Lothian Group discussion (Lothian City, Lothian Country Bus and East Coast Buses)

GusB

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New thread to discuss the service bus operations of Lothian Buses and subsidiaries - continuation of this thread:
 
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tbtc

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Okay, to get the ball rolling... *IF* Marine were ever to shut (if...), and capacity at Newbridge for "city" services, how would you reorganise services?

Would the 19/42 still terminate around Kings Road (if it's no longer a convenient place for shifts/ driver swaps)?

A general shift of "Marine to Central" / "Central to Longstone" / "Longstone to Newbridge"?
 
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Okay, to get the ball rolling... *IF* Marine were ever to shut (if...), and capacity at Newbridge for "city" services, how would you reorganise services?

Would the 19/42 still terminate around Kings Road (if it's no longer a convenient place for shifts/ driver swaps)?
19 would probably do it’s pre-Covid planned peak time loop around Craigentinny all the time.

42 is a little bit trickier. It would probably need to do a similar loop or be cut short a little. Roundabout in Baileyfield industrial estate if it’s still there could work but obviously King’s Road would be missed (not that it was ever busy on the 42).

Within the next few years if CEC get what they want it will likely involve a massive route restructure to make sure nothing significantly duplicates the trams. Eg 22 possibly drastically changed, 16 altered away from Commercial St etc.


I’m guessing 201-215 are returning at the weekend, 441-450 as well as 579-590 returning from West Lothian and some of the B7RLE’s might too certainly until the new stock enters service.
 

CN04NRJ

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19 would probably do it’s pre-Covid planned peak time loop around Craigentinny all the time.

42 is a little bit trickier. It would probably need to do a similar loop or be cut short a little. Roundabout in Baileyfield industrial estate if it’s still there could work but obviously King’s Road would be missed (not that it was ever busy on the 42).

Within the next few years if CEC get what they want it will likely involve a massive route restructure to make sure nothing significantly duplicates the trams. Eg 22 possibly drastically changed, 16 altered away from Commercial St etc.


I’m guessing 201-215 are returning at the weekend, and some of the B7RLE’s might too certainly until the new stock enters service.

Some E400s have moved from Marine to Central and there's at least two B7RLEs (141 and 166) at Longstone at the moment that look like they're being prepared for service.

I'd assume that Marine will be getting their 7900s back at some stage, unless there's enough 60/13 plate B7RLEs to cover their single deck PVR.
 

OmniCity999

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Some E400s have moved from Marine to Central and there's at least two B7RLEs (141 and 166) at Longstone at the moment that look like they're being prepared for service.

I'd assume that Marine will be getting their 7900s back at some stage, unless there's enough 60/13 plate B7RLEs to cover their single deck PVR.
Eventually Marine will have all 7900's in their single deck fleet when Longstone gets its new singles.

Marine isn't closing.
 

CN04NRJ

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Eventually Marine will have all 7900's in their single deck fleet when Longstone gets its new singles.

Marine isn't closing.

Will 171-175 move to Longstone in exchange for 7900s going to Marine?

Guessing there'll be alot of movement between now and Sunday with Marine reopening, routes moving garages and the tours going to Marine. Must be a logistical nightmare for those handling it!
 
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19 would probably do it’s pre-Covid planned peak time loop around Craigentinny all the time.

42 is a little bit trickier. It would probably need to do a similar loop or be cut short a little. Roundabout in Baileyfield industrial estate if it’s still there could work but obviously King’s Road would be missed (not that it was ever busy on the 42).

I remember the 42 turning short at Baileyfield Roundabout in some evening journeys a few years ago, i was confused as to why those 42’s said Portobello instead of Kings Road at First but then it made more sense, and for the record it was not a bad place for a terminus within Portobello!

Actually what confuses me still is why the 42 Blinds still Say Kings Road, when the timetables and app say Portobello, I know it’s the same place but still, when the old 40 ran from Penicuik to Kings Road it still said Portobello on the blinds, I get that we all know Kings Road means Portobello and plenty of locals and folk who travel there all the time know it too, but if you ask me Portobello makes more sense for destination blinds!

The 19 makes more sense as it dosnt actually step foot in Portobello, however i’d be willing to go as far as say Craigentinny would make for a more appropriate destination blind, or Marine even though the garage dosn‘t have a bus stop
 

OmniCity999

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Will 171-175 move to Longstone in exchange for 7900s going to Marine?

