West Lothian buses

[In Focus]

I'm not certain whether you don't understand, or simply choose not to?

I will let you work that one out

 

[In Focus]

Lothian are "INVESTING" in excess £6 million, the Lothian press release doesn't state "LOST" £6 million - that gem you've added yourself...…

Have they not now "invested " it. ?
You really think they have set all this up for nothing and still have this to "invest" ?
You really think they are covering their weekly running costs with the amount they are lifting?
Buses running around at 10% capacity cannot cover their costs.

 

[In Focus]

As for imagining up to £10 million losses now...… ‍*Face Palm*. It costs approx. £100k a year to run a bus with nil

6 million invested and its costing a small fortune over the 9 months as buses are not even close to covering their costs .
Not sure I said they have lost 10 million but as a ballpark figure for what they have spent setting this up and operating costs it wont be far short ,wonder how much income they have taken against expenditure ?
It actually costs £120,000 per year

 

[winston270twm]

6 million invested and its costing a small fortune over the 9 months as buses are not even close to covering their costs .
Not sure I said they have lost 10 million but as a ballpark figure for what they have spent setting this up and operating costs it wont be far short ,wonder how much income they have taken against expenditure ?
It actually costs £120,000 per year

I said approx £100k, this figure varies at each operator dependant on local costs / set-up.​

Have they not now "invested " it. ?
You really think they have set all this up for nothing and still have this to "invest" ?
You really think they are covering their weekly running costs with the amount they are lifting?
Buses running around at 10% capacity cannot cover their costs.

You win, this is now becoming painful. You clearly know more than the rest of us.

 

[smtglasgow]

Thinking about LCB, are there other examples of such a bold competitive move since deregulation? Can think of plenty of occasions of individual routes being introduced, but a whole network, including brand new coaches? If it has happened, did it succeed?

Re: Lothian’s investment in West Lothian. It might not seem ‘fair’ that Lothian appears to have a bottomless pit of money at the moment (and I’m including the huge investment in the city operations and on new fleet in East Lothian), but the whole Lothian ‘group’ is profitable and is blessed with one of the most benign bus markets in the UK. Not only can they afford to invest, they'll have no trouble finding institutions willing to lend. I've always doubted that there is much money to be made in West Lothian, but Lothian obviously see opportunities for growth - probably based around Edinburgh's long-term expansion towards the west.

 

[Jordan Adam]

Thinking about LCB, are there other examples of such a bold competitive move since deregulation? Can think of plenty of occasions of individual routes being introduced, but a whole network, including brand new coaches? If it has happened, did it succeed?

Perhaps less "friendly" but Stagecoach had a reputation for being rather brutal at times in the 90s, especially down in the south.

but the whole Lothian ‘group’ is profitable

If you took away the tax payer funding they get through the councils they'd just about break even.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

I will let you work that one out

I think you actually KNOW the reality but choose not to as you have some bizarre anti-Lothian fixation that means you deliberately choose to misinterpret figures.

6 million invested and its costing a small fortune over the 9 months as buses are not even close to covering their costs .
Not sure I said they have lost 10 million but as a ballpark figure for what they have spent setting this up and operating costs it wont be far short ,wonder how much income they have taken against expenditure ?
It actually costs £120,000 per year

I assume that you are a home owner? Let's say you have spent £150k on the house (consisting of £15k deposit plus a mortgage). Then you spend on furnishings and appliances (say £10k). Then you have the running costs of council tax (£1k), mortgage repayments (£7k), utilities (£4k) etc. You have invested £160k. You haven't lost £160k.

If you lose your job, you then have to sell up and move back into your parent's house and the back bedroom. You sell the house, get your £150k back but the furnishings and appliances are now virtuall worthless and you've the money that you spent on your running costs. You've lost £22k.

Are you getting it yet?

In response to your comments to Winston, we all know they are not covering costs. This has been stated several times. They have doubtless budgeted to LOSE money whilst establishing this operation. How much and for how long will be something that they know and you don't.

Is this such a difficult concept to understand?

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

Thinking about LCB, are there other examples of such a bold competitive move since deregulation? Can think of plenty of occasions of individual routes being introduced, but a whole network, including brand new coaches? If it has happened, did it succeed?

