/customers, and would be read as insulting by Queensferry people. Furthermore it would become more difficult to argue against asking each concession pass holder for their destination on all red buses, and maybe also printing off tickets for them.

Speaking as someone who lives in Queensferry, everyone here is quite happy with the green 43, and comfortable with the £2.70 fare as well. Inclusion in the standard Ridacard is icing on the cake. The fact that the service runs from Central is lost on most users. For virtually every cross-zone journey the fare is still less than we paid under First's mystery fare scheme several years ago, so I don't go along with those advocating a return to fare stages. Off-peak discounts have gone, but these were never very successful anyway. Also, the buses run pretty close to (sensible) routes and times, rather than the mystery tours and random appearances we had from Stagecoach.

 

[GusB]

Speaking as someone who lives in Queensferry, everyone here is quite happy with the green 43, and comfortable with the £2.70 fare as well. Inclusion in the standard Ridacard is icing on the cake. The fact that the service runs from Central is lost on most users. For virtually every cross-zone journey the fare is still less than we paid under First's mystery fare scheme several years ago, so I don't go along with those advocating a return to fare stages. Off-peak discounts have gone, but these were never very successful anyway. Also, the buses run pretty close to (sensible) routes and times, rather than the mystery tours and random appearances we had from Stagecoach.

If I could travel on a journey of that length for only £2.70, I'd be very happy indeed. The same distance with my local operator is £4.70.

 

[oldman]

There is no sense in getting rid of the existing flat fare zone - it would create delay and complexity, cause anomalies for short journeys (Gilmerton-Dobbies), encourage more on-street park and riding, and in terms of the whole LothianCity network generate little extra net revenue. Leave well alone.

Queensferry is a bit of an anomaly and would probably be in the flat fare zone if Lothian had started to run there after deregulation, but it requires a separate service and the extra fare is modest for most people.

One you get out of the city, passenger numbers are lower and there needs to be graduated fares. Some of the East and West Lothian zone issues (Tranent-Ormiston) could be helped by having some overlaps between zones, but the mystery is the reluctance to offer season tickets. You would have to set up a system for selling them online, but it's not that difficult and it would be useful for people in the city as well not to have to go to Waverley Bridge to buy one.

 

[overthewater]

Muss depot has a travel shop...