Guessing there'll be alot of movement between now and Sunday with Marine reopening, routes moving garages and the tours going to Marine. Must be a logistical nightmare for those handling it!
You say logistical nightmare, I say overtime!

Believe the idea is for marine and central to have all the 7900's with the possibility of a couple of B7RLE's.
 

SpeedbirdA350

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Does anyone know why 1126 (SB19 GLK), 1127 (SB19 GLY) and 1128 (SB19 GLY) have been debranded from Airlink100?
Lothian need 8 buses on the road for an every 12 minutes service with a few spare for Airlink 100. They did not need 15, so taking Airlink down to 12 means they can put 3 in the main service use.
 
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BDC86F59-BDEE-470E-807F-E5A815D7128B.jpegE8DA0B21-25E3-447C-8ADE-704268DF164C.jpeg
Couldn’t help but notice that LCB have either slightly altered the Fare Zone or maybe made a mistake

Photo reference
(Updated one above, with Seafield in CountryWest A, and Longridge in CountryWest C)

(Updated one below, Seafield in CountryWest B and Longridge although not served by LCB at that point (except for Christmas 2019 by X18 extension) is shown to be in CountryWest B)
 

buslad1988

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Permanent until it's not anymore :lol:
Exactly! People keep asking if particular things are permanent but really nothing is at the moment - and probably won’t be for the rest of this year atleast. Expect we’re going to see fleet and service changes quite frequently for some time to come.
 

overthewater

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Exactly! People keep asking if particular things are permanent but really nothing is at the moment - and probably won’t be for the rest of this year atleast. Expect we’re going to see fleet and service changes quite frequently for some time to come.

Why is Lothian different to every other company? everyone else is back to normal service, and if any routes they didn't like have been given the chop. The scottish Gov is still paying them to balance the books until Nov or even Dec? I think that is it till at least xmas.
 

CN04NRJ

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Why is Lothian different to every other company? everyone else is back to normal service, and if any routes they didn't like have been given the chop. The scottish Gov is still paying them to balance the books until Nov or even Dec? I think that is it till at least xmas.

Because comparing a full Lothian City service to a full FSE or Scottish Stagecoach services is like chalk and cheese. There's no comparison - they're entirely different operations with differences in PVR by the order of hundreds and even higher differences in staff numbers!

Night buses are returning next week with the service enhanced again - yet in other parts of the country like South Wales Stagecoach are packing up around 8pm. There's been no Sunday service for Stagecoach Cymru until next week since March across their whole network!

I don't understand why you are so consistently negative?
 

overthewater

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Your talking about a different country, I mean Scotland, hence the ref to the scottish Government. You mist out First Glasgow which has return to near normal levels that would be a comparison to lothian, but instead you pick a different county and a company that isn't in a city, which may have in fact had different Criteria from its goverment for which services should operate.
 

buslad1988

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Exactly! People keep asking if particular things are permanent but really nothing is at the moment - and probably won’t be for the rest of this year atleast. Expect we’re going to see fleet and service changes quite frequently for some time to come.
Why is Lothian different to every other company? everyone else is back to normal service, and if any routes they didn't like have been given the chop. The scottish Gov is still paying them to balance the books until Nov or even Dec? I think that is it till at least xmas.
I think the key aim at the moment is purely to balance the books and keep the company on its feet (and staff in jobs) - the same goes for numerous operators UK wide.

The sheer scale of Lothian even at these “near normal” levels you’re still talking of PVR’s massively reduced. For example services every 10-12 mins instead of every 7-8 mins may not sound like much but average say 3-4 buses per route (across each route on the network) and that’s quite some surplus they still have... hence why it’s taken this long for Marine to re-open. If it wasn’t for issues in regard to car parking etc in garages they’d of probably kept it shut a wee bit longer.

This game is going to keep changing (exactly the same as the rules are) and they’re reacting as/when they can - hence constant monitoring of passenger loadings etc. Most offices aren’t even open yet! Nightlife, tourism, uni’s aren’t up to full strength. There certainly isn’t any point in them fully returning to normal for some time.

Roadworks and traffic are also hampering efforts too - but that’s a whole other topic!
 