Re: Lothian’s investment in West Lothian. It might not seem ‘fair’ that Lothian appears to have a bottomless pit of money at the moment (and I’m including the huge investment in the city operations and on new fleet in East Lothian), but the whole Lothian ‘group’ is profitable and is blessed with one of the most benign bus markets in the UK. Not only can they afford to invest, they'll have no trouble finding institutions willing to lend. I've always doubted that there is much money to be made in West Lothian, but Lothian obviously see opportunities for growth - probably based around Edinburgh's long-term expansion towards the west.

Darlington - where the local municipal operator was put up for sale. Stagecoach failed in their bid (ironically Yorkshire Traction being made the preferred bidder) so they introduced a full copycat network with vehicles drafted in (including 10 brand new Volvo B6s) and enticed the drivers away; DTC folded three days later.

Plymouth where First were the "country" operator and Plymouth Citybus were the main city firm. First launched a full out attack with nearly new Eclipses drafted in from Bath, Bradford, Manchester as well as some older vehicles. PCB sold out to Go Ahead, and eventually turned the tables on First who could no longer sustain the losses.

Poole - where Badgerline and Southern Vectis (teamed up) to form BadgerVectis and set up a new network of minibuses and Bristol REs to compete with Wilts and Dorset who had a traditional network of Bristol VRs etc. W&D fought back by purchasing a large batch of MCW Metroriders and BadgerVectis ceased ignominiously

Inverness - where Stagecoach bought Alexander North East (no connection with the SBG - who had purchased Inverness Traction) and then launched a bigger network that effectively displaced Highland from the city routes and out to Nairn/Tain.

There's quite a few

 

[awsnews]

No one has confirmed where the extra buses for West Lothian are coming from, just that Balfron/Larbet have 12 surplus to requirement soon, but mostly likely near they'll be end of life ex schools buses.

The buses used at Balfron for schools are generally used on the normal services as well so aren't in the end of life category. Depending on the utilisation there may not be a direct correlation between reduction in school contracts and surplus vehicles.

 

[Jordan Adam]

The buses used at Balfron for schools are generally used on the normal services as well so aren't in the end of life category. Depending on the utilisation there may not be a direct correlation between reduction in school contracts and surplus vehicles.

Mostly 14 year old deckers, so they're approaching end of life.

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

The buses used at Balfron for schools are generally used on the normal services as well so aren't in the end of life category. Depending on the utilisation there may not be a direct correlation between reduction in school contracts and surplus vehicles.

Mostly 14 year old deckers, so they're approaching end of life.

I guess the question is whether such vehicles would move directly to Livingston or if they were to move elsewhere in order to allow something newer to move? Even at 14 years of age, they will still have c.3 years of depreciation having to be accounted for, but we're getting a little ahead of ourselves.

Need to understand how many additional vehicles will be required, and then see what they might be.

 

[Bluebirdscot66]

If first are going to take Lothian on I would hope they have planned to use something that’s not almost life expired ( and not a streetlight ) anything like that and there’s just no point .

 

[Gingerbus1991]

I think many for now need to offer West Lothian services from First and LB some breathing space, Rome wasn't built overnight.

Competition in any area is not forbidden regardless of company.

 

[In Focus]

600 Service being extended to take in Whitburn ,Blackburn Seafield and into Edinburgh Airport from May.
Obviously to go in competition with 275 service offering a quicker service to Livingston ,Broxburn and also going into Airport.

 

[In Focus]

I guess the question is whether such vehicles would move directly to Livingston or if they were to move elsewhere in order to allow something newer to move? Even at 14 years of age, they will still have c.3 years of depreciation having to be accounted for, but we're getting a little ahead of ourselves.

Need to understand how many additional vehicles will be required, and then see what they might be.

At this point it will only be around 7 vehicles.

 

[overthewater]

They have no confa

600 Service being extended to take in Whitburn ,Blackburn Seafield and into Edinburgh Airport from May.
Obviously to go in competition with 275 service offering a quicker service to Livingston ,Broxburn and also going into Airport.

Horsburgh did this before and it was pointless.. Mind you there should make it every 30mins and replace the 22..

 

[In Focus]

They have no confa


Horsburgh did this before and it was pointless.. Mind you there should make it every 30mins and replace the 22..