Swanny200

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I would imagine that even when the Uni's open back up that numbers on the nightbuses will be well down on usual, nightclubs are still not allowed to open so apart from city centre bars with outside seating such as on the Grassmarket and Cowgate (albeit with limited numbers because of social distancing) there will be a distinct lack of nightlife in Edinburgh, we also have to wonder if Uni students on campus at the likes of Heriot Watt etc... will have restrictions put on them to maintain a Covid-safe environment.
 

overthewater

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I don't understand why you are so consistently negative?

First off why is it negative to say, Lothian should have some stability for the next few months? ie let give everyone time to get used to everything so people can get comfortable, instead of causing further confusion. All I see is If you don't agree with the Lothian way, your just bad/ negative/ hater/ just dont know what your on about. For me to say I don't expect any more changes for a few months is bad thing to say? That would be rather positive? buslad1988 has made a few other points while typing this, however most routes will have they main daytime service reinstated on 12th, and surly they should be left alone for the rest of the year, as he said, nightlife, tourism, uni’s aren’t up to full strength. so leave them be and let it be stable.

I have also complained about First back in the day in this post, but this is been edited out by the mods, this would have highlighted how I was not impressed with poor operations.

It isn't Negative when your disappointed at what should have been A: A very easy challenge and B: Complete mis-management of what has happened over the last two years. Where are the Green arrows? Why wasn't X38 started in Aug 2018, Its failures have outweighed its successes and it's wasted so much money for what? and still will not give passengers a proper weekly ticket. IF the company had budget for such big losses ( the goal posts keep on moving on that point) then proper weekly ticket shouldn't have been an issues. Everytime you highlight issues with routes that get started you get shot down for being " bad/ negative/ hater/ just dont know what your on about" even if you give proper explanation as to why its not a good move. Sad truth is people don't want to believe Lothain has fault and made mistakes, instead people should be saying yes there a problem lets makes changes to get it better.

The good times are gone, and lothian has now joined the rest of the scottish bus industry in having to tighten its belt, its taken long enough. They didn't change the management because oh well it's time for someone else to have some fun, Hall was pushed out because books were not adding up and too much money was being wasted. They will be further fleet selloffs, there will be further minor trimming to the network, ( remember this has already started before covid) They could shut Seafield and move it newbridge, you could shut deans and move nearly all the operations to back Newbridge, longstone and for the no43 - Central, the way things are going.

I dont believe Lothian should be praise for carbon copying other companies routes, that doesn't make them a leader that just makes the a follower and that isn't the Lothian way.

The Simple fact is Lothian should have done alot better over the last two years, its not all sunshine and roses. Complacency is bad, it's wrong and I want Lothian just like First and Stagecoach to be a strong competitive operation, its a hard pill to swallow but it needs it. I hope LCB will continue, but it needs a complete SEA CHANGE: get the X40 council tender, integrating more it's networks to other parts of Edinburgh, etc etc plenty of good ideas out there.

Or should we just say change LCB sogan to Lothian country buses " we copy First bus, it's the best we can do"
 
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CN04NRJ

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Your talking about a different country, I mean Scotland, hence the ref to the scottish Government. You mist out First Glasgow which has return to near normal levels that would be a comparison to lothian, but instead you pick a different county and a company that isn't in a city, which may have in fact had different Criteria from its goverment for which services should operate.

Yes, I deliberately missed out Glasgow as I don't have the knowledge of the area. I was there last Saturday and there seemed to be a good number of buses but I wouldn't know if it was a normal service or not.

My comparison with other parts of the country was to demonstrate that (hopefully in simple terms but it appears I've missed the mark there) different operations of various companies have massive variations in service levels nationwide depending on funding, demand and circumstances. Obviously the funding in Scotland is sufficient to cover a full First or Stagecoach service but not a full pre-covid Lothian service. Besides, until more offices go back to work etc the Scottish government might as well just burn the money than fund a full pre lockdown service.

How would you compare the service levels between Lothian (from next week) and other operators that demonstrably shows that the Lothian service with funding is inferior somehow?
 
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Jordan Adam

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Yes, I deliberately missed out Glasgow as I don't have the knowledge of the area. I was there last Saturday and there seemed to be a good number of buses but I wouldn't know if it was a normal service or not.

My comparison with other parts of the country was to demonstrate that (hopefully in simple terms but it appears I've missed the mark there) different operations of various companies have massive variations in service levels nationwide depending on funding, demand and circumstances. Obviously the funding in Scotland is sufficient to cover a full First or Stagecoach service but not a full pre-covid Lothian service. Besides, until more offices go back to work etc the Scottish government might as well just burn the money than fund a full pre lockdown service.

How would you compare the service levels between Lothian (from next week) and other operators that demonstrably shows that the Lothian service with funding is inferior somehow?

Also, I don't know why you've dragged First into the discussion yet again , I thought this was the Lothian group discussion thread?

Pretty much every operator in Scotland except Lothian is back to a near full service. However Lothian's City network is more "complex" than most other cities with better coverage so them not being on full service yet is to be expected however i have been surprised by how long it's taken them. Even First are reinstating most of the remaining low frequencies services from Monday, despite them saying a few months that they expected to only have 75% service until March 2021 at the earliest.
 

Swanny200

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OTW, I agree that Lothian as a whole should have done a lot better, to be truly honest I think they could have gone after First in the West earlier, First for a long time seemed to think that nobody could touch them in West Lothian, Lothian came in and kicked them in the backside, made them up their game.

Truth is, should this situation not improve with Covid, there will be a lot lost business wise, we are living in times when big business are cutting their staff and in some cases closing completely, this was unexpected and when Lothian launched the motorcoach business (which I still in a way don't understand), expanded to the West, spent money on the Council Yard in Deans as well as the yard in Newbridge, nobody could have foreseen what was going to come.

However it looks from the outside like someone has tried going all guns and it has cost a lot of money, the problem now is, should Lothian sell off Deans, is anyone going to buy it at the moment, or in a years time, Seafield was touted as being sold to a car dealer, I doubt any of the big motor groups would dip into their pocket just now, so either they are going to lose even more money or be stuck with it for the foreseeable.
 

TheGrandWazoo

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Pretty much every operator in Scotland except Lothian is back to a near full service. However Lothian's City network is more "complex" than most other cities with better coverage so them not being on full service yet is to be expected however i have been surprised by how long it's taken them. Even First are reinstating most of the remaining low frequencies services from Monday, despite them saying a few months that they expected to only have 75% service until March 2021 at the earliest.
Yes and you answer the question. Lothian's core network operates with a comprehensive coverage so that if you drop frequencies operating to a 10 min headway to 7/8 mins isn't noticeable with depressed ridership (even with social distancing) whereas dropping a lower frequency service elsewhere (let's say Border Buses so things don't get so tribal) from every 30 mins to every hour is obviously a greater impact.

It's difficult to draw straight comparisons even if it's between Edinburgh and Glasgow.
 

ScotRail158725

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First for a long time seemed to think that nobody could touch them in West Lothian, Lothian came in and kicked them in the backside, made them up their game.
First upped their game before hand and continue to do so, would have happened regardless if Lothian came or not
 

Jordan Adam

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Yes and you answer the question. Lothian's core network operates with a comprehensive coverage so that if you drop frequencies operating to a 10 min headway to 7/8 mins isn't noticeable with depressed ridership (even with social distancing) whereas dropping a lower frequency service elsewhere (let's say Border Buses so things don't get so tribal) from every 30 mins to every hour is obviously a greater impact.

It's difficult to draw straight comparisons even if it's between Edinburgh and Glasgow.

I'm not disputing that. I simply explained why Lothian isn't up to full service yet but added that i'm still surprised by how long it's taken them.
 

CN04NRJ

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I'm not disputing that. I simply explained why Lothian isn't up to full service yet but added that i'm still surprised by how long it's taken them.

An amount of PVR would be extra buses going onto some services during the rush hour (but still maintaining the same frequency) to allow extra time for the pre lockdown traffic. Although the passenger numbers are increasing week on week, road traffic in Edinburgh is still nowhere near what it was.

Some routes like the 36 and 38 are running earlier and later than they were pre lockdown and the 30 is up to every 10 minutes M-S from every 12 pre lockdown - an increase of 4 buses. So it's not all doom and gloom like some posters suggest. Obviously the 36 is down to every 30 minutes overall, but I imagine we'll see that back to every 20 by the end of October.

I don't see the sense in comparing Lothian with First or Stagecoach in any area (except Bristol which is a very similar operating environment).
 

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