It wont replace the 22 I dont think ,more compliment it and add numbers.
As I said in another post First aim to have a 5 minute service to centre from all the main areas around West Lothian

 

[TheGrandWazoo]

They have no confa

That similar to covfefe???

 

[overthewater]

It wont replace the 22 I dont think ,more compliment it and add numbers.
As I said in another post First aim to have a 5 minute service to centre from all the main areas around West Lothian

Will renumber 600 to 22 and bobs your uncle, 600 really NEEDs to be every 30mins..

That similar to covfefe???

It was from a post easier were I was going to say there have no confidence at LCB, I can't remember why. Also if those buses from balfron come back, there will end there working lives where there started.

 

[In Focus]

Will renumber 600 to 22 and bobs your uncle, 600 really NEEDs to be every 30mins..

No it wont be renumbered, another 2 ADL vehicles being repainted in the 600 graphics .

 

[overthewater]

So what on earth is Javis going to say a week today then?

 

[OmniCity999]

So what on earth is Javis going to say a week today then?

"We're buying Lothian Buses..."

could you imagine.

 

[overthewater]

No... What a draft thing to say, the council would never sell it off.

 

[OmniCity999]

It was on the cards briefly in 2017.

Lothian is the councils biggest asset and could make them quite the pretty penny.

 

[overthewater]

Only a very foolish and courageous politician would dare to try...

 

[Lothian_Bus]

Thinking about LCB, are there other examples of such a bold competitive move since deregulation? Can think of plenty of occasions of individual routes being introduced, but a whole network, including brand new coaches? If it has happened, did it succeed?

Re: Lothian’s investment in West Lothian. It might not seem ‘fair’ that Lothian appears to have a bottomless pit of money at the moment (and I’m including the huge investment in the city operations and on new fleet in East Lothian), but the whole Lothian ‘group’ is profitable and is blessed with one of the most benign bus markets in the UK. Not only can they afford to invest, they'll have no trouble finding institutions willing to lend. I've always doubted that there is much money to be made in West Lothian, but Lothian obviously see opportunities for growth - probably based around Edinburgh's long-term expansion towards the west.

First's expansion in Edinburgh in 2000 / 2001 is worth a mention. Whilst some routes such as the 66 (renumbered to match Lothian's 44) and 86 were already established they made a very aggressive move to copy Lothian's 11 and 22 services. I am sure there was another route they also went after but would need to check.

Edit. They also copied the Lothian service 23.

 

[Gingerbus1991]

Edinburgh selling Lothian off would create the delight tat we see in Dundee, Aberdeen and Glasgow nowadays...a half effort with everything done to the absolute minimum.

 

[Siemens Trains]

First's expansion in Edinburgh in 2000 / 2001 is worth a mention. Whilst some routes such as the 66 (renumbered to match Lothian's 44) and 86 were already established they made a very aggressive move to copy Lothian's 11 and 22 services. I am sure there was another route they also went after but would need to check.

Edit. They also copied the Lothian service 23.

Yes, I recall the 23 as well. Didn't think the 86 matched an existing LRT number or single route. Wasn't it like half of the 3 and half of the 26? Or was the limited stop LRT 86 still running between Eastfield and Clermiston at that time? First ran a 129 from Silverknowes to Princes St, then out to Seton Sands, but again not an identical route or number copy.

 

[Lothian_Bus]

Yes, I recall the 23 as well. Didn't think the 86 matched an existing LRT number or single route. Wasn't it like half of the 3 and half of the 26? Or was the limited stop LRT 86 still running between Eastfield and Clermiston at that time? First ran a 129 from Silverknowes to Princes St, then out to Seton Sands, but again not an identical route or number copy.

You are correct about the 86. It was established in the late 80's and was a cross between the Lothian 26 (or 86 which Lothian also had at the time and which I believe is why First chose the 86 number) and the Lothian 3, albeit a slightly different route.

 

[alchemy]

You are correct about the 86. It was established in the late 80's and was a cross between the Lothian 26 (or 86 which Lothian also had at the time and which I believe is why First chose the 86 number) and the Lothian 3, albeit a slightly different route.

If I remember correctly the 86 ran from Birkenside to St Andrew Square it was then extended to Haymarket or Charlotte Square and then when the competition heated up was further extended to Clermiston. Not sure if it went to Clerwood but I don't